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From A to Zerzan

Eugene Weekly 11/11/2021

The Essence of Time is Domestication

Interview 10/31/2021

Speaker 1: So when were it, it's actually a body of 1 from which these arguments come from. To that we have the writings of Freddie Palman, we have Derrick Johnson, Bob Black. Then, of course, Lal Abdul Rahim. And there are some authors indialso. I mean on the same line they have written their works way back 50s and 60s. They have been rediscovered, and some new authors, so part of that body of work is also. Now we are planning to apply it. Also, the history of India. And to open each and every question the basic questions, because right now we're facing a new. I mean we are visavi new set of technologies. To be precise, say artificial intelligence, automation and promises that are being made by the governments about, say, permanent basic income for everybody india too.

Speaker 2: On this.

Speaker 1: So that means. That means that everything everything which is central to our understanding and work notion of work, notion of time, notion of self, notion of nature, all these things are going to be redefined. So that's the juncture we thought that these questions have to be raised again, what do we think? How do we think, and how should we think about time? There is source resource, then they it come in. So whom else can we talk about these things? If not, then with John Jaja because his writings in order to know more about him I.

Speaker 3: Have shared two of his.

Speaker 1: Videos also in the chat in the chat. These two YouTube videos are also a good introduction to his work. And one of the first definitions of time that I read in his works was very simple. In his discussion with Derek Johnson, he. That time doesn't exist. Time does exist as rhythm as sequence, but time as a thread that goes into the events. And out of events at the same time, that time doesn't exist. It's only a creation of. Subdivision of Labor. After our domestication, the time as social resource that came. The same thing I read in the writings of Vikram Nanda. I mean his similar work is on the Donguri Kong tribes in Orissa. I mean how the ways David was introduced among this child people? Then he mentions, then he's. I mean makes this point is very crucial, he says. These domrIcones when they start working as police for the sahib from civilization. Then they notice that there is something called opportunity cost. That means they really. For the first time, that time can be wasted. So there's not something inbuilt in bot in the human. The nature that we noticed that time. Has to be. Saved, and this notion that poisons each and every relationship or say at micro level nasal level or at in long term or short term that not a single minute should be wasted. So this tyranny of time. We definitely will come to know more. Reward it. And also about how to stop this time. The time will be stopped only when let me remember this. A scholar will say that only when there is a community which is based at the center of the community is the say human relationship or our relationship relationship to the nature at the. Center of our life. Only then the time can be stopped, otherwise just inexorable March of time is to any of time. This crisis of time is actually crisis of civilization. And this has to be identified given a proper name and the terms that we use to describe the misery of urban Indian middle class and the future of the stress is actually around these key notions that key notions are. Time poverty and time prosper. By that we mean that normally we define middle class and it's indialso in other places. I guess that a person belongs middle class on the basis of how much does he earn? How good was his education and how good is his career? And the infrastructure infrastructure. But if you want to understand the misery of Indian middle class, then you have to understand that it is the time for working. I mean everything revolves around career or how not to miss and time the fear of fall is the driving is the key fear of the society and therefore. The only reserve is no other reserve than the carrier or the your carrier is only reserved, so that's why all these questions misery of middle class cannot be understood through old language. We need new concepts and new terminologies to understand why this crisis. So that was the reason behind we named this talk. I mean the topic of this talk is the essence of time is civilization and other way around. So this the background to the talk that. I wanted to mention. And then. On each and every 4th Sunday of every month, we are planning to organize stocks. As I told you last stock was by they were. OK. And the name of the. Topic was how shall we feed the. Billions after the collapse of industrial industrial civilization, that was the question that he answered last time one of the lines that I liked, he says that the best agricultural practices are mimicry of forest, mimicry of jungle. That's the best agricultural practice that he practices. Also that is far. So that was the answer given by Dipal Dev, not only through theory but also. Through practice. The next talk I mean today, is the third talk by John John John. The next talk will be given by Lailabdul Rahim from Montreal. We are lucky to have. Him here so she would also inform us something about the next topic. Provisionally, we and then name the topic that different ways of defining domestication. And did domesticate. So she will tell us something about her dog on the next Sunday in November, the last Sunday of November, and then we will move it, move it to the talk by John John. Leila, now you are most welcome to tell us about your topic that you are going to tell us. On the last Sunday of November.

Speaker 6: So hello everyone, hi John.

Speaker 5: Hey Leila.

Speaker 2: So and I see anti tech and here we are on zoom congratulations, I've mastered zoom during this last year so I'll be brief. Basically the past two years I was delving. In to archaeology. In Central Asia, Kazakhstan. Which is now. Basically deemed the. Oldest evidence of the domestication of horses. So I'm working on my on my next book which was on economics of civilization and wilderness and now this research is. Basically like great and hasn't been published yet, so I'll be sharing a little bit from that and a lot of my work on my previous. In my previous books and research on myths of civilization. So how civilization well in civilization? The institutions of knowledge production. Choose to define civilization in very positive and falsified terms. And so we cannot. We cannot liberate ourselves from from these bonds without really looking at the core. The underlying premises in these myths and what archaeology shows us that It’s all faults and what reality it now shows us. It's folks and basically, how do we step into the truth? This will be my talk short summary. Hope it makes sense so come and find out and ask questions.

Speaker 1: Knows what's the. Truth so we are looking forward to your truth. Let me know. On the last Sunday. Of November 2021.

Speaker 2: I was born in the Soviet Union and it was very keen on truth and Pravda, even though also not always very truthful.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's an interesting word in. Any case truth?

Speaker 2: Thank you.

Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you, so now it's Johnston so most welcome John. After a long time. So now house is yours as you say.

Speaker 5: Yeah, after a lot of fooling around on my part, I'm sorry. Well, however remotely It’s wonderful to be here. Robbie Villas, my old friends and this really excellent. Well I just start out with some basics. This thing we called time. How did it become a thing? You know how did time consciousness reify signify? To become a materiality. This happened fairly recently. Not so long ago, there's really no evidence that there was anything to measure that we could call time. Now of course it stands over us. We're acutely aware of it, even if we don't articulate. I did it. And as Augustine said, in the 5th century, I know what time is until somebody comes and asks me tell to tell them what it is, and then he's rather speechless and. I'm paraphrasing that to somewhat well known line from him. Well, it's gathering momentum began, I think with domestication really. The history of alienated humanity is the history of time. The decisive estrangement from the Earth and from each other. Is that move to control that decisive epical shift? Away from taking what nature gives. To controlling nature. Domestication, also known as agriculture. It's also the birth of private property and. Quite promptly thereafter, civilizations. It's all about control. It's about making the Earth work. And I want to put in here a very key text. In my opinion, it's always been quite a lot of importance to me and that is from the later Freud. What is translated into English as civilization and its discontents. The original German, the literal. The name of it is actually. The disquieted culture. And a better translation into English would be domestication and its discontents. Because it's centrally about domestication. Not exactly or precisely civilization itself and the main thrust of it is, which makes this such an important and radical text is that when we. When we domesticate other species, we break a horse, for example. That's the way it's put in English. We tame another species. Those that are that can be domesticated or many that can't be domesticated but you. You establish a different nature. For it But in the case of humans. That doesn't really work very well the domestication. Is is an open? Wound it's a wound that doesn't heal. It's a crippling thing, and it's really the basic source of unhappiness. It's a machine for creating neuroses. We don't get over the trauma of domestication. As we live it every day and that's a profoundly radical thing for someone as bourgeois as Freud to say. But of course he. He wouldn't see the implications of that. That formulation well. Of course we can't get rid of civilization. That would be unthinkable. That was the. That's the unspoken part of it. But of course it can be thought of as something to get rid of. If you want to get rid of neurosis, want to get rid of unhappiness? That's precisely what you. Have to do. I think we can see. The end of the of an entire trajectory. We can make out the end of civilization, I think. Every civilization heretofore has failed, and now there's one globalized integrated civilization under the sign of technology and capital, and pretty much nothing outside its force field. Time and alienation are massive components of this force field. In fact, they're fundamental to civilization and to symbolic culture for that matter. This world of complexity experts specialists hierarchy. Is very much time written. There's nothing much more obvious than that compared to 99% of the span of human species which didn't have these social features. That is. When our existence took place in small scale face to face community. That has banned societies and hunter gatherers. Time is not an evidence in those in that largest period. In other words, though, we did have intelligence, by the way were cooking with fire a million years ago. We had we had a somewhat exquisitely fashioned. Stone tools, for example. This Acheulian handaxe, which dates from about a million years ago, and in Germany, by the way, a few years ago it was discovered. Long hunting Spears. Of the date from 400,000 years ago. Finely balanced crafted Spears, obviously for hunting large animals. And so forth. So this it wasn't. That certainly wasn't that people. Didn't have the intelligence to grasp. What we call times. And as tools make way for technology or systems of technology, our sense of time grows. It's imposed on us. Technology determines this growth. Civilization is a work machine, always more work and technology sets the pace faster, faster. That's exactly the bottom line there, I think and I think it's worth pointing out. We see these claims and I'm using. I'm using the concept of technology in a very rarefied. Answer I. I point that out. I think what we've what we're seeing is a eclipse of political ideology that claims the promises that are made in terms of politics. More and more that's taken over. It's really now the property of technology that makes all these promises and claims it's going to fix everything, right? Well, everything's getting worse, so that's probably the most fundamental lie. Technology will empower everybody. Well, we've never been so disempowered, progressively disempowered. That's another really obvious falsehood there. And how about all the diversity? The cornucopia of otherness that it provides. Well, we live in a more and more and more standardized world by the day. I mean, these are fundamental lies and the other one, of course is how connected we are. We're all connected now via cyberspace on our various screens. Well, the sad truth of it is, it's obvious that we've never been more disconnected. The machines are connected, but how are we actually connected? Well, I'm going to read a little bit here from the Peace of Mind called. What is it called? Yes, time and its discontents. And steal from Freud here a little bit. And back to some basic stuff. With time we confront a philosophical enigma. A psychological mystery. And a puzzle of life. Like not surprisingly, considering the massive reification involved, some have doubted its existence since humanity began distinguishing. Time itself includes, from visible and tangible changes in the world as Michael. Andy put it. There is in the world a great and yet ordinary secret. All of us are part of it. Everyone is aware of it, but very few ever think of it. Most of us just accept it and never wonder over it. This secret is time. Just what is time? Spindler declared that one that no one should. Be allowed to ask. The physicist Richard Feynmanswered don't even ask me, it's just too hard to think about. Empirically, as much as in theory, the laboratory is powerless to reveal the flow of time, since no instrument exists that can register its passage. But why do we have such a strong sense that time does pass intellectually and in one particular direction? If it really doesn't? Why does this illusion have such a hole for us? We might just as well ask why alienation has such a holdovers. The passages of time is intimately familiar. The concept of time mockingly elusive. Why should this appear bizarre in a world whose survival depends? And the mystification of its most basic categories. We have gone along with the substantiation of time so that it seems a fact of nature of power existing in its own right. The growth of a sense of time. The acceptance of time is a process of adaptation to an ever more reified world. It is a constricted dimension. The most elemental aspect of culture. Times inexorable nature provides the ultimate model of domination. The further we go in time. The worse it gets. We inhabit an age of the disintegration of experience, according to Adorno. The pressure of time like that of its essential progenitor, division of Labor fragments and disperses all before it. Uniformity, equivalent separation are byproducts of times harsh force. The intrinsic beauty and meaning of that fragment of the world that is not yet culture moves steadily toward annihilation. Under a singer under a single cultures wide clock. Power occurs association. Assertion that we are not capable of producing a concept of time that is at once cosmological, biological, historical and individual. Fails to notice how they are converging. Concerning this fiction that upholds and accompanies all the forms of imprisonment. The world is filled with propagandalleging its existence. As Bernard Aronson put it so well. All awareness wrote the poet Denise Levertov. Is an awareness of time. Showing just how deeply alienated we are in time. We have become regimented under its empire as time and alienation continue to deepen. Their intrusion, their debasement of everyday life. Does this mean? As David David Carr asks that the struggle of existence is to overcome time itself. It may be that exactly. That this the last enemy to be overcome. In coming to grips with this ubiquitous yet phantom adversary, it is somewhat easier to say what time is not. It is not synonymous for fairly obvious reasons with change, nor is it sequence order of succession. Have loves dog for example. Must have learned that the sound of the bell was followed by feeding. How else could it have been conditioned to salivate at that sound? But dogs do not possess time consciousness. So before and after cannot be said to constitute time. Somewhat related, are inadequate attempts to account for all. But inescapable sense of time the neurologist, goody, rather along the lines of content, described it as one of our quote subconscious assumptions about the world. Some have described it no more helpfully. As a product of the imagination and the philosopher JJC, smart decided that it is a feeling that quote arises out of metaphysical confusion. Mactaggart FH, Bradley and Dummitt. Have been among 20th century thinkers who have decided against the existence of time. Because of its logically contradictory features. But it seems fairly plain that presence of time is far deeper causes than mere mental confusion. There is nothing even remotely similar to time. It is as unnatural, and yet as universal as alienation. Chakales points out that the present is a notion just as puzzling and intractable as time itself. What is the present? We know that it is always now. One is confined to it in an important sense and can experience no other part of time. We speak confidently of other parts, however, which we call past and future. But whereas things. That exist in space elsewhere than here continue to exist. Things don't exist now, as scholar observes, don't really exist at all. Time necessarily flows without its passage. There would be no sense of time. Whatever flows, though flows with respect to time. Turn therefore flows with respect to itself, which is meaningless owing to the fact that nothing can flow with respect to itself. No vocabulary is available for the abstract. Explication of time apart from my vocabulary, in which time is already presupposed. What is necessary is to put all the Givens into question. Metaphysics, with the narrowness that division of Labor has imposed from its inception, is too narrow for such a task. What causes time to flow? What is it that moves it toward the future? Whatever it is, it must beyond our time, deeper and more powerful. It must depend as Conley had it. Upon elemental forces, which are continuing continually in operation. William Spanos has noted that certain Latin words for culture. Not only signify agriculture or domestication, but are translations from Greek terms for the spatial image of time we are at base time binders in Alfred Curves decencies lexicon, the species due to this characteristic creates a symbolic class of life. An artificial world. Time binding reveals itself in an enormous increase in the control of our nature. Time becomes real because it has consequences and this efficacy has never been more painfully apparent. Life in this barest outline is said to be a journey through time. That it is a journey through alienation in the most public of secrets is the most public of secrets. No clock can strike for the happy one, says a German. Passing time once meaningless. Is now the inescapable beat, restricting and coercing us? Mirroring Blind authority itself going? How determined the flow of time to be? The distinction between what one needs and what one has, and therefore the incipiens of regret. Carpe diem. The maximum councils but civilization. Forces us always to mortgage the present to the future. Tom aims continually. Toward greater strictness of regularity and universality. Capital's technological world turns its progress by this could not exist in its absence. The importance of time wrote Bert Bert Bertrand Russell's lies quote. Rather, in relation to our desires than in relation to truth. There is a longing that is as palpable as time has become, the denial of desire can be gauged no more definitively than via the vast construct. We call time. I am like technology is never neutral. It is as Castoriadis rightly judge always endowed with meaning. Everything that commentators like, they will have said about technology in fact applies to time and more deeply. Both conditions are pervasive, omnipresent, basic, and in general has taken for granted as alienation itself. Time, like technology, is not only determining fact but also the enveloping element in which divided society develops. Similarly, it demands that its subjects be painstaking. Realistic, serious, and above all, devoted to work. It is autonomous, autonomous in its overall aspect like technology. It goes on forever of its own accord. But like the visual marker, which stands behind and sets in motion time and technology, it is after all a socially learned phenomenon. Humans and the rest of the world are synchronized to time and it's technical embodiment rather than the reverse central to this dilemma. As it is to alienation per se, is the feeling of being a helpless spectator. Every rebel that follows also rebels against time and its relentlessness redemption must involve. In a very fundamental sense, redemption from time. Time is the accident of accidents, according to Epicurus. Upon closer examination, however, its genesis appears less mysterious. It has occurred to many, in fact, that notions such as the past, the present, and the future are more linguistic than actual or physic. So the Neo Freudian theorist lachan, for example, decided that the time experience is essentially an effective language. A person with no language would likely have no sense of the passage of time. Harry Wilson moving much closer to the point, suggested that language was initiated by the need to express symbolic time. Gossett argued that the system of tenses found indo European languages developed along with the consciousness of a universal or abstract. Time and language are coterminous decided. Derrida quote to be in the one is to be in the other. Time is a symbolic construct immediately prior, relatively speaking to all the others and which requires language for its actualization. Paul Valery referred to the fall of the species into time as signaling alienation from nature. Quote by a sort of abuse man creates time, he wrote. And the time was before this fall, which constituted the overwhelming majority of our existence as humans. Life as he is often, as has often been said. Had a rhythm but not a progressive. It was the state when the soul could quote gather the whole of its being. In results, words in the absence of temporal strictures, where time is nothing to the soul. Activities themselves, usually of a leisurely character, were the points of reference before time and civilization's nature, provided the necessary signals quite independent of time. Humanity must have been conscious of memories and purposes long before any explicit distinction. Distinctions were drawn. Among past, present and future. Furthermore, as the language dwarf estimated pre literate communities, far from being sub rational may show the human mind functioning on a higher and more complex plane of rationality than among civilized men. The largely hidden key to the symbolic world is time. Indeed, it is at the origin of human symbolic activity. Time on this occasion is the first alienation. The root away from Aboriginal richness and wholeness. Out of the simultaneity of experience, the event of language says Charles Simic. Is an emergence into linear time. Researchers such as Zohar considered faculties of telepathy and precognition to have been sacrificed for the sake of evolution into symbolic life. If this sounds far fetched, the sober, sober positive positive is Freud due to telepathy, as quite possibly quote the original archaic means to which individuals understand one another. If the perception and perception of time. Relate to the very essence of cultural life. The advent of this time sense and its concomitant culture represent an impoverishment, even a disfigurement, by time. The consequences of this intrusion of time via language indicate that the latter is no more innocent, neutral, or assumption free than the former. Time is not only as Conte said at the foundation of all our representations, but by this fact also at the foundation of our adaptation. To a qualitatively reduced symbolic world. Our experience in this world is under an all pervasive pressure to be. Representation to be almost unconsciously degraded into symbols and measurements. Time with the German Mystic Meister. Eckhart is what keeps the light from reaching us. Time awareness is what empowers us to deal with our environment. Symbolically, there is no time apart from this estrangement. It is by means of progressive symbolization that time becomes naturalized becomes a given is removed from the sphere of conscious cultural production. Time becomes human in the measure to which it becomes actualized in narratives is another way of putting it. The symbolic accretions in this process constitute a steadily throttling instinctive desire. Repressions develop the sense of time unfolding immediately away, replaced by the mediations that make history possible. Language in the forefront. One begins to see past such banalities as time is an incomplete, incomprehensible quality of the given world. Number art, religion make their appearances in this given world disembodied phenomena of refined life. These emerging rights, in turn Gurevich surmises, lead to quote the production of new symbolic contents. Thus, in encouraging time leaping forward. Symbols, including time of course now have lives of their own in this cumulative interacting progression. David brings the reality of time in the existence of God is illustrative. It argues that it is precisely times reality, which proves the existence of God civilizations perfect logic. While Ritual is an attempt through symbolism to return to the timeless state, ritual is a gesture of abstraction from that state. However, a false step that only leads further away. The timelessness of number is part of this trajectory and contributes much to time as a fixed concept. In fact, Bloomberg seems largely correct in saying. That time is not measured as something that has been present all along. Instead, it is produced for the first time by measurement. To express time, we must in some way. Quantify it number is therefore essential, even where time has already appeared as slowly more divided social existence works toward its progressive reification. Only by means of number. The sense of passing time is not keen among tribal peoples. For example who do not mark it with calendars or clocks. An original meaning of the word in ancient. Greek is division. Number when added to time makes the dividing or separating not much more potent. The non civilized often have considered it unlucky to count living creatures and generally resist adopting the practice. Sober chauffeur. In 1822, he noted the intuition for number was far from spontaneous, inevitable, but already in the early civilizations. Filmul reports one feels that numbers are a reality, having it. As it were, a magnetic power field around them. It is not surprising that among ancient cultures, with the strongest emerging sense of time, Egyptian, Babylonian, Mayan, we see numbers associated with ritual figures and deities. Indeed, the Mayand Babylonians both had number gods. Much later, the clock, with its face of numbers, encourage society to abstract and quantify the experience of time. Still further, every clock reading is a measurement that joins the clock watcher to the flow of time. And we have simply delude ourselves that we know what time it is because we know what time it is. If we did away with clocks, Challis reminds US objective time would also disappear. More fundamentally, if we did away with specialization and technology, alienation would be banished. The mathematizing of nature was the basis for the birth of modern rationalism and science for the West. This had stemmed from demands for number of measurement and connection with similar teachings about time in the service of mercantile capitalism. The continuity of number and time as a geometric locus were fundamental to the scientific revolution, which projected Galileo's dictum to measure. While it is measurable and make measurable, that which is. Mathematically divisible time is necessary for the conquest of nature, and for even the rudiments of modern technology. From this point on, number based symbolic time became crushingly real. And abstract construction. Removed from and even contrary to, every internal and external human experience according to Sheila Mosey. Under its pressure, money and language, merchandise and information have become steadily less distinguishable. And division of Labor more extreme. To symbolize is to express time consciousness. For this symbol embodies the structure of time. Clearer still is merleau's famous, somewhat famous formulation to understand the symbol and its development is to grasp human history in a nutshell. The contrast is the life of the non civilized lived in a capacious presence that cannot be reduced, be reduced to the single moment of the mathematized present. As the continual now give way to increasing reliance upon systems of significant symbols, language number art ritual myths. Dislodged from the now, the further abstraction history began to develop. Historical time is no more inherent in reality, no less an important imposition it. Than the earlier, less cohete form of time. In a slowly more synthetic contest, astronomical observation is invested with new meanings. Once pursued for its own sake, it comes to provide the vehicle for scheduling rituals and coordinating the activities of complex society. With thelp of the stars, the year and its divisions exist as instruments of organizational authority. The formation of the calendar is basic to the formation of the civilization. The calendar was the first symbolic artifact that regulated social behavior by keeping. Track of time. And what is involved is not the control of time, but it's opposite and closure by time in the world of very real alienation. One recalls that the word comes from the Latin Collins, the first day of the month, when business accounts had to be settled. Well, I'll leave off reading there and to bring it back, bring it into the present. There's a review of a brand new book. Called being a human. Adventures and 40,000 years of communication. By Charles Foster this can be found in the current issue of the Times literary supplement, the TLS of London. For October 15th. This wonderful. This really. A noteworthy book, and. It brings to the fore a question which I think is becoming more impressive. Is is really maybe coming to be a central issue? At least I hope maybe I'm clutching at straws here. But anyway, in terms of domestication. Let me just quote from this review. It gets to theart of. Of the whole picture. Certainly something I totally agree with. This from. The review, paraphrasing. A key part of the book being a human. Our woes started in the Neolithic period. The age of domestication when cereal and cow herding were discovered and humanity began to settle. It was then that we traded off for convenience and control our leisure time radically diminished. And we became slaves to the animals and the land that we sought to exploit. We lost our connection with nature and our intimate knowledge of the many different species with which were once so familiar. Priests curated stories strangled the mind and the imagination. Thoughts as well as sheep were corralled. That's wonderful. That's just a beautiful way to address this epical shift. In social existence. And at the same time, This why I think quite possibly we're able to put all of this on the table. Because, well. I think the key thing is we're seeing it start to collapse. In every area, at every level it's going South as we put it. In the West, it's really, visibly starkly failing. Civilization has not met any of the promises. All of the ruin is now. So visible and so deeply felt, I think all over the place. It isn't just some abstract question. It's the immiseration of everyday life. It's the ruin of the natural world. It’s all of it. I want to worry what's going into that. We all know about it. And at the same time another brand new book. It hasn't even come out yet, but I'm getting a copy from the publisher in order to review it for. The World Literature review. And this book. By David Graeber and David Wingrove, I think is significant at this point. It's called the dawn of everything. A new new history of humanity. So here's another way to put civilization the table, so to speak, from a rather opposite point of view. These these fellows from the left seek to really disabuse us of the notion that it really all started with domestication. That was the fundamental. Oh no, no, that’s not right. We got. It all wrong. And by the way, the things that I've pointed out and many others by this time before me and. And at the present time. This just standard anthropology. This just well known orthodoxy. Thisn't some anarchist making it up to serve an ideological purpose. Not at all. This. Just basic anthropology one-on-one. All we're doing is, I think, taking the obvious implications of that to the next level. The next step, as with the text from Freud. OK, if this really a hideous thing, the point is to get rid of it the point. Is to move away from it. So anyway, there'll be more to be said about this. I haven't yet read the book, so I'm talking out of school in a way, although I'm quite familiar with their point of view for some years now, they've they've been trying to. Put this out in their writings. They've been trying to argue that oh, no domestication civilization, cities, It’s all. Could be great it's really it's not a bad thing. This whole trajectory. No, it's we want to rescue it. That's it reminds me of the. Of the later Frankfurt school people who talk about enlightenment, the point isn't to get rid of it. The point is to fulfill it. You know, let's make. Let's make good, honest promises. Well, that is diametrically opposed to. The other point of. View which points out that this a suicidal path and we better get off it. Well, that's I think that'll do it. I think I've tried to sum up some of the basic stuff here and also point to the some of the brand new literature on the subject which is. You know, I think it's interesting in itself that these books are being reviewed. And the latter one. I'm talking about the Grayburn wind group wind grow book has been received. Interestingly enough, with approbation, people are very relieved. Because it seems to me. Well, there was a review in the Guardian last week in the Atlantic magazine from the US just currently here. And with such relief. Ohh, they're overjoyed at this book, which which tries to rescue civilization. Ohh, good, good. This what we want to hear. It's not so bad. Yeah, it can be reformed. Well, this where the battle lines are drawn right now. OK, I'll just give it a rest for now. Thank you for listening.

Speaker 1: So now of course, the questions are most welcome. You can ask your question directly, also because it's not such a huge group and right at the beginning I notice some questions addressed to Leila. But I mean, you can ask your questions directly if you have them. OK.

Speaker 2: I just wanted to add I was wondering. Well, first of all always sorry freshing and actually gives us hope to listen to you John. It's amazing in the madness of this whole chaos. And how people domesticate themselves and accept the lies? And I don't know honestly, they do it sincerely or insincerely or deviously or not. So it's it gives me strength, but we can get out of it and sometimes I lose hope. But you, you get us back on track. Thank you.

Speaker 7: Thank you.

Speaker 2: So I’m glad I was wondering if you were going. To bring up. The book. I had to look at it because people are going crazy about it and everyone is buying it the same like with Harare. I looked at it and I find it actually more than harari's dishonest. I find it really dishonest and I think with Harare. He seems to have heard this idea superficially, and just like in French, they say Pell Mell, like mishmash and to book quickly bestseller because it precisely, it's like superficial, doesn't doesn't question anything. With Graver I know he was familiar with real critiques, and my question is why did he ignore them? And because if he didn't ignore them, he would have to face where all these myths. Would lead us. And I'll rest at that but that's my opinion.

Speaker 5: Thank you very well. You know, I. I think I could be wrong here, but I think they're feeling threatened. These defenders of civilization. Know that what we're all talking about is a direct challenge to the whole progress of this model of history is the whole heritage. Of the left. This endless of progress for the capital P that they're all in favor of people like Chomsky and then these others, some of them. Like Graeber, they sort of had a conversion. You know about 20 years ago when there was the so-called anti globalization movement. He became anarchist. All of a sudden he for many, many years, a progressive nothing but a progressive and really hated anarchist, but that's not that's not going far enough. You know it's not just being anarchist. What does that mean? Are you were leftist, anarchist or red anarchist or green anarchist or so? In other words, they see and maybe I'm overdoing it. I maybe actually clutching at straws here, but I think they feel something that's breathing down their neck. This getting so starkly wrong, and they end up having to mount a defense of it. It it, really. I think this not some. I call this infighting among radicals, but to me it's not infighting at all. This 2 very basically different orientations, different values, just fundamentally different. It's different as. Domestication and domestication.

Speaker 2: Absolutely I totally agree, yeah.

Speaker 1: I mean, there are always these three points and somehow it can be reformed somehow. It can be humanized somehow. It can be further developed and there they all. I mean, that's the. Point that the one can see that they collapse. Yeah, so there are questions now then you can ask the question directly. Causal you have a question now.

Speaker 7: OK hi, very enlightening really. I for me it is. You can see my background and I'm a public health specialist and particularly I'm alma mater of JNU. Some my question is. Are you agree on that there were sense of happening all the time among the human humanities? And do you think that the time has to do something with predictability? In my opinion, being a physician, I can say the brain is a survival tool. Always try to predict. The argument can be out here that the objective time is an utilitarian tool. If we are. Overusing it, that is, that could be a case. Or we should rethink about developing a different tool. Am I clear? My question is clear because once I say brain is a survival tool, it means that I'm focusing on fear factor. Brain has always has a fear factor and from there the all concepts come. That's my notion. I might be, you can. Expound on it. Is there any relation between predictability with the time sense of time or? Is there any relation between fear? And the sense of time.

Speaker 5: Well, that's an interesting question. That's a predictability. Has certain connotations, or it can be used in different ways. For example, you can predict something in a control sense to dominate it, or you can. Get in touch with nature, commune with nature, and be aware of the changes in the seasons. For example, when something ripens or when certain animals We'll be at a certain elevation. I'm thinking of, mobile hunter gatherers, which might have. You know, maybe a couple or three different camps during the year and they move from one to the other. They need to. Predict if you will, what's going to be found at the other location if they, if they are somewhat movable in their existence. It doesn't mean they control it, but now I think It’s more of an instrumental term where it does imply control. Well, you want to be ahead of the game to capture it, and change it to your own. Desires, that's the more modern usage, but I think you're right in questioning whether or not that is. Somewhat inherent to a concept of time, but I guess that depends on what. What angle you're coming from in terms of what is predictable?

Speaker 3: Yeah John this doctor Jajan.

Speaker 6: I have a question.

Speaker 3: This Alok Devaraj and in more or less on the similar line. I don't know how to articulate it. I my background is also in the global health and public health and I'm just going to be one sentence. You mentioned that the civilization. Cannot be stopped. Like it has, it is already in the inertia. It is moving on and also to some extent I'm trying to put it on to what Kaushal just mentioned. That is the brain, the predictability, the fear, all those things, which is there, it's combined together and seasonality that is also analogous to the you are measuring something you're trying to predict. Something that this what is going to happen. So whether time is just maybe an adjective. What we in the terms of today's time we have taken this As for the pressure for their stress and all that. OK, if you don't, but from the biological point of view also. Everything has its precise timing, like when the zygote is formed. When the development takes place, when it, and if there is a mess up there. If the timing is off, then like and you have some consequences in some diseases or whatever like cancer and all those things because of that. So I want to delink it from the domestication purposes, but the time itself. What you and Kaushal were discussing is something very natural. So how do? We capture it and then also mesh it with the civilization. I just said that we cannot stop. We are moving like we where were in The Cave. So does it mean that we should deny the time? We should still be in the caves. We should still be just staying there. I have no idea of all the. Because the literature and all that you all have lot more knowledge, but I'm just trying to understand this whole thing behind it.

Speaker 5: Wow, that’s quite a challenge. Well, I think they're when we talk about knowledge, understanding, even science, there's different. Ways of seeing this? You know you can have if you have an intimate. Contact with nature. You may have out of that absence of estrangement a much deeper understanding, much deeper knowledge. Then now for example. It just. The estrangement is so this so palpable and so visible. I mean now. More and more machines to tell us what our body is doing. That didn't used to be necessary. Were in tune with our body with ourselves. But now we're cut off from everything. We're just we're just relying. On the machine. It’s a ridiculous degree we don't even imagine that we could have. Some communing with ourselves are are very selves and the rest of them. I think and the question about civilization. Can't be stopped. I probably put that poorly. I think a a very key book in my opinion is Joseph Tainter is. The collapse of complex societies. And maybe what I was clumsily trying to get it is. It isn't stopped until it until it's over. And I mean it can. It's the parasite that consumes the host. At a certain point, the civilization has no more carrying capacity. I mean, the ball game is over because it's just it's. Literally killed off everything in one way or another and that's the end. That's the end of that civilization. And now there's only one, I think almost nothing outside of it, sadly enough. It's a. Yeah, it doesn't. It stops itself, but we need to figure out how to go in a different direction, how to how to chart out some more autonomous. Grasp of where we find ourselves and. Maybe in some way prepare for a soft landing, not just waiting around for the collapse, but figuring out. And turning to indigenous wisdom. Very fundamentally, in my view, what did they eat? What did they do, and how did they lie? And in that respect. I prefer back to the caves. Quite frankly I want to get off this madness machine this death machine this death chorus. Before it kills everything and everything is getting worse, I think there's no doubting. There's just going to be 1 pandemic after another. And the, in the course of society, especially in America, the mass shootings that? I mean it's. Just there's so much pathology in late civilization. There's no way to even make a list of it. It's too. It's too big of a growing list of things that are that are so. Remarkably negative. I’m I'm I don't know if that somewhat tackles what you brought up or not.

Speaker 3: No, no, it's. It's great but again like the.

Speaker 6: Can I ask?

Speaker 3: The point here is that. Will it be? It's just run its course like we have great civilizations in the past. So which we don't see it anymore. So is it just the like, ? You said civilization cannot be stopped one after the other? What we have at the moment, whether it's a pandemic or whether something so is it going to run its course and it just vanishes. It goes away.

Speaker 5: Well, the problem is everything else. Everything else is going to go away with. You know, with respect I mean everything is tied up with it, and so in order to make a break with that, in order to 1st think that through.

Speaker 3: Yeah so.

Speaker 5: I mean there's nothing that isn't being pulled down. I think of the metaphor. I don't. They don't even know what this literally true, but they say when a great ship. Goes down, it creates a vortex and sucks everything down with it. And I think that's happening on every level. It's deforming our own thinking even I mean it's affecting us. That is that the stress of it all. The insanity of it all. It’s really. It's very effective, it's. It has its impact on us in terms of friendships and so forth. I mean, it isn't just something that happens out there, we're all in it. We're all a part of it. We're all being held hostage no matter what your idea is, you don't have. A privileged position. Just because you have a, opposing ideas.

Speaker 7: Hmm yeah no.

Speaker 3: I'll I'll rest my case.

Speaker 6: Ask the question.

Speaker 3: I'll rest my case let's somebody else.

Speaker 1: I'll just add one more.

Speaker 6: May I debraj?

Speaker 1: Of course you can. You can ask now. OK, it's your turn, Sheena.

Speaker 6: Maybe I'm mixing different traditions in asking this question. Nevertheless, one is what you said about controlling nature as being in a sense, the point at which we begin to talk about time and it is. Negative phenomena, but on the other hand. We also have. A later position, as in EP Thompsons's time, work, discipline and capitalism. Now, what is the distinction? There and. Even if it isn't progressive, there's a qualitative difference. Plus, just to comment on the second, when we resist time, as workers going slow or absenting themselves, they're sort. Trying to do something different with time so there are ways in which people resist and we have examples. I mean, it's. It's a part of the working class movement to do that. So how would you see these things? You know, very interesting, but I. I wonder if it. Encompasses different stages of the way time is structured.

Speaker 5: Oh, I think it makes such an important point.

Speaker 6: Would love to know what you think.

Speaker 5: Yeah, that’s very, very important. My own work started with looking at the first unions and in the first industrializing country, England the textile mills, and so forth, and EP. Thompson makes an enormous contribution. He was, he situates time historically in terms of the discipline imposed on factory workers primarily, and makes he's the one who. In that essay, you mentioned and also in his classic the making of the English working class. It's extremely important, It’s a fight that goes on all the time to resist all these forces that are made concrete, made, made specific in work lives. You know in what? You know, and Marx, by the way, I think, got it completely wrong. It's not an advance when you heard everybody into the factories, they're more domesticated by that move, not less domesticated. It was the people on the land that the, for example, the classic handloom weavers that held out the. Longest against that horrible movement and fought even even to starvation in some cases. Refusing the factory they didn't want to be captive that way. Not exactly the glorious proletarian strength that was that was a phony. Collectivist idea that March had. But Europe that's I couldn't agree with you more. It’s important to bring up. The actual historical realities.

Speaker 6: And today I mean, is there hope there? I mean I don't know if you look at even if we forget about the organized trade union position. The fact that there are shrinks in the armor and this this. Well, despite what you said about the terribleness of it all. Are we missing? Those Points of Light because they're not codified, or. Stressed by the media or by Orthodox academic? So reflections, but they're probably happening and we need to catch them maybe. I've been associated with a newspaper called Faridabad. Masoor Samachar that has been in fact highlighting these things in. In the words of the workers themselves. More than somebody like a leader and I think I just would like your reflections. Is there hope?

Speaker 5: Well, It’s easy to be pessimistic, but. As you say, I think it's critical to. To find it wherever we can, the hope the aspects of resistance and that one does see and you not to lose sight of those things. It's very important this system is not infallible. And I think it's. You know It’s quite worried about its future. For that matter, and it reacts accordingly, it's. You know, I've just discovered the work of beyond Chohan. He's a originally a Korean. He was born in Korea, but he's at the University of Berlin and he writes along the lines of Baudrillard. Thing, and it's very. It's very bleak. He's he thinks that domination is almost disappeared because we, the current state of what we call the working class, has somewhat become a matter of we are imposing the domination ourselves. We're participating. So much in the system, at a time when. The communal aspect of social existence community is gone. I mean, I think that's that part of it is very important. There is no more community. Mass society has dissolved that, and we need to face that so it becomes a harder challenge. You know to find some coherent resistance. I mean, he's he is he sees the dispersion, the enemy, the we're more and more privatized and less able to come up with a strong. Opposition, I hope he's overdoing it. I hope he's just being too bleak or dark in his look, but that's the very current that’s a somewhat dominant way of looking. I mean he counts himself. I would say as a deep opponent of modernity. I mean, he just thinks it's so absurdity, so absurd, that he's quite opposed. But he's reached a fairly hopeless position, so that’s part of the zeitgeist. I'm afraid that it's it doesn't look too good right now. You know that's the way it is.

Speaker 6: It's also what, what, what? Gets projected and written about and . I mean, I think there are the limitations of institutionally available. You know? I'm just pointing out something which I find in some newspapers like the one I mentioned, highlighting . Just just. Adding to the conversation.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there are some. I mean for example Government of India, the ruling party is planning some where the bills are introduced, that there should be compulsory voting introduced in. So there are signs of hope. Very obviously people are withdrawing from.

Speaker 6: Do you think that's all working either?

Speaker 1: I mean that people don't want to participate into, I mean electing their masters. They're refusing to participate. I mean that's not only india, I mean this introduction of compulsory voting. This whole discussion. 29 crore of Indians didn't participate in the last elections. 29 crore. It's Indian unit of. I mean it might be 100. 1000, or more than that many. Much more than that. But that's 1/3 of total. Say part of the population, which is eligible for voting 1/3 of in population and. One member of Parliament was trying to introduce a bill so that's never actually at the center of discussion, so that's what actually I'm trying. I'm sorry. So now I'd like to invite other questions. There were some other people who had some questions.

Speaker 2: If I may. Mention something to the doctors because I started my path in anthropology as a medical anthropologist. And so my second book that's based on my dissertation, children's literature, domestication and social foundation narratives of civilization and wilderness. Is part of it well includes my research in medical anthropology and its connections to social control. So I did a comparative work in Sweden with so I looked at Somalis as oral culture, pastoralist culture. So there's the verification. But it's not like as entrench. And compared with European States and their medical understandings of what is illness? What is health? What is nature? What is reproduction? What and so you might be interested in looking at that and connecting it. I don't talk about time. But I do cite John's work on. Domestication and language and make connection there for the doctors and lawyers and everyone else.

Speaker 1: Yeah, they'll they'll be there next time again when. You are there. Yeah, if yeah there are there questions.

Speaker 7: You're good.

Speaker 8: HI have a question please could you explain the connection between domestication and language because language has been there for a long. Time, . So I just wanted to why are you connecting it with domestication and time?

Speaker 1: Can you tell us something about you, Madhu?

Speaker 5: Oh yeah, well, the origin of speech is rather unknown because there's no artifact attached to it. It's not until we have written language which is much further down the road. No consensus even on conjecture conjecture as to the origin of language. So that part is very speculative on my part. But it's. I mean it, it's not. It's not as basic as time in my opinion as a component of symbolic culture and it so it remains something of an unknown. Yeah, I would. It's not that domestication creates language, but I didn't mean to.

Speaker 8: I mean, I can see the connection between written languages and domestication and agriculture.

Speaker 5: See that.

Speaker 8: Of course, but. To me, language is much goes much deeper. You mean even Neanderthals? Probably had some language so.

Speaker 5: Probably yeah, and but there are all kinds of guesses. Some would put it much further back, hundreds of thousands of years, but. It probably was more recent as you prefer, but we. Don't know, we don't know.

Speaker 8: I mean, our vocal cords are so developed. Whales have languages I don't really see. The connection between language and I mean whales have names for each other. But anyway, but what would be a program of de domestication in your mind?

Speaker 5: Well, it's one one thing you bring up there. I think the question of representation is interesting. I mean, I think a lot of species have language in the sense of signals, but not perhaps in terms of symbols where something stands for something else. It's a more direct communication. And as I mentioned in passing there's there are ways of communication. Language is not the only way to communicate, as even Freud found it pretty likely that people were communicating without language. You know, in a sort of. What's the word we have? Well, without without any without that taking place. And it's. Seems. Odd, isn't it? That someone as rationalist as Freud would come up with something that sounds almost new age but really isn't. You know when you think about it but and he also kind. Of put that down. That was a backward stage. Well, maybe it wasn't a backward stage. Maybe it was a higher stage. If you want to put it that way. No, everything is symbolic. You know everything is representation. We talk about the crisis of representation in a post modern sense, which doesn't. It actually isn't tackling the representation itself. And maybe that needs to be on the table sometime.

Speaker 8: But could please could you like it? Tell us where your picture of what to denomination would involve.

Speaker 5: Well, decolonization is a is a good concrete way to look at it. You know, if Fred, sorry to keep referring to Freud, but if he was right that domestication is nothing but a machine for misery for neurosis, well, you don't want domestication, then I mean, bottom line. So if we want or rewilding some people. Prefer that term. Are domesticated freer. The life of heroes and. And freedom that they do quite often. Then you have domestic. That's the freedom and errors. It's time to get to work. It's time to pay everything and submit control, control the deeper.

Speaker 8: I guess the difficulty. Have with that is if domestication is connected with agriculture and it is. How do you support a population of. I don't know. 8 or 9 billion or whatever. We're going to have because Hunter gatherer population densities are much lower. So that's my basic question. I mean, how do you go from where we are to where you want to be without loss of great loss of life?

Speaker 5: You can't do it overnight and some of our enemies put it. As if we want all. These buildings of people to die overnight. Like we're going to push a button. And well, that's. Crazy, none of us have advocated that. All the time that's we're not only genocidal in our outlook, but we're genocide. Dist we want to kill all these people that's really false and dishonest. It's about what direction we're going in. The reason why Trump's getting granted this question. Why are there? 8 billion people. That's what the is domestic and then industrialization that creates a natural rise of population.

Speaker 9: One minute.

Speaker 5: It’s a purple fact. It's an empirical. He doesn't. He takes it. It is it that's Occurrence that there would be 8 billion people. That's really. That's a crazy. Way to look at. It, but again, he's defending the whole. Thing so he has. To come up with wild charges like that. But no, it couldn't happen overnight, obviously, but you can try to go in that direction toward more autonomy toward sort of. Health of. Unbuilt rule all of these things are part of it. Let's move in that direction instead of just saying, well he. He keeps saying he's not the only one, but look, since we have 8 billion people, we've gotta keep developing. We gotta have more factories. We're gonna have. No, that’s the road to absolute death.

Speaker 8: With Noam Chomsky cells.

Speaker 5: Oh yeah, he said that 18 years we got to go in the in the direction the current direction and maybe even speed it up to, completely industrialized to pay pave everything.

Speaker 8: OK.

Speaker 5: So because they'll be more and more people. Well, when do you stop that then when do you? Make a break with that. It’s anything but a given this, this just a phenomena that's part of the nature of civilization. That's the way it goes, as Tanner points out, it just keeps going until it kills everything in effect until it eats up all the resources. That's exactly what's happening.

UNKNOWN: Did they?

Speaker 7: Just to follow up on that so it is a natural progression. Are you saying that it is a natural progression? We are going towards the end of civilization, am I right?

Speaker 5: Well, it's the nature of civilization. It's not, . It's not natural in any real sense of if. If that wasn't. If that wasn't the machine that's running, then we would be quite different I think.

Speaker 1: More questions are invited. And Sanjay had to leave. He has requested you request John and others to share the key differences. That they mentioned. So he had to leave now, so that's also an important question. That key references. You can also send it to me by e-mail, or you can also share it with everyone here in the. So that was one important suggestion. So questions. Do we have any suggestions or? Somebody wants to add something to what he said and.

Speaker 7: One thing just to Adam. So because Globe is not I can say everywhere we have a geographically and even in the development. Ladder so-called development ladder. Different countries are at different level, so if this happening this going to. End the particularly the so-called civilized that code and code civilization. It will be happening. I'm just again the same the predict it will be happening in the same same. Same way, same speed or same level of intensity. All part of the world. Or some will survive in some particulars, some countries some civilization, because even in this civilization several layer of it, so it is everywhere. It is the same or it will be different.

Speaker 5: Well, there are. There are differences. Certainly there are cultural differences. There is difference in the pace of. Things in different places. I'm forced to generalize quite a lot, but yeah, but it is a totalizing thing, though, it's it does. It is relentless and it will as we can see. It wipes out these these people, these groups that. You know which don't compete? You know they lose, and whether it's disease or whatever it is, that they’re wiped out. So it's as a general rule, it's gonna it. There's no place that's safe from it. There's no lifeboat idea that you'll be exempt sooner or later, and sadly enough it's it'll be there as it has arrived pretty much everywhere. At different rates of development to be sure. You know, if I can mention here. It's just a favorite favorite text of mine, the Marshall Solens, the original affluent society. He provides a very, very tasty way to look at things in a very witty way. This essay. It's the first essay in the Book Stone Age economy. And he posits a competition between the say, a modern businessman, and somebody in the Paleolithic hunter gatherer person. And he write down the line, he says, well, the Paleolithic person just is a is a loser, just loses out. And in terms of productivity. In terms of all these different metrics, it doesn't have a chance, but then it points out that who is. If your needs are satisfied. Doesn't that sound like being happy? And if but if your needs are not satisfied. If you always want more, you can be a rich businessman, but you're poor. You're not, you're not affluent. Who's the affluent person in this picture? It’s. Can't do justice. Appraising it, but I think that's theart. Of it, and it's just wonderful. Text written way back in the early 70s I think.

Speaker 6: Can I ask? Librach about your reference to the Vikram Nanda's work and this of course related to what John would have spoken about. But you began by talking about his work on the in. Orissamongst the Highlanders.

Speaker 1: Exactly, yeah.

Speaker 6: What is the connection with the with the team? Please do he's he's been a colleague of mine? Unfortunately he's no more and so I'm very keen to know.


Speaker 1: No, no. I mean, I can definitely send. You, I mean I. Can share the. Reference and I mean he mentioned somewhere that was very interesting and striking to me when he says that we learned that the time can be wasted. So definitely he didn't go. I mean he didn't want to question civilization and he also. Mentioned that the way. The way we deal with time, how it turns. For example, time Orient, task oriented time and from that we turn into time oriented task this transition. How it all becomes hell, but there are so many, I mean powerful passes in this work. But this sentence, I mean definitely. I had my own reception for the first time. I could see it very clearly that it's not something I mean in that human nature that we should. We should deal with the time and source and that was really a. They're similar to other sentences that I have read. For example, when Mark says definitely I'm not trying, I'm not in a mood to. I mean forgive him for other parts of his life. But when you say that all the changes till now were always. How to say it was all the revolutions till now. All the changes till now was always about redistribution of work. To new set of people, work and power. And the main point is not the. Redistribution of power and work. To new set of. People, the main point is the abolition. Of power and work. Not the not the Redis. I mean, definitely. I'm not forgetting his ecocidal writings and anti anthropocentric sorry anthropocentric writings of Marx, but this was also of program. And it also relates relates to the part of the writings of John. I wanted to ask him that he deals, I mean with the topic at one place that how to stop time while time. I mean essence of time is domestications how to stop time and then I would like to. Hear from him directly that. What do you say to that I? Mean we have. Already discussed this thing, how the time shall be stopped?

Speaker 5: Well, it's a. It's a total picture. I'd say I mean. That's a symptom of something, so you can't. There is no way to abolish that without getting rid of all the rest of the whole ensemble of. It the whole. The whole setup, and domestication is a key part of that. And then, if we manage to get there someday, somehow we'll find out if there's any remaining meaning to that word in some ways. It’s a very instrumental term. It relates to the conditions of. Where we're at in modernity and it's all. You know, I mean. You can go back. To the most basic social institution, division of Labor, and where that starts changing it. I think it introduces certain gradients of authority, certain imbalances in power, slowly, very slowly. It probably unnoticeable because it all. The whole thing develops as a unitary thing. That's why It’s hard to see what's what's coming. And then it's hard to go back the other way. That's the thing about irreversibility of time. Has to do with the irreversibility, the apparent irreversibility of society. It's going very, very slowly at first, but it finally sets the stage to the division of Labor that is toward the jump toward domestication, which is a qualitative jump. But it's. I think only made possible by. Increasing division of Labor. Where probably the shaman is the 1st. Clear specialist or expert that has authority over other people exercise benignly, mostly I think, but it's a power relationship. And then that's you can closer to domestication to the real controlled ethos. That is, that only grows stronger. It feeds on itself. It's the IT has an inner logic, I would say. So we, that’s just a piece of it then, so . If it can be. Dismantled completely left behind. Then then you have. Possibly you have no more time consciousness. You don't. You're not operating in that dimension.

Speaker 1: Thank you so many more questions are invited. I mean of course it's getting late india. What's the time right now india? Or anybody else?

Speaker 6: It's close, It’s. 20 to 11.


Speaker 1: So that was one of the challenges that we had for this line up that it would. Be too late. India or how to? Have everybody at the same time and somehow. We could pull it off. So if you don't have anymore questions then I would like to invite you all for the next talk by Lailabdul Rahim. And she has already had one question from Madhuri Mukherjee about the domestication of horses. So, but let's see. I mean, we will see each other on the next the last Sunday of November, and so let us say. Let's call it. A day because it's too late india. Or do we have some questions really from India from younger generation? Ankita Priya do you have any question?

Speaker 4: OK hello.

Speaker 1: Yeah, do you have any questions?

Speaker 4: Not really, but I am really enlightened and I got a much clearer and much better perspective of what the link between domestication and time is. And this whole thing really fascinates me. And it also gives me a look for a like I look forward to a hopeful future if I can say that. So yeah, it is a very enlightening session. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: Yeah, minel do you have any questions or. We'll have many questions, of course, because this topic is entirely new. And yeah, Sudeep you wanted. Do you want to ask something?

Speaker 9: No, there's no question as such, but I really like this, and I mean a lot of things are coming to mind, but I think I'll be putting this down and sharing with you. And I think we can share it in the.

Speaker 1: Yeah, welcome to the group and John will be a part of. He's one of the. Founding members of this.

Speaker 9: Group, Yeah it was great listening to him.

Speaker 1: Like any of us. Yeah, in any case we have named it say future of Western and South future of stress in South Asia. But John is a part. Of it. So it's understood. And of course, then I. Also part of it.

Speaker 9: Yeah, it was great listening, and in fact I'm looking forward. To next next month's talk from Lila.

Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we will have all such sessions and again again we will come back together. Also, as in Group sessions and outlook sessions. That means that where this split between audience and performer will not be there. I mean everybody can talk about himself directly so that this not. This gap is not there. We have to do it like this. That the event is there when John was india. We also tried to prevent this production of. Event somehow it worked out somehow didn't work out, but it does. It's far better if we can overcome these kits. I mean perform audiences right and that's why this our group event and in Group event we all have our terms that everybody is has to tell about himself or his or her and herself. So yeah, because he or she can is the best person to tell and talk about himself and Hassan.

Speaker 9: Sure, sure, yeah. In fact we have discussed about that.

Speaker 1: Yeah, so as Leila said, it's always refreshing to listen to John. I mean, it rejuvenates us again gives us. I mean not only, I must confess, not only what you see, but also there's something in the sound of his wires. I mean because it was way back, it was 2010. I was at his place and my conversation with him. With him is also online. It's I mean about the first ever attempt to formulate anti work anti career anti. Civilization History of India. Yeah, and from that time that point of time till now the sound of his wires it is always there and it's like just a fresh stream stream from the mountain. It's refreshing and it rejuvenates and then again you feel young and there's lot to do, John. Thank you very much for being with. Us and your readiness to get up so early. In the morning. He was ready to get up early in the morning at 7:00 AM so that this event is not dead event that is pretty. Got it you want to have?

Speaker 2: It live as I said, you sacrificed your beauty, sleep for us and we treasure it.

Speaker 5: My pleasure.

Speaker 1: Spot on yeah OK?

Speaker 9: So then.

Speaker 8: Well, thank you very much for. That very interesting talk.

Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, everybody is most welcome, so have a nice day. John in Americand Goodnight to our friends indiand good evening in Germany. Now all the best and see you on the last bye thanks.

Speaker 8: Bye thanks divia.

New Book

When We Are Human

The Anarchist and the Whiteaker

Interview by Wayne Parker. February, 2019.

Under The Radar: The Anarchist in Me

by Doug Harvey. ARTILLERY Magazine. September 4, 2018.

NPR Think Out Loud interview

streaming link | download mp3. May 2, 2018.

The Devil in the Plow, Clock & Book

by Martin Billheimer,, April 3, 2018.


Portrait by bata Nesha, Belgrade, 2013.


Brother; drive out power in yourself. Never let it fascinate you... – Nestor Makhno

The plow marked the moment when History first entered into geological time and humankind, once a single creation out of many, began to transform the forces of general life. This civilization – the old curse of Cain, first to till and kill, primal architect of cities, the father of that pathology known as ‘Progress’. If Anarchist John Zerzan has one wish in his new book, it is that we might wake from this nightmare of myth and History. Wise children often ask their social science teachers: Why do I have to learn this junk that doesn’t matter? The teacher seldom has a good answer because the question is rarely understood: Why must I learn theirjunk, theirHistory; that is, the ghostly lessons of their wreckage.

Zerzan’s latest collection of essays is entitled A People’s History of Civilization and it will probably be met with the same derision from a self-satisfied Left which has dogged idealists even before Fourier. The influence of utopians has always been an embarrassment, as if the inspired initial spark of a political project keeps raising its shrill orphan voice while the Parties have long since grown into maturity (or senility) and realpolitik (or compromise). The anarchic idea is ageless and perfect,“an enthusiastic and Dionysian pessimism” as Novatore has it; it is necessarily outside of history, close to the uncanny spheres of obsession and dream. But after the plowshare has been broken, dream-visions have usually been met with fixed bayonets from both sides. Martyrdom is the only acceptable elite in anarchism. Who Killed Ned Ludd?, as the title of one of Zerzan’s best pieces asks. Look for the assassin at the feet of the Angel of History.

If agriculture was the original sin of History, the Fall was our descent into Symbolic forms which created a psychological removal best expressed by the use of artillery. With the epoch of History proper, beginning with the Neolithic, internal abstractions are projected outwards onto a terra nullius, a void now dedicated to the manufacture of first commodities, the domestication of animals and conflict management, in terror of the silences of a world made ancient by representation and signs. The great farming apparatus of this era mirrored institutionalized ritual and the codes of orthodox magic, which are the ancestors of surveillance technology and remote control. Division of labor lead to the great land enclosures and the dawn of the money form, nascent surplus-value with its classes of guardians, warriors, magistrates, clerics. Greek books were read in boustrophedon, which means ‘after the action of an oxen plowing a field’, each line progressing and then reversing back in a bi-directional motion, equating the patterns of informational technology with the golden gizmo of sedentary humanity. The subsequent Bronze Age saw pottery, the production of rich varieties of armaments, the complexities of credit and written script, and the formation of the great elites – and naturally, slavery. Early statecraft was far more ‘modern’ than is commonly acknowledged: banking, proto-welfare, heated toilet seats, the wide application of credit and debt enslavement (we have conveniently lost the custom of the Jubilee write-down), micro-breweries, were all part of the ancient world. Zerzan sees our much-vaulted great leaps forward as merely rarified variations on a theme, but he follows these zigzags with penetration and a knack for devilled detail.

The other irruption into the natural world is that old monster, Time. Zerzan rejects the picture of an unbroken continuum where all tributaries lead to an inviolable present, a comforting illusion which mirrors the artifice of irrigation systems and continues to haunt all ideologies. The capitalist regimen of days reduces dynamism to the motors of production and psychology to an internal fateful machine (it also allows our current Neoliberal ideologues to declare that all historical epochs are over). With some reservations, Zerzan co-opts three rough historical eras from Spengler and Jaspers to chart the fairly abysmal record of human enlightenment. After all, a good anarchist cannot totally dismiss the solemn judgment of Nihilism. Yet Zerzan sees a constant spirit of revolt puncturing the gray impenetrable historical mass: revelatory and salvific moments, anarchies when ‘the passion for destruction’ and unlettered prophecy break through the chronologies of States. His chapters on labor history are full of madcap millenarians, outré unionists, and the ‘aristocracy’ of damned refusal. The much-maligned angry mobs of the Middle Ages, a period usually rendered as a vast darkness before the autocratic glory of the Renaissance, were not always witch-hunters and fanatics – many were intransigent partisans against monarchic cruelty and the despotism of the Church. We can characterize Anarchic Time as a series of sudden raids into the Legal-Capital span, transversal lines used like a mocking sniper’s sight at the colossus of History.

Despite his antagonism to much of the traditional Left, Zerzan shares two of Marx’s voices: the polemical and the historic-analytical. One of his main criticisms of Marx – or more properly, of Marxists– is that only the means of production are to be handed over the working class, not the means to fundamentally change or halt what is produced. Even if all production were localized in people’s democratic communes, metabolism between worker and land is never possible because the land is still seen as abject material. This fatal mistake can only produce a resurgent bourgeoisie, soon back in charge again as both Bakunin and Trotsky wryly predicted. Thus, the laws of the capitalist mode of production will inevitably return behind whatever cosmetic façade tragedy chooses to trade for farce.

There is also the question of Power; or rather, the claim to Power. Who would elect to be powerless in the face of the Beast? But, Pasolini: “Nothing is more anarchic than power. Power does what it wants and what it wants is totally arbitrary or dictated by its economic reasons which escape common logic.” Two possibilities, then? Careless, heedless resistance and the power of the refusal of old power (the power of the doomed?); and the historically-commandeered application of Power, uncontrollable and fraught with unintended consequences, riddled with dialectical traps for both socialist and capitalist states. And is the power of the State only able to be broken by another rival power? Can this rival power ever be rejected in turn, after it has smashed all the old statues? And if it cannot, then perhaps a reign of terror by the oppressed is always justified, necessary and righteous in its dark parody of unjustice, an act of cleansing for the wretched of the earth? Are such questions even worth asking, as they hardly apply to the time-beside-time of anarchist revolution – or if they do, are they not equally applicable to the other political schools? Is not every revolutionary some anarchist, but only before the Revolution’s final victory? Still, as per Zerzan, theory and practice of Power might itself be yet another hostile intrusion into humanity, just like the disciplines of History, Agriculture and Time. Certainly, ideas of power run through historical processes – but they do not necessarily ordain destiny. Perhaps they did not even create the past. Power is not a thing but a relation between things, to use a little Marx. It has its applications, its system of violence and peace, its doctors and its various schools, on every level of society. Maybe we need anti-education, like we need anti-history.

Recent work on archeology and society, notably by David Graeber & David Wengrow here, indicates that Zerzan may be mistaken in his essential schema of agriculture-hierarchy-civilization (as would be capitalists and authoritarians). The ages of the earth now seem to weave in and out with a much more Lamarckian than Social Darwinist loom. Technologies appeared and were rejected and did not necessarily follow each other automatically; leadership at times existed only temporarily, then life fell back by season into egalitarianism (this may be the ritual source of the sacralization of kings in Frazer’s Golden Bough); large communities existed in ‘urban’ environments, but seemed to have functioned in some cases as true decentralized soviets; agrarian projects were maintained without the evolution of grain capital hordes (and were abandoned when deemed unnecessary); private property did not always arise out of mass farming and hunter-gatherers could prove more rigid and tiered than farmers. Earlier epochs may have been more fluid and more able to sustain multiple ideas of culture than our own; almost all we knew of them until now came from the speculations of various ideologues. Yet this may be exactly where Zerzan’s anarchic eruptions look back to, look forward to, both announce and recall, which makes his central hypothesis irrelevant and proves his argument against the fabrication known as History. So he ends his book with a beautiful gloss on Benjamin’s ninth thesis from Theses on the Philosophy of History (1940), that mysterious and profound meditation at the twilight of irony, legend and lived life:

A messianic dimension is needed if history is to be redeemed, if a part of our happiness our ancestors could not have is to be validated. To ‘awaken the dead and make whole what has been smashed.’ To unmask the paradigm of history and its fundamentally legitimizing enterprise. Time and history ceaselessly advance all encompassing domination; a rupture, a break is needed… a break with history. Were conscripted into history and we must make our exit from it.

Zerzan notes a choice of targets by radicals in 1830 which may augur this escape: a clock tower. Shoot out the Symbolic with the guns of the Real, then forward to the very Capital of Pain. Avanti popolo, alla riscossa...


Interview with Roc Morin for Vice


The Industrial Revolution wasn’t just about economics. As Foucault says, it was more about imposing discipline. It started to dawn on me, maybe technology has always been that way.

Interview with Martin Pavelka for More Thought


Are people happy with domestication, with leading domesticated lives? I think the answer is, resoundingly, 'no.'

Disinfo interview


Today, because of not despite technology, we are more and more isolated. Community, the fundamental aspect of non-domesticated and non-industrial life, is gone.

Telegraph interview


We've never had more technology than now, and it's coming out faster than ever. But that's exactly why I think people will start pushing back. They are beginning to see that technology doesn't deliver on its promises.

On Steve Jobs' Legacy


You can wax poetically about this clean, gleaming thing that is the Steve Jobs product, but in order to get it you have to have the ugly, systematic assault on the natural world.

We Heard Screaming (2012)


As community heads to a vanishing point, social ties and human solidarity are lost, of course. Nihilistic acts, including shootings, are symptoms of the isolating emptiness of mass society. How could it be otherwise?

Happiness (2011)


Is happiness really possible in a time of ruin? Can we somehow flourish, have complete lives? Is joy any longer compatible with the life of today?

Silence (2008)


“Silence used to be, to varying degrees, a means of isolation. Now it is the absence of silence that works to render today's world empty and isolating. Its reserves have been invaded and depleted.”

The Left? No thanks! (2008)


“ isn't anarchism that is moving forward, but anarchy. Not a closed, Eurocentric ideology but an open, no-holds-barred questioning and resisting.”

Seize the Day (2006)


“Ours is an incomparable historical vantage point. We can easily grasp the story of this universal civilization's malignancy...”

No Way Out? (2003)


“The nature of the civilization project was clear from the beginning. As the swiftly arriving product of agriculture, the intensification of domination has been steady and sure...”

Why Primitivism? (2002)


“For a new orientation the challenge is at a depth that theorists have almost entirely avoided.”


February 2018

  • BDYHAX conference, Austin TX, February 3

December 2017

  • Barnard College, Columbia University, December 5

July 2017

  • The Base, Brooklyn, July 29

February 2016

  • Left Bank Books, Seattle, February 21

  • Cat Mountain Lodge, Tucson, February 27

March 2016

  • Northtown Books, Arcata CA, March 11

December 2015

  • Brno, Prague, December 3-8

November 2014

  • Stanford University, November 15

February 2014

  • Fort Lewis College, February 25

November 2013: Arizona

  • Flagstaff, November 16-17

March 2013: Brazil

  • Joao Pessoa University, March 25-27

January 2013: Arizona

  • Northern Arizona University, January 22

September 2012: Washington

  • Smoke Farm Symposium: September 23

August 2012: England

  • London (Raven Row) August 4

April 2012: Wisconsin

  • Madison (Rainbow Books) April 15

  • Stevens Point (U of Wisconsin) April 16

February 2012: India

  • Feb 7-11: Delhi

  • Feb 14,16: Hyderabad

  • Feb 20-21: Chennai

  • Feb 22-23: Kerala

December 2011: Arizona

  • Tucson: December 10 (Dry River Collective)

November 2011: California

  • Fresno State University: November 29

July 2011:

  • Portland Anarchist Book Fair, July 23

  • Philosophy in the Contemporary World Conference, Oregon State University, July 24

May 2011: Arizona

  • Tucson (Dry River Collective) May 7, 2011.

February 2011: Canada

  • Feb 3 Vancouver

  • Feb 4,5 Victoria

November 2010

  • Nov 8 Penn State University

  • Nov 4,5 Temple University

September-October, 2010: Italy

  • Sep 25 Padova: Montenegro Terme

  • Sep 26 Milano: c.c. Conchetta

  • Sep 28 Torino: University

  • Sep 29 Bologna: Modo Infoshop

  • Sep 30 Siena: University

  • Oct 1: Pisa: University

  • Oct 2: Modena: Scintilla

June 2010

  • Ireland: Dublin, Enniskillen, Belfast

April 2010

  • Sweden: Gothenberg, Stockholm

January 2010

  • Spain: CGT Centenary, Madrid

  • England: Cowley Club, Brighton

November-December 2009

  • India tour: Mumbai, Nagpur, Kolkata, Delhi

August 2009

  • Christianarchy conference, Memphis, Tennessee

June 2009

  • Moscow International Book Fair and anarchist venue

May, 2009

  • OVNI Festival, Barcelona

Finland: May, 2009

Seminar on primitivism, anarchism and anthropology: John Zerzand the postmodern world

  • 23rd May 2009, University of Tampere, Finland. Download pdf

India: November 7-19, 2008:

Hindustan Times article: PDF or article link (see p. 12).


  • November 9 -- conference hall, Prakhrit Bharti center, 4 PM

New Delhi:

  • Tuesday Nov 11, 2 p.m. Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU), School of Social Sciences

  • Friday, Nov 14, 11 a.m., SGDB Khalsa College, Delhi University, North Campus

Brazil: February 1-15, 2008

Europe: May 25-June 12, 2007

  • Serbia: Belgrade, May 25-27

  • Slovenia:

  • Lubljana, May 28-29

  • Koper, May 29-30

  • Switzerland:

  • Zurich, May 31

  • Lugano, June 1

  • Belgium: Ghent, June 2

  • Germany: Hamburg, June 3

  • Sweden: Stockholm, June 4-5

  • Finland: Tampere, June 6-7

  • Estonia: Tallinn, June 7

  • Poland: Warsaw, June 8-9

  • Austria: Vienna, June 10

  • Hungary: Budapest, June 11

  • Holland: Amsterdam, June 12


John Zerzan is available as a public speaker. Recent venues include college and university campuses nationwide, as well as these international tours:

  • 2000- England, Spain

  • 2001- Spain

  • 2002- Greece, Italy

  • 2004- Turkey

  • 2005- Germany, Croatia, Serbia, Italy, Turkey

  • 2006- England, Spain

  • 2007- Europe

  • 2008- Brazil

  • 2008- India

If you are interested in arranging a speaking engagement, write to John at jzprimitivo[at]


  • When We Are Human: Notes from the Age of Pandemics, Feral House, 2021

  • A People's History of Civilization, Feral House, 2018

  • Time and Time Again, Detritus Books, 2018

  • Why Hope? The Stand Against Civilization, Feral House, 2015

  • Future Primitive Revisited, Feral House, 2012

  • Origins: A John Zerzan Reader, a joint publication of FC Press and Black and Green Press, 2010

  • Twilight of the Machines, Feral House, 2008

  • Running On Emptiness, Feral House, 2002

  • Against Civilization (editor), Uncivilized Books, 1999; Expanded edition, Feral House, 2005

  • Future Primitive, Autonomedia, 1994 (out of print)

  • Questioning Technology (co-edited with Alice Carnes), Freedom Press, 1988; 2d edition, New Society, 1991 (out of print)

  • Elements of Refusal, Left Bank Books, 1988; 2d edition, C.A.L. Press, 1999

Anarchy Radio

Since the millennium change John Zerzan has been expressing his anti-civilization views on his one hour live radio show, "AnarchyRadio." By audio streaming (KWVA 88.1 FM) you can listen to "AnarchyRadio" live each week on Tuesdays at 7pm PST and express your views by calling 541-346-0645 during the live broadcast.

Listed below are the archives of "AnarchyRadio."

Looking for the latest show? If the annotated list of shows below hasn't been updated yet, you should always able to find the latest Anarchy Radio at the top of this search results page.




Unstoppable mass shootings. Rise of fires, heat waves. Idalia--and more to come. Women hunters in prehistory. "Conspiracy 'theory'" by JZ. Conspirituality: How New Age Conspiracy Theories Became a Health Threat," by Beres et al. "The Case Against AI: Everything, Everywhere, All at Once" by Judy Estrin. Phoney opposition to chatbot AI to general embrace, in days. "Electric Cars Are Made of Pollution and Human Misery," by Kathryn Porter. Screen time makes kiddies stupid. "Quiet quitting" still with us. Two calls.



"We Are Witnessing the 1st Stages of Civilization's Collapse" [The Nation!]. Hyundai: "Progress is our law of nature." Spread of mass shootings. Why are we so sad, mean, insecure? Kids bereft, incapable. "The Age of the Urban Inferno is Here." Polycrisis is a term. Chatbot as life coach, comedian, etc. Action briefs, two calls.



Maui, HI: apocalypse now. Trump cult and those obsessed with it. Heat + isolation = disaster. Conversation with Jessica Kraft re: her Why We Need to be Wild book; parallel with Darcia Narvaez' Evolved Nest book. "My Mom Will Email Me After She Dies." "We thought the internet could change society. Instead it became society." "Why Is America such a Deadly Place?" Resistance news.



The HEAT. Bronze Age Pervert's recent call. Diseases tick up. The Great Dechurching.Conspiracy theory 2.0. "Moxie"- a talking robot (chatbot) to teach kids "social skills." World- view projects 8 billion facial recognition links to cryptocurrency. New podcasts, action news e.g. Russian recruitment center arsons. One call.

Speaker 1: The views expressed on this program are not necessarily the views of KWB, a radio or the associated students of the University of Oregon. Anarchy Radio is an editorial collage providing analysis and opinions of John Zerzan and the community at large.

Speaker 2: That's right. You're listening to kW VAU gene. It's Tuesday at 7:00 and time for Anarchy radio here in the studio with John. The number is 541. 3460645 We'll be able to take your calls in just. A few minutes we have we have some opening business to take care of and we're going to have some music from Bloomington IN to help us with it.

Speaker 1: Here we are. In the dog days of summer or August 8th for Anarchy Radio. You know, I had a little show called anarchy Hour quite a while back when we had pirate radio in the.

Speaker 2: Whittaker, I remember anarchy hour. Oh yeah, I used to listen energy over. Oh wow, in my in my little apartment on 7th St. Happening, whatever they call.

Speaker 1: It. Yeah. Well, I don't even know if it'll be an hour. By the way, tonight. But as Carl said, it's 541-346-0645 the next week. Catherine will be here. I was in error. I misread. Her message? Yeah, we'll be coasting, and Jessica craft is going to call in. We'll end her new book. Why we need to be wild. One woman's quest for ancient human answers to 21st century problems. Jessica Carol craft. And she will be. Talking about that at Pells in Portland on the 22nd. The following Tuesday. Well, Carl, by the way, Carl won't be here next week, so I'm going to start rattling the cages. Pretty much prone to to make sure we have a sound engineer. Yeah, Carl said. Remember Bronze Age pervert. He called like, what? A month ago, maybe or something like.

Speaker 2: Gosh, I think it was longer than that. It was, it was. It was a few months ago. Yeah.

Speaker 1: Further back. Uh, well, it turns out there's a. An article in the September of the upcoming September issue of the Atlantic. Entitled How Bronze Age pervert charmed the far right and Internet personality you espouses fascism, racism and body building as one influential converts. It was more than a month ago.

Speaker 2: Wasn't it? Yeah, it was. Well, I was wondering if you were able to get a hold of the article because, you know, I was just on the Internet and it's a pay wall. I I couldn't read the whole article except the first paragraph.

Speaker 1: I yeah, I I get a fee, but not from the magazine. From their daily thing. Yeah, he he seemed pretty. Slimy. Kind of furtive. You know, it's.

Speaker 2: It's it was a weird call, you know? Yeah, yeah. You couldn't tell what exactly about it, but it.

Speaker 1: Kinda smelled a rat.

Speaker 2: Was a little. Weird it wouldn't.

Speaker 1: Come across. He wouldn't spit it out. You know what? What are you all about here anyway? So the guys now somewhat.

Speaker 2: Confirmed creep.

Speaker 1: Right. The well known creed. Yeah, news to us. But we have gotten some strange calls over the years. Well, we'll see more on the Joshua trees, which are somewhat rare. They're burning in the heat in the Mojave Desert area that fire. And I think I mentioned the Saguaro cacti dying in Arizona. When the cactus starts to die, it's damn hot. Honey bees too. Their hives are melting. Not just in Arizona, I'm afraid, but anywhere. These days in the Southwest and the South, I guess it's somewhat widespread. And the coral reefs in South Florida, off the coast of South Florida, not just bleaching, they're actually melting, melting in the hot ocean water. Yeah. It's just really rapidly getting more and more insane. They may have heard about the glacier that broke off, causing flooding in Juneau. That's ongoing and it wasn't just a one off there. Yeah, July on this planet. Hottest ever. By wide margin for planet Earth and in South America, where it's winter, it's the equivalent to our February. With 100 degrees in vicuna Chile in the Andes. 100 degrees in February. You know, so to speak. And 80s and 90s, commonly elsewhere in the southern hemisphere. And one more piece, just today in the New York Times about Antarctic sea ice. At unprecedented low levels. And the only new thing about this article was. Reporting this as a quote very sudden change. So that's kind of ongoing, but now it's quickened the pace there. Which means further disruptions of. The ecosystems in Antarctica. The rising sea levels. All over the place. And the spiraling temperatures. This was announced a week ago. Force Iran to shut down. Yeah, country had to shut down all government agencies, banks, schools for two days. It was that hot. And you know. Just to daily craziness, the gigantic flooding in China the severe. Storms on the East Coast. Since just last night. And the. Yeah, ocean temperatures break records. Can't start, can't even count the different. Places that's there is only. Oh man, and you got the bounding. This is situation global cholera epidemic. And that's of course linked to global warming. I don't get the whole picture on that the whole. Parameters in there but. It's kind of headlining. West Nile virus been around in the US since 1999. It's becoming resistant to insecticides. This is spread by the American Culex mosquito. That's coming on again. Coal mining is getting more dangerous. On the weekend, this is a story black lung disease, way up. Well, mining in general of course, is dangerous and. Vitally necessary to any technology, any modern technology. The great deep churching this book hasn't even come out yet, but. That would be probably a parallel to, for example, the book bowling alone that came out in 2000. Churches for sale, you know, empty churches. If you're in England, it's it's really, really noticeable there and has been for quite a while, but now this is a story about the US. Well, the open water swimming event, it's a World Cup event to be held later this month in Paris was cancelled. The same 2 polluted. Due to freakish marine flow levels recently. You know, let her run off one of overflow sewage and that sort of thing. Perris is to host the Summer Olympics. Next summer. Wonder how that will be impacted. Here's an odd phenomenon recently in recent weeks, seeing a number of stories about. For example, last Thursday in the New York Times quote, as objects fly, audiences take starring roles. And this is about performers being pelted with with the cell phones or whatever. Whatever you got to check, it was on stage. That sounds like the punk scene. You know, I remember the movie gardens in San Francisco. Whatever band had start up and people would start chucking beer. Bottles at them and. Kind of dangerous anything about it but. Yeah. And they've been injuries. You know, people have. Been hit and. What is that about? Well, there's some really there's some really odd. Take no stuff going on as usual. Two days ago, in the Sunday New York Times. And this has to do. I'm trying to get somewhere with my my new topic, which is conspiracy theory. If you get the goods on that, let me know. I'd love to steal your ideas and further my. Piece on the subject. This article is called how Q Anon broke conspiracy theory. Sooner than odd title, but the point is how the Internet has changed conspiracy theory. Mainly queuing on, but you know more than that and. Social media being online, it's I I think the point is. The primary point here is. These things get more grotesque and and I guess more metastasizing when it's a function of. Social media, in other words, is to have. Kind of discrete conspiracy theories like Elvis is still alive or. Kennedy was killed by the CIA or something, but now they tend to. Kind of grow. To stay current on social media, you know, there's you can see the the malignancy kind of like a cancer needs to grow or it dies I guess. I mean, being online is already undermining any sense of knowledge or truth. That's that isn't just a postmodern conceit, although it's. That's the obvious connection because. You know, post modernism peaked when. When the techno culture really took off. In the 80s and 90s, that's not a coincidence, but. Yeah, and there's more. More of the reach of AI is is also a part of this. Another piece in the same Sunday New York Times. Invading in publishing touches of fear and anxiety. Invader and publishing touches on fair and. In creativity as well. Kind of an oddly titled thing. Now writing may be done by AI, as you probably already know. So publishing. Has to contend. With all that. Yeah, the takeover, you can see it every single day. Yesterday was an article about something called. Nine to five. Good. And I think this is not the only app, but it 95. Google Now has a grammar check feature. You know, spell check is one thing. You don't need to learn how to spell I guess, but this inches toward doing the writing right. You don't know how to put a sentence together. You push the button and it fixes it. Yeah. One more step toward the you know the. Full launch. A lot of the chat bot thing. But here's this this could be the end of the week. It was just more of a news thing. Check it out this from the Southern California AI company called embodied. Remember that it's called embodied. Now has come up with a chat bot for kids called Moxie. Yeah, it's a talking robot to get this, to quote, teach social skills. Once again, the machine. It's the real social it teaches you social skills. You know. You're talking to a machine that's. Is kind of a strange version of social skills, right? It's. It's too insulting for words if you ask me. But things things March on and sometimes they don't March on. For example, today the news came out that Boeing's first astronaut flight, their first launch. Which is years behind already. Is delayed again until next March at the earliest. Another techno fail is kind of spectacular, I guess. Well, this is kind of a whopper in today's. New York Times. From an outfit called World coin. You can already see the connections here. This is a cryptocurrency facial recognition project. Yeah, they're. They're lining these things up. In tandem. And that's the idea. Who knows if this is going to fly? But the idea is to scan. 8 billion people's eyes in link the scams to participate in cryptocurrency. You get the facial recognition and thereby this. This just sounds so. I don't know all-encompassing is one word. Is you're automatically registered. It sounds like to a small piece of cryptocurrency, so you're enrolled. You're already part of it. Via the social recognition global of. Thing global project. So you got these coded scans these digital IDs. That this it's obviously to get the cryptocurrency off the ground. An effort, given its many failures, it's. I guess they've got to try to be grandiose about it. It doesn't sound too dystopian, does it? Hate. Believe in facial recognition? Deals that tied into cryptocurrency. Creepy orama. And just some of the more mundane, prosaic stuff about the tech reality. On the weekend at The Verge, it was a story about how. If you're charging your battery pack, don't do it near any place you don't want to catch fire. You might want. One suggestion is to put it in the in your BBQ grill with the lid on. So if we want to burst into flames, it's not going to burn your house down or burn up your car or whatever. And the hacks and the hacks, that's absolutely nothing new there. But now there is a major multi state hospital ransomware attack. That the FBI is forced to go after. And you know, when everything is smart, everything can be hacked, right? It's just the entryway to. Sell the works if you want to be smart, you've got to be stupid and be open to you know, hacks by any kind of outfit, any agency. Zooming right along one thing I now I can get to thanks to Artem is helping me out here. Now I have. A copy of plastic and Unera Journal of Anti Civil Anarchy Reborn from the compost of wasteland modernity. Issue #1. This is so cool, it's pretty compact. It's only 32 pages I think. And yeah, I want to get into this little bit the theme is. Artificiality. That's the topic in various ways of seeing it. Yeah, this is very cool little Zane. And he's already working on #2. Well, he kicks it off with a poem by him by himself, called Birdsong. Winter is coming to a close goodbye for now. Have you close? I step outside. Skin on skin. Feel a cool breeze. Breathe it in. High up above. Music in my ears. Bird song. Bird song. Wash away my fears. Spring is coming. Life leaves its Burrows. Not even this does Leviathan foreclose. I see a squirrel. I see my kin. To not love this world is the greatest sin. To build over this, the thought brings me to tears. For this I fight with stones and Spears. And beautiful precious. Just a marvelous collection of mostly fairly short essays. Steve Kirk kicks it off. And there's Joanne ****** in there. There's. There's a couple of pseudonymous people. There's also. Yeah, like for example walks with knives. That's a real fine piece called the old blood. Sky has one called illusory worlds of illusory play on escapism and free time. All about the techno capitalist dystopia we find ourselves trapped in. Sasha Angels Angel is a great piece called into continuous unfolding. Yeah, that. Unfolds a little bit of his work. The uncivilized mask by Dionysius. And a very short piece. For me called poverty. I think the very end of that is I must have. I'm, I'm sure, rent us on the air. Oh yeah. The last line is simply poor and simple as required. Yeah, it says right here is also read on Anarchy Radio March 28th. Let's see, I think. I think I'm, I think I'm skipping over somebody. Anyway, yeah, check it out. Free the prisoners. PO Box 72, Seymour, Illinois 61875. If you want to try to get a hold of the copy. Well, I got some nice news today. I got some copies of. A book, a translation of mine, published in. The book is career. Sobre El Vacio, running on emptiness, the pathology of civilization. Just a beautiful cover of very, very handsome execution. Seriously, then. Yeah, a couple of people have worked on that translation and I'm very grateful for that. You know what we're going to be gone and in. About half of the hour. And you might sneak on out of here. If you hasten, you might get in a phone call that, yeah, what the heck it's it's always also always says you. Don't have to. Do the whole. Damn hour. You know, if you if it ain't there and. It's been a. Little bit slow in some ways lately and I've been kind of tied up too, but. Do have a few things I want to do give out one thing. This is a popped up once or twice hasn't been too fleshed out. For example, last Wednesday at CNN. The story very brief. There's not much detail here, but military recruitment centers in Russia have been hit by a wave of arson attacks. That's pretty cool. And Tim sent me this. Is is kind of a little cartoon figure. And this is the caption someone asked me if I have plans for the fall. It took me a moment to realize they meant autumn, not the collapse of civilization. Nicely done. This is from. The New Yorker magazine which? It's gotten even worse. It's it's really dreadful scene. It's. But there was a nice cartoon in the new one. Two guys, one guy is a Carpenter. He's sawing wood and somebody is standing near him. Any the letter says, oh me, I make emails standing near the Carpenter. Well, something not so cute at Union Square in Manhattan last Friday was to be a video game giveaway. Which didn't happen and annoyed the people. This is a kind of goofy DJ where whoever he is just kind of known for his pranks. That people fell for this and. Then they were. Kind of did some wreckage at a new subway station and yeah, something of a ride ensued. This was reviewed at a news. And you can see newsletter which is supposedly post left. This is a horrible piece. I haven't read it, but I know who wrote it to Tom Wetzel, also known as Tom Weasel and People and. Know him or knew him in the Bay Area called overcoming capitalism strategy for the working class in the 21st century. Called a major work of anarchism. Says a news. Yeah. Well, of course there's zero about civilization and it's collapse or about technology. It's just tired leftism. A reformed version of syndicalism? As if that isn't bad enough. Vice, by the way, there's a. Source of news. It's fading out. It's. Limping along distance. It's still go there. Check it out. But it doesn't have much. But do you want to mention the Great Uncivilized podcast the latest one? Artemis doing an in-depth interview with our friend Jamie JVL. Worthwhile earliest does these, just they're they're pretty. Lengthy and they really. They really cover the ground and you know, he did. One with Jessica Kraft. We'll probably just have 1520 minutes with her next week, Kate and I. But if you want more of the total goods and you haven't gotten the book yet. Go to. Uncivilized podcast. Well, let's see. You don't have too much else. So here's some here's a few action things. July 1st. At the Moabit prison in Berlin, 3 vehicles. Of apparently of blowing the prison guards were burned. Each charging stations were burned in Bremen, in northern Germany, northwestern Germany on the night of June 15th to the 16th. Also on the night of July 13th to the 14th. With the message that the switch to EVs is a new extractive as push the same old industrial. Exploitation of nature. A green capitalist has sold on the Earth the new mining, et cetera. All that stuff, it's. Not too green. Sustainable. And lovely when you look at it. And also in Germany suburb of Munich. Was the sign of a cell phone tower. Torched on July 16th. July 19th. And Bremen, Bremen again. Audi, belonging to Senator of the Interior. That's the government post, obviously. By the name of Maurer, this guy's name was firebomb near his front door. Anyway, Saturday night this past Saturday night, an arson at the LA City Hall burning object was thrown through a second floor window. Hang on. Oh, we got a color.

Speaker 2: Yeah, we have items.

Speaker 3: Hello. Hello.

Speaker 1: Hello. Hello. Thanks for calling.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I was. I will say I was planning to call before you. Mentioned the podcast. I just want to be clear.

Speaker 1: Oh oh, I'm the new.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I missed the. Unfortunately I missed the 1st 30 minutes I've been so busy and then I. Sat down. I was like it's. Tuesday, I've missed I'm missing the 1st. Half and then as soon as I started in. And you're like, oh, I might have to call it early, you know, call in and here I am.

Speaker 1: There won't be a second 30 minutes, I'm afraid. I'm. I'm done. Yeah, but how are you?

Speaker 3: I'm doing all right. I just wanted to. Yeah, just if you didn't want to continue that school, I just thought I would come in with a something that's slightly irrelevant. If you wanted to talk about it, if you.

Speaker 1: Sure. Ohh yeah, plenty of time.

Speaker 3: Had the time. So. So on the Jamie episode, which I thought.

Speaker 0: From I.

Speaker 3: I always say it's my favorite episode because it seems that this year, as we've joked, is the year of the uncivilized. Each episode is just, I think, rising and. Quality because I'm just getting so much more comfortable doing the interviewer position I guess, and it just it's coming together. But on Jamie's episode someone commented saying said here that Jamie and others like Zerzan are still stuck in the 1960s and basically saying that we're too Marxist in our theory of history. But he posits. That graeber and wind grow, of course. Have figured it out. But he still identifies. As a primitivist.

Speaker 1: Who does?

Speaker 3: This person, who knows by the name of splotch. Yeah, just on the YouTube comments basically says that it's we shouldn't just believe that one thing leads to. Another that holder, cultural hearted culture. Doesn't lead to domestication. Domestication to agriculture and so on, and that these are actually incidental and. You know, I just, I find that interesting, the. Recently says as an anarcho primitivist myself, I assume we need to rethink primitivism and jettison its Marxist framework analysis once and for all. And I just, I was really stunned by that because I feel like he might not have actually listened to what we've been saying on the podcast because he's not responding to anything we actually say.

Speaker 1: Ohh no, that's yeah, that's so turned around. It's just almost inverted to.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And I just, I'm curious, what do you think motivates for me? I find they're so anti. You know people are anti Marxist which I understand that they for me yeah I'm a materialist you know the kind of Marvin Harris cultural materialism and people want to throw the. Baby out with the bath. Water. I guess that's my impression. Anyways. I don't know what. Do you what do you think? Motivates. Motivates that.

Speaker 1: Well, I I don't know. I guess there's two things there. I mean, you know, there's. The analysis that marks provided and then in practice. These groups that are still surviving somehow long past, but maybe we've called the sell by date, you know, into Leninism and Maoism and all the rest of the.

Speaker 0: Right.

Speaker 1: You know, offshoots, which marks that nothing to do with. But yeah, you got to learn from marks. I mean, yeah, that's not as you say. No need to throw that out. Just, you know, try to take it further and build on that and you know in the 21st century, you know. I mean, you know that's that should be kind of a clearer. Project, you know, part of the whole thought. Deal. Yeah, I don't. I don't know. I. But the the people that are that really are pretty darn Marxist, but don't no longer want to cop to it. That's the, you know, that's the slippery part. And the part that isn't straight up. I mean, if you if you're Marxist, you know, defend it, you know. Throw it, throw it out there, put it on the table. But. Don't come on with the slippery stuff like. Graver and wind grow I. Right. I don't know. Yeah.

Speaker 3: He even says these cite numerous examples, but surprise he doesn't list any of those.

Speaker 1: Examples. Gosh, you know.

Speaker 3: And then even says that you can have states without civilization, which to me like that's foundationally like, how can you be a primitivist but then believe states can exist can exist in the absence of civilization? Because to me, class society and States and civilization are synonymous. Like we can't have one without the other. So I. I don't know. It was just a very confusing. Comments section that just. Continued to like devolve because I was like, well, not all hunter gatherers are egalitarian and he goes on to say, well, not all hunter gatherers were. Egalitarian I was. Like, well, yeah, I I. Just said that so. I don't. I feel like maybe you're not listening.

Speaker 1: Especially if you define hunter gatherers as, you know, talking about, not other gatherings. I mean, and as you pointed out, you know, Jamie said. The scholarship, you know, just to get back to that level, they'd be fired on the basis of, you know, the the scholarship thing, you know, the goods. That's you can run it down. You can check it out. And I do recall and I don't want to, you know, overdo this, but I was somewhat. I was trying to be a little bit worried about the examples I cited. As maybe I'm cherry picking. You know, they maybe a couple of weak things, but that doesn't, you know, torpedo the whole boat. But then when I heard windrow gave a talk this after, you know. His partner died. I mean his co-author died. They were exactly the two I thought of. And he was the one who chose them. So weird from that, I knew I wasn't cherry picking. Just to make a point and not, you know, giving. You know proper time to the bulk of the thing you know. But he was he was. They were his two bulwark examples in the speech he gave. So you know that kind of thing.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Then I know I find it interesting, but I guess some of the last things I'll mention is, as you talked about on civilized is we finally hit 1000 subscribers, which is really great. And we've since your episode and particularly because of Jessica's and even jamies, is that we've. Had the highest. View count we've ever had on the channel.

Speaker 1: Wow, cool.

Speaker 3: It's really great and I know some people 1000's not a lot but to be anti civilization on YouTube and then to put out the content to me that's that's pretty cool because we're not the main cause. We're not appealing to. A mainstream idea, you know.

Speaker 1: Right, right.

Speaker 3: The uphill battle it's really. Easy to be an anarcho liberal. Make a channel and get a bunch of views and. There are people like that. If you're appealing to people. You're appealing to a a. Status quo morality. You're just being a little more radical. With it, right?

Speaker 1: It wouldn't fly. Though, but yeah, that's that's awesome 1000. That's right again. Oh, and by the way, Speaking of that, that. Here's my memory. I just had a phone call with Peter Warby 5th estate editor. One of the editors over there. And he's got a new book called Eat The Rich. It's a collection of essays. Maybe you heard about it and it's he said it's not doing.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: It isn't a big deal like you know, some are the, some are on fire, the novel. It really was pretty big. I mean, it was huge in Detroit anyway. Well done, very well written. People this you know. I can tell you how how much books of essays sell from my own experience, but anyway, I mean, no, he's pleased about that. And we had a good conversation and I think he'll be on the energy radio pretty soon. We had a we had, it was good, we hadn't. Talked in quite a while and. And into that a little bit.

Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe. Maybe we got to get him on the podcast because it's just been. I've been kind of monopolizing if you. You speak against civilization. I want you. On the podcast so.

Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I think that. Would be a darn good. Idea. Yeah. He's a very interesting cat and he's. You know, he's I don't know how to put this, but he's he's really sympathetic to where we're at. Although you wouldn't. You wouldn't see that so hugely in the 5th estate. And they need to be clear about that. But so he's kind of.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 1: I don't know. It's kind of hard. Way to walk, I guess. You know, because he's not the only editor. So if sometimes I've gotten pretty bugged at some of the issues that. Fairly weak, frankly, but there's a good guy and talk about radio voice you've ever heard Peter. I mean, he's he's got the voice. It'll be. It'll be very cool. So do you. And that that should be fun too. You go into depth with really nicely and I think you're very correct in saying you're they're getting better and better your podcasts, and they've always been good, really good. But now they're even better.

Speaker 0: I appreciate that.

Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just funny because now we're getting comments and some of the older videos from people, you know, cause Jessica with her connections just blowing the videos up, and now we're getting people engaging with, like, old content. I'm like, oh. Don't look at. Those no. Don't look. Don't look at. The old stuff. Oh oh, but yeah, it's just I always I want to say, you know, whenever me and the other uncivilized people like Brady, Gavin and Emmanuel, you know, we hear you or other people talk about the podcast. It feels great knowing that it's not just we're in a bubble because sometimes it feels that way when a video doesn't do well or it's the same people that engage with it. Did you? Want to engage with more than just your circle?

Speaker 1: Sure, sure.

Speaker 3: So like when we hear, because I've had people come to the podcast or the scene or other projects because they mentioned, oh, well, you always call them the John Show or John mentioned this and you know it's so cool to like see I guess. The web of primitivism and anti SIV kind of expanding a little bit, kind of like the net to catch more people to put it in a weird way.

Speaker 1: Sure, sure. And this has to.

Speaker 0: You know.

Speaker 1: Be acknowledged, I mean. A news which I trash on through the often you know, they're they're aware of it. They you know, they they're not allergic to having your podcast up sometimes.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And they and you know, and sometimes they they talk pretty nice. I don't listen to it too often. But they're energy news. Podcast I think that's the name of it. Where they do like a verbal overview when they do reviews, they're usually pretty generous. Sometimes they didn't speak so nicely to that episode I had. With you, I will admit.

Speaker 1: Big surprise.

Speaker 3: Right. But you know, they like you said, like they're really good because I've had people reach out. They're like, hey, they talked about you. And I kind of forgot about anarchist news to be honest. And like they. Talk about you. A lot. I was like they do.

Speaker 1: Oh wow, I didn't. Know that either. I I haven't heard that that the weekly Roundup. In a while.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And I now I try to listen in and they don't accept every podcast because I I know they have their own idea of what is anarchist to news and that's fine. Like for example, they didn't accept the Jessica episode, but as you pointed out to me, I missed it. The Jamie episode. I thought they turned. That one down. And even there, believe it or not, there's been decent engagement with Jamie's ideas on anarchist news. Which is pretty rare, thoughtful.

Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty rare.

Speaker 3: Thoughtful comments is something I didn't anticipate seeing in the interest news comments.

Speaker 1: There's a lot of direct. There's a lot of embarrassing stuff, but there's, you know, there's sometimes there's something that's OK.

Speaker 3: Well, I'll, I'll leave it there, I. Appreciate every time being able to call in, even if sometimes I feel like, you know, I'm stealing the airwaves. Well, the, you know, the. The callers at the gates, you know.

Speaker 1: You hardly. You're rescuing the project, and I thank you.

Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you have.

Speaker 3: A. You have a great night, John.

Speaker 1: Thanks. Take care.

Speaker 0: You too.

Speaker 1: Yes, indeed, he came to the rescue. Well, you know what?

Speaker 2: What do you what do you want to do?

Speaker 1: Let's do that. Some people will hate it. You know you hate it, probably. But anyway, yeah, we got. Directories somewhat, well, not somewhat famous. Famous Symphony #3. This is the second movement. Yeah, we're going to. Hear that and thanks for listening. It wasn't to flower, but. I appreciate it in the. Take care out there.



Fern's talk at Sam Bond's. West is ablaze. Southwest becoming unlivable. N. Atlantic current may soon stop. Weekend carnage. Homelessness as damaged people. Sharp overall health decline. Island of Tuvalu going under; virtual future. Robots with chatbot brains.Technology as pandemic. New zines, books, gatherings. Resistance reports. One call.

Speaker 1: The news expressed on this program are not necessarily the views of kwva radio or the associated students of the University of Oregon. Anarchy Radio is an editorial collage providing analysis and opinions of John Zerzan and the community at large.

Speaker 3: That's right. You're listening to kW V AU gene. You're here in the studio with John. The number, of course is 541-346-0645. It is time for anarchy radio. Right after we take a short break.

Speaker 2: You can't tell me that I didn't even try. Staring at the country still blinds my eyes. Television playing the reflection is crazy. What into myself, was it ever a time?

Speaker 4: I said no. No compromise, too stubborn, crazy.

Speaker 2: When the fire scrolls, you bring all your best friends home. The after party rules. Do you ever.

Speaker 4: Want to be alone?

Speaker 2: Rest your flight an. Angel, the vision brings. Me such strength. Yeah, I'm jealous of your spirit. That's hanging just by. Promise to stubborn.

Speaker 5: See each other.

Speaker 2: Around till we.

Speaker 4: Collide and cry.

Speaker 2: Burning inside my head. My words don't. Affect you, so forget.

Speaker 4: About all I'm saying.

Speaker 2: You only with those.

Speaker 4: At night.

Speaker 2: Cigarette and Buster, this Tony was shining.

Speaker 1: Video for August Wind, where there was a mystery fail last week. No recording. Don't know why? Hope for a better result this week for this week's show. I wanted to start off by saying something about ferns presentation that Sam Bond Sunday night. It was the final entry in the Tuts from the WIT series produced by Ian. And any way to wind that up, it was a. Was a great talk about her two years exploring in the Pacific Northwest the. Various kinds of intentional community. Groups, mostly small. We've tried to. Get out of the grid and. You know, break out of that and. Establish some community. Yeah, very interesting stuff indeed in the discussion. Was very lively, very late on to lots of things. One thing I noticed about the discussion. I think this is probably true in general. People are asking what is going on, what's going to happen next, what the heck is it all about kind of thing? Which kind of veered away? In particular, is from. What friend is talking about? I mean, not entirely, of course. But anyways, interesting to see. That's the tenor. Of questions, or at least some of them, and. Yeah, people were trying to explore stuff and, you know, one of the takeaways, in fact, probably the last kind of bottom line thing she had to say about her experience, what she got out of. Running across these various groups. In their projects in the Pacific Northwest was. It seemed like she was imagining, or maybe expecting that this would be the note of deprivation would be there. Pretty big? I mean, giving up everything and going off and, you know, trying to do something without the conveniences that's part of it. Anyway, and anyway, she said, now the bottom line was Joy was a joyful deal. That's what. That's what these folks are about fundamentally so. So that was very cool to hear. Because she didn't go in there with any imposed. Paradigm or expectations. But that's what she came came away with. That was good, highly interesting stuff and. And that will be. The last installment for community television talks from the wood. I think that's Thursday evening at 7. These these talks have been. Televised till 29 locally. Anyway, oh boy, the West is burning. And not only the West, of course, but out West down here, major fires in nine states. Fire in Washington state has burned into Canada, and a California fire. That's the Malawi fire is burned into Nevada. And meanwhile, stories about refugees and the southern border. Of the US denied refuge from the sun. That's. And Phoenix wound up a month. 31 days of temperatures reaching at least 110. In that area, iconic Saguaro cactus. That's the. That's the dominant thing there, down into northern Mexico too, but it's. Certainly in that part of Arizona, they're collapsing. From the heat. Cactus, you know, can't take the heat. That's that's not the only desert foliage, it's. Crapping out because of the unbearable heat, the southwest is becoming unlivable. That's that's kind of the bottom line. That's that's where we're heading pretty fast too. Well, there was a piece on the fires in Canada Sunday, New York Times magazine, the general conclusion, and I quote, I think all of us are going to have to accept there's going to be a lot more fire. Yeah. As things stand, one fire. Burning off the coast of Netherlands for a week. Hundreds of E vehicles? Well, I think it was put out today. I think they can do an end today. There's a research outfit called Climate Central. This is a story on NPR last Wednesday that cities this is somewhat well known. Cities are 8 to 10 degrees hotter than surrounding rural areas. Do concrete parking lots and so forth. They are heat islands and getting back to Phoenix, that's that's. That's all of these things, plus urban sprawl. I mean, it's sprawls like LA. But it's hotter. And it's more concrete in Phoenix anyway. Part of that picture, and one of the very earliest note, if not the earliest civilization along with Egypt, is Miss Potamia. Yeah, cradle of civilization between the two rivers. You know, all that sort. Of stuff. Running dry. There's the peace in Sunday's New York Times. A climate warning from the cradle of civilization no less. Yeah. Where? Where it began and where it's ending and not the only place it's ending. Of course. It's a global thing. Well, you know, having a. Not a recording from last week if. Some of you of. Course you've got the show via radio signal or the. Or the instant streaming but. I heard from quite a lot of people that wait for the recording, that it's the middle of the night and the event or whatever it is. Or some other excuse, but so I might. I'm going to mention one or two things from last week's show, but otherwise I won't.

Speaker 3: Reproduce that I think I found the another copy of it. You know we we recorded too. So I just looked at the back up in the back up. Cool seems to play.

Speaker 1: Oh, I can put that up.

Speaker 3: Yeah, I'll send. I'll send it to you when we're done.

Speaker 1: Oh, OK. Great. Thank you, Carl. Well, never mind what I. Just said. I won't need to do that at all.

Speaker 3: Never, never mention it again.

Speaker 1: Well, unless it's my piece that I've read, that is mine and. It will be tempting. To read it again, just because it's mine. But I shouldn't. And he probably won't if unless we. Get a phone call or two. I won't be tempted at all. And that is 541-346-0645. Well, another staple of these grizzly times is the weekend is the time for the mass shootings. I don't know why, but in the past few months here at least a couple of months, it seems like. All of them, as far as I know, have been confined to pretty much Saturday night. Get togethers at the bar or any block parties or gatherings weekends. And that's when the gunfire breaks out. There were nine mass shootings over this past weekend. Yeah, on Monday, headline was. Yeah, the nine mass shootings rocked U.S. cities, leaving 5 dead 56 injured. That's now at the rate of two every single day. And that frequency is on the rise. And I mentioned that's what we know about. There might have been. At at this place in time, there might have been even a couple more we don't know about. And you know the plague of homelessness is it's just the same story. The worsening story. And you know the the focus is. We're going to have more resources for low income housing, right? We're going to have, we're going to dedicate and focus on that. The different ways to house people cheaply, you know, these tiny houses and all the. Rest of it. You know, and hopefully. Get to work on that. Not working. What's what seems to be left out is is a pretty darn obvious thing. The damage. A lot of these people are damaged. You know, it doesn't do any good to say, well, you could be on a week out of work for a week and then you're almost well, actually, not so much. And anywhere you go. I'm afraid we run into these people raving on the streets, right? That is a matter of just missing a paycheck or two. It's just not. These people are just out of it, you know? And I don't have any figures on that. But you know, it's it's kind of in your face and it's it's so. Sad. I mean you. How are you going to fix it? Just by? Building something if when the individuals involved or. They're not there. And that's the that's the really even worse. Part of it is. You know, wandering around if Chrissy wants them to have a place to sleep and. Maybe a bit of safety, but it's. You know that's not. The whole picture there. You know a big an in the. General Welter of all this? The conditions that are worsening, for example, last Friday. There was a story from the journal the Journal of American Medical. With Jewel of the American. Medicine Network open it's. A long name for a journal. All about how more US women are drinking themselves to death. The. The alcohol related deaths are on the rise overall. 12.5% annually for men. 15% up for women per year since 2018. You know, not a huge difference, but. The women have caught up in a past. Man in terms of. Alcohol fatality. You know. Why would that be, Chris? That's his question that. It doesn't much get asked. Well, some health stuff today. I've read a couple of pieces in the past few days about the rise in tick borne diseases, the rise of everything. I guess in terms of. In healthy conditions, but. From the CDC's emerging Infectious Diseases outfit, leprosy is on the rise. What next? Brain eating amoeba and you know all this stuff. I mean, this is still rare. It's not a big tide of leprosy. In this country, or pretty much the presumably anywhere else but Central Florida. Is a relative hot bed of leprosy. I'm not looking for the scariest stuff imaginable, but boy, it sure does. Little puppy in your face. And how much do we know about it? I mean, in different ways, the INTERCEPT reports that. Over 17,000 news media jobs. Or lost have been lost so far this year and you could say, well, a few fewer journalists with with something lives there. But as part of it, you know, lack of information, more centralized media.

Speaker 0: OK.

Speaker 1: These trained radio complexes, for example, there's no local. Well, there certainly are local newspapers, local radio, but way less than there used to be. Uh, let's see. We got some strange recalls here 4. Trader Joe's projects products. Have been recalled in a week. This is of as of late last week. Cookies, soups. Falafel. May contain rocks or insects. Trader Joe's isn't that kind of upscale.

Speaker 3: Nice thing about that is that you know, if you find something that you like at Trader Joe, it's never gonna be there when you go back the next time. That's kind of like the hallmark of Trader Joe's. Yeah. You, you go there, you fight. Uh, man, I love this like cookie or whatever. And you and they're just they're they're famous for that.

Speaker 7: What do you know?

Speaker 1: Why is that?

Speaker 3: A winner, they get all their stuff. Packaged it's it's basically brand name stuff, but it's all packaged under the Trader Joe's brand, so if something isn't working, they can just. Well it it's very kind of nimble that. Way I guess.

Speaker 1: I've been in there, but not much.

Speaker 3: Man, I mean, if you like rocks. And Bugs get out of my way. Went in there.

Speaker 1: Well, yeah. Four times in. A week, I mean. That's pretty CD. And meanwhile, Ford is recalling 870,000. Of their famous F-150 pickup trucks, that's that's their big number. F-150 pickups? Faulty braking. No faulty parking brakes. Your truck might just roll down the hill, I guess. And another story. This is not new either, but. Domestic fish. It's a piece called the new Fish. The truth about farmed salmon and the consequences. We can. No longer ignore. Yeah, that's the deal. Simon Sacher in congenital ostly. The Norwegian riders, they think. And just this just keeps getting to be a worse picture, at least from. The stuff I read now and then. More parasites. Viruses. Yeah, I was just just thinking kind of stuff. And these fish are pinned up and I guess they pump chemicals in there. And one of the and the other problem. Is that gets out into the open seas, so wild fish. Then I have their health. Undermined. Not good. What is good about domestication? Well, you know, all this stuff is kind of trivial. The the only news is what happens with Trump. And of course you got the big one today. The big indictment for the January 6th thing. That's all there is in. The news, it's all of it. You know your mainstream cable news and all that. Remember when we were doing green anarchy magazine from 2000 to 2008? That's the exact length the exact years of George Bush, the George Bush presidency. We never once mentioned George Bush and remember, all the Liberals are going to leave the country because George Bush was the devil and. You know what? When you think back. What could be more silly? I mean, what? What? The hell difference does that make really I? Mean now isn't that much further down the road. How many years further and it's still the same old. Sneak charmer deal. We got to we got to talk about Trump and nothing else. Because this is the, this is the pure dystopia. It's the end of the world. Except, of course, it's worse with every president successively. You know, because it has to do and point out the more than obvious the whole thing is getting worse on a basic level. The basic drivers of all this. It doesn't matter all that much. Who is the president? Sorry. I know there are differences, but I mean, you know, look at the general. Well, it's a good thing there are some answers. Not that anyone's listening or. Maybe wanting to pay attention to that much, I don't know. This piece today this is popped up before. The small island of Tuvalu. Population 11,000. That island nation is midway between Australia and Hawaii. Will be out there in the middle of the South Pacific. And it'll be underwater fairly soon in a few decades completely underwater. It will then become a digital nation. Yeah, it will exist in the metaverse. To immortalize what was lost, in other words, a virtual Tuvalu. Just as good, maybe better. Than an actual. Tuvalu in reality and. Yeah, yeah. Well, to clinic Cliche can't make this stuff up. And here's a great add. This is the end of. The week I'm neglecting that. Infinity X10 add. And it shows the teenager watching his even younger brother. Jump around in his VR goggles. And the slave, the older boy. Watching them jump around. With the virtual reality thing in his head. And he says, when I was his age, I tried to keep up with the games. Now he is the game. And that is. Way more true than. I bet the ad people. They wrote that realize. Yeah, becoming the machine now. He is the game. That should scare the hell out of people, but I'm probably it's goes past people, unbeknownst to pretty much. But it is truer than true. Here's another one. This is a rival for. Out of the week. This is from something called Project Liberty. The Project Liberty Action Network no less, and they have a plan. Capital PLAN. And this takes off. From this is the part of the ad. It shows a young woman looks like at the dinner table. Maybe the breakfast table home from school. With a family. In the vicinity, sitting down around there. And she's not present. She's on her phone. You know, there's the indictment right there. And the ad goes on to point out that. This is bad, but you can't tackle this alone. OK. That's interesting so far. Well, now we come to Project Liberty Action Network. And this is what that amounts to. It's a movement to build a better Internet. Responsible development of the Internet, healthier social media. So she'll still be glued glued to the. Screen right? Why? Why wouldn't she be? The addictive nature, but. But no, it's it's not a matter of throwing all that out, that mesmerizing. Garbage. That's. Causing a mental health crisis pretty much by itself among the young, and we know we just have to kind of clean it up a little and we're concerned and we're responsible and. Yeah, what a con job. Man, that happens so often, right. You present the thing. Which everybody knows about already, and on some level, was spooked by. Is aware of it and it ain't good and everybody knows it, but. I can tackle this alone. And you can't tackle it at all. OK. Yeah, I got a little more tech stuff and then we got some. Political resistance kind of stuff after the break. There's a let's see, this is. Well, there's a lot of this at The Verge and the various places, but. One thing that's going on is that. Zuckerberg's meta? Is going to be coming out with. Personas 30 distinct quote personalities to help people connect and interact. In other words, like Siri, but they have different so-called, you know, one could be like Abraham Lincoln, another.

Speaker 2: One would be.

Speaker 1: Bono or whoever you want, I guess you can chat with an AI is what it boils down to. You know, it's just. Robots. Robots get smart robots with chatbot brains. That's another piece. Last Saturday. It's kind of all of the piece that's that's the project. And they're working on. There is a quest for an Everything app, an app to doodle, and that would be the state of unlimited interactivity. Yeah, the the connection, the interactivity. Which is pretty much extinct. You have machines interacting with each other, but. No human interactivity, really. Not much. Just. On the screen it's. It's that kind of a so-called the communication. Yeah, there's lots of ways to look at this. You can look at technology as a pandemic. You know, I was talking to somebody and they brought up the plague that canoe. Novel from the 50s and when you think about it, it's it's kind of it's kind of that sort of thing kind of plague like. It's it's kind of an occupation. You know you you are engulfed in this. Pandemic, engulfed in the technology and. What's the answer? What's? Where's the solution? Where's the way out? Well, they're closing the doors. They're trying to close the doors to that in any. Particular way, for example, last Wednesday at The Verge was a piece about how open AI. One of the very first people toward the end of last year to come out with the chat bots. You know has shut down its function to tell what's an AI product and what's not. About that and that kind of a distinction that's kind of primary. Well, they they used to have this thing which would detect. Which one it is? Is this AI speaking, so to speak or? Or it isn't. You know, it's a genuine thing. For one thing, it didn't work. It was way too inaccurate, but I think probably on a deeper level. They don't want, they don't want. The distinction they don't want you to. Till which is which were paused to consider what the difference is, what the consequences are. For such a distinction, well, see, we've got. What do we have for the break? We got some music.

Speaker 3: Arab strap.

Speaker 1: Armstrong. Yeah, that's a band. You certainly. Heard of?

Speaker 7: I see through your swagger, I sleep up your sickness. I find what is lost. And thrown away. Stop for your secrets, thy bend for your blood. I kill corruption. So I love son of the day. I'm a wallflower and the. Darkness and fireproof. Close. Undercover, undervalued, underpaid, right? The edges and the cracks behind the carbon. I am invisible. I am human right man.

Speaker 6: Those streets. These hands, they fell 3 streets up.

Speaker 7: And you're already dreaming. As I claw up your condom, as your syringe cracks underneath that boot. Crashed on the. Church passed them. Such a lover, such a liar. Such a. Unless the. Evidence destroyed. Your sleep will be sent. I'm your Angel. You're a countless.

Speaker 6: Through the streets. And discussion please.

Speaker 2: Healthy streets.

Speaker 6: So these. Healthy streets.

Speaker 1: That was true back after 18 years. It's about hopelessness and darkness, but in a fun way. Fun fun, very cool. Kind of like Leonard Cohen. A little bit with Scottish accent. Well, I've got a confession to make. Speaking of technology and melding with the machine, Cyborg wise. I have. I'm in a study about muscle. Toe and muscle fatigue. Pairing. Men and women. In their 20s, with old people like me. And check this out, Carl.

Speaker 3: Whoa, you're being monitored. You're chipped.

Speaker 1: I am. Yeah, I'm wearing this device to measure activity. So we'll I'll show those young. Upstarts who has muscle tone by surviving and getting paid by this. Doctor on campus. Pretty interesting stuff. Yeah. Anyway, see some news. You know, this is a. Refreshing thing partly during the some people there is a revitalization of enterprise print media underway. For example, rupture is a new scene rupture number one out of DC. Also, some new stuff along these lines from from New York City, Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. So that's the East Coast deal. And I just ran into it, one that I've never heard of called dissolution. They didn't find out too much about it, but they're issue #2, which is new. One thing they. One thing contained in #2 is a piece called after the end of the world by Morgan Heenan. Which explores possibilities. You know, accompanying the end of civilization. I wanted to talk about. Plastic and uterine, but the. Copies haven't shown up by. I gave my copy away or I lost it somehow anyway, and we'll do that next week. Pretty sure. And Speaking of. Plastic and Ultera is a very excellent uncivilized podcast. By the same person. Responsible for Pru interview conversation with Jessica? Crew craft. Very in depth about her book about the need to be wild. Yeah, I'll be talking to her on the 15th in two weeks, so I don't want to. Get too much into that. Well, interesting gathering about a week ago. In southeast France, in the euro area, which is, which was a an anarchist stronghold for sure. Over the years since the 1900s, actually or 1800. At sand in the air, thousands showed up for a five day anarchist gathering there. In fact, they crowded the tracks. So much in the small place. That the train service was shut down and overrunning the place. Concerts, films, talks, dramatic performances, all kinds of stuff. And one sad thing that happened to and you consideration table. Was attacked as a little bit of a fight. I guess there's trash for carrying a feminist book. And one blessing religion, both of which had an anti radical Islam orientation, I understand. Assailants were possibly jihadists. I don't know if that's known for sure. You know, and another piece just today in the New York Times, this is a. Story that will go away. This is called gatherers, God game, women or hunters too. It's the same. Thing I've brought up because there've been some research on this that this one is by Katrina Miller. And it's a reexamination of gender roles. And hunter gatherer life. Yeah, making that point, that's. Undoing the the for so long this I mean this has been coming. This is in part is already happened. For example the somewhat famous man the Hunter Conference way back in 1966. And The upshot of that conference that anthropology conference was that that was a misnomer, that it was kind of. A joke man, the hunter. But the point there I think they recall reading about it mostly, was that most sustenance came from gathering 80% in general, which was largely women, so. It didn't it. Didn't really dislodge the gender stereotypes all that. Much, but now. It's and that's moved. Move forward. Well, here's something that's kind of remained the same and. I I don't want to. Dwell on this too much, but Ria sent me a. News about a book by Danny Nichols called cops Don't kill canine cops, do they? And I guess it starts out with the thing about police dog culture. And the brutality and the bullying involved in that. And I think it backs up. She reproduced chapter 3. So I only know. Really that much about the book? But. It seems to see that. This has to do with speciesism. Humans started to rule the roost. With hunting, that's the origin of bullying. That's where domination of nature and other species comes in. But before that it mentioned. The cheetah goes after the. The deer in the in the Savannah. But that's not a case of bullying. So it wasn't explained why humans hunting. Is is a matter of bullying in a fundamental way? Which? Lead us down the path to. The current horrible industrial. Domestication world. You know, and this it seems like this kind of retails the same story we were originally herbivores, but then then this happened in. And domestication or the the move to. To agriculture from private properties just to hire final final. Level of what started well before with hunting. Yeah, this is just another way of telling that story. And I don't see it as all that coherent or cogent. Quite frankly, if you think that's the answer, then you need to explain. I mean. Or at least address that turning point. Why? Why did that happen and why is that the original bullying hunting? I mean if. Moving away from being vegan, you know that's the sin anyway I. You can repeat that forever, but I don't think that holds up. In terms of the literature. I really don't anyway. Thank you. Anyway, we we can maybe talking about it some more sometime. Well, black flags anarchist review, but this is the annual I think this is the annual. Thing it's the summer. 2023 issue this is a syndicalist Zen. So tired and irrelevant. Virtually nothing from the past 100 years. It's mostly from the 1800s. Although a recent issue. Had a piece about David Graver just gushing over. In which? Might make one pause to wonder from that perspective. Why is he so fantastic? Yeah, maybe because it was. Just weak reformist nothingness. He, of course, was an editor of in these times, a very tepid reformist socialist thing. OK, I'm going to not beat that dinners anymore. And there are so many interest book fairs. There's been an influence of return. Post pandemic, a bunch of them going on, they've been reborn. But what is the politics? What does the anarchist mean? And I've? You know, I've been. Can you nasty to the point of wondering? Lots of innocuous will be the last to know. And be the last to catch on Trump ski apparently we'll never get it. What this is really all about the nature of civilization and all that stuff. Technology. That's. No, no, it's this horrid old stuff that wasn't valid in the 1st place because it never questioned industrialism, never questioned mass production, which caused mass society. And has caused us to live in this. Condition of Amy and. Calling us. Somebody asked me about the FBI, whether I've had any news on my FOIA request, my Freedom of Information request. Which I started up for the. Benefit of the archive of my stuff. I haven't heard from them in two years. The last one last letter was from the FBI two years ago. Well, we're looking into it. You know, it's how many years altogether, I think it's been some like four years or I'm I have to guess. Maybe more than that. When I started this, maybe five years, I'm not sure. Yeah, they just just to run around, I guess their policy, no matter who's president, by the way, right is to not do anything with these requests. Or another option would be. I get this gigantically redacted bunch of stuff that I'll have to pay for the for the printing of the copying of it, and it won't have anything. Who knows? I don't really care much, but. That's been a little mini saga there. And somebody asked, is anything happening with my memoir? And the answer is no, nothing nothing is happening and for a good reason. I have to confess it isn't book length. What I wrote is just the skeleton of a book, so I'm going to put that. On the shelf. Maybe return to it in a few months? I only have maybe 25,000 words. That's not book length. And they had to. But the the length never came up during these. Interactions and so. I I sort of forgot about that aspect that factor in. Anyway, so I got to get to work on that or find a biographer or some other way of getting out of it.

Speaker 0: But I.

Speaker 1: Think there's more I can discuss and more happening since I stopped writing this thing. You know, quite a few months ago. And just get back to work on that and. Might be a good idea and then it would be book length and the full house will publish it pretty much sense. So it's just a matter of that's like a pamphlet. 2025 thousand words, you know, not. Much more than that. So that stands. That's where that stand. Few action things here. July 13th, the car belonging to the Nature DJI Company, which plunders the earth, was burned in Barcelona. On July 11th, an incendiary attack on the humbug. Mine transformer which parallelized operations. New juice to operate the mid horrible mining project in the western part of Germany. On July 10th. I'm kind of doing this in reverse over my nose and my 2 BMW's were torched in Munich. In support of climate activists facing prosecution. Yeah, I don't have much today or no yesterday. This was posted July 31st and Bridges Lane 5. Famous disputed crude oil and natural gas pipeline. To the tune of millions of gallons going through there every day in the Great Lakes Region of Canada, Wisconsin. Was shut down. By closing 2 valves. And the perpetrators? Let them know that this was happening, so it didn't. It wasn't going to blow up or. Kill anyone and just close the whole thing down. And I don't know the status of. That I don't know. How long that's lasting, but sounds like a simple deal to just shut it off. And let him know at the other end that's. Ain't happening. One last chance to call grab up that phone at 541-346-0645. I have to announce this phone this out this afternoon. Catherine won't be available this month. Due to various factors, family stuff and other travel plans and. Events that she's dealing with. Yeah, she won't be down here to cohost until September. And yeah, I'm missing that. And. It will be good to get. Back with her to. Do we show together every month? Well, that's about it. We're going to just we got a system of a down, we got some music to finish it up. Thanks for listening. I hope you're managing the heat and the fires. Take care. You last minute, Charlie. Artemis.

Speaker 0: You know how it is.

Speaker 1: Now I'm glad to get you in. How you doing?

Speaker 0: Yeah, I think.

Speaker 8: I'm good. I think it's still playing. Music though I'm. I'm listening on the the. The Internet version of it.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Ohh yeah, it's delayed.

Speaker 8: OK. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. So I guess I just wanted to hop in real quick mostly because yeah asked, but. You were talking about the syndicalists and how it's all kind of. It's all nonsense, 19th century stuff. And I guess, you know, I've been having a little bit more debate, I guess with other with other anarchists recently. And the one question I keep coming to is like, what are what are you afraid? Of like, why are you unwilling to to go further? And they're like, well, because this is what anarchism is. And I think that's that's such a a cowardly answer that, you know, they're willing to advance the cause of feminism, decolonization or other issues and to anarchism. But they're not willing to to advance that critique. And so my curiosity is, why do you think anarchists? Or so. So many anarchists are unwilling to incorporate anti civilization. Is it because it's too uncomfortable that that left anarchism really isn't that radical, or is it? Or is it something else?

Speaker 1: Boy, that's a good question. That's just. It's fixing it's uh. Yeah, I don't. I don't know. I've I've just. It's such a puzzle. I've I tried to start working on the topic of conspiracy theory, and I'm not equating leftism with conspiracy theory. But, you know, people can get stuck in ways that, you know, don't really make a lot of sense. I mean, what what is the relevance? Do you see? With with sticking with something that's nobody's interested in, let's face it, it doesn't correspond to the world. I mean, what's up with that? I don't know.

Speaker 8: Yeah, I I just. Keep coming back to that because I'm writing this piece. Does Anarcho primitivism still matter and it's kind of like a rhetorical credit dialogue kind of thing, like responding to possible answers and like even this idea that like, well, well, primitivism never mattered right or whatever or this this idea that it's just it's it's anarchism in name only. And that's such an unintelligent. Response because it's like if you take green anarchy magazine and that was the biggest at the time, the biggest anarchist magazine in North America. So it's like, fundamentally that doesn't work if it's the biggest anarchist magazine. Don't tell me all those people weren't anarchists that subscribed, you know.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, sorry, that's not true.

Speaker 8: Right. It still just doesn't make sense to me.

Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true. It's it's funny. Yeah, I guess we'll find out. I mean, that's as it as usual, you know, stay tuned kind of the. Thing and. You know we we're trying to figure out what what is a foot? You know, what is? You know, I was talking about ferns presentation two nights ago and. Lovely questioning, lots of very, very lively. It was just and that's that's that none of that stuff has been. Publicized all that much and it was mostly of kind of a studio thing for taping it for Community TV. We we were never expecting big crowds. Alright, anyway, that's since it's been. Kind of nice to. See you. You know, you you wonder what it what? This is it not on people's minds? I mean, have you? You haven't noticed popular culture. It's all about collapse, you know, it's all about the wars of technology and not to mention the news itself. You know, chat bots just occupying, you know, taking over people's brains. On jobs and everything else, and what are these people? What sort of time zone do they happen to be in that?

Speaker 8: Yeah. Yeah, it's it's interesting. Because these men talk about how it's how a lot. Of media tries. To recuperate some of the anti tech feelings are anti self feelings but like Black Mirror or even like these movies in in in TV shows or books that are so fascinated with like collapse like oh and post apocalyptic world it's like is that not like an undercurrent like what is the subconscious meaning of that that people are so interested in that. Some people would rather say, oh, I'd rather live in a zombie apocalypse than capitalism. And I mean, that's some people. Yeah, it's a little bit of an. Exaggeration, but how? How? Upset and dehumanized people feel that they rather live in a world that you can be eaten alive by zombies than now you know.

Speaker 1: Yeah, the general displeasure, to put it mildly with. With the whole technological immersion is, you know that's front and center, I mean and well, especially among younger people I guess. But you know that's do you think that's they're making it up or something. I mean they they're chafing it. You know so many ways in in horrible ways you know on a visceral level. Every day and. They they're just not interested. Yeah, I mean. That's just seems kind of brain dead, quite frankly. And these people, you know, I've got to my way sometimes to trash on Trump ski or graver or both. But, you know, they they never get it. They just don't. They just it's an ideological thing and that's the nature of that. Least right there. I mean, that's the ideology formation has long been a big problem. You know, you get stuck on something, whatever it is, and you can't see anything else. It's a it's a mystery.

Speaker 8: Yeah, it it's so interesting. And I'm not gonna lie every time I like to call in and, you know, especially if it's graver related, you know, I just, I have to admit, sometimes it's a little funny when you, when you get upset about them because I feel it. But. It's so it's so. I can't not. I I have to admit it's entertaining when, because it's very obvious. The deep critique you have, Chomsky and graver, these people that are just, you know, they're shilling. Civilization. That's as simple as it is, and that they what they do is academically. Untrue. And as Jamie talked about on the podcast, that they should have lost their jobs. Like Gregor and window shop. For their books should have lost like. He's of the. Thing they should have lost their their jobs for that to how dishonest that book is.

Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. He sure. Proves the depth of that, isn't he? That's wonderful.

Speaker 8: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll let you go because you only have a few minutes, but I felt, you know, I. Had to do my duty and it's all in.

Speaker 1: Ohh thanks. Yeah, a little harassment and you rose to the. Challenge. Thank you, man.

Speaker 8: Yeah, you have a great night.

Speaker 1: Take care.

Speaker 5: Stop your eyes. To stop. Psycho, OK.



Where is it NOT burning? Oppenheimer...and Barbie: radiation vs. a plastics world. Which is worse? Spread of mass shootings. Online all the time (mental health crisis). Fake summit re: controlling AI. Grunts who power AI, problems of EVs. "Yes, Collapse" by JZ. Fern at Sam Bond's 7/30. Resistance reports catch-up.



Kathan co-hosts. Globe is a furnace. Nowhere to hide. "US Sets Record Mass Killing Deaths." Daniel Everett interview: Fidias Podcasts. JZ on Uncivilized Podcast. with Artxmis and friends. Chinese youth are "lying flat." Douglas Hofstadter is horrified by AI. "Stop the [tech] Carousel, I Want to Get Off," Houston Chronicle. Myth of AI as 'just a tool.' New black metal from indigenous Sga'gahsawah. One call.

Speaker 1: As a snowflake, I looked over, I saw you next to me.

Speaker 2: Energy Radio is an editorial collage made-up of the voices of guests, callers and its host, John Zerzan. The opinions expressed are those of the speakers and not necessarily those of kW, BA, Eugene or anyone else.

Speaker 3: That's right. You're listening to kW, VA, Eugene. It is Tuesday, 7:00 and time for Anarchy radio. I'm here in the studio with John and Catherine tonight. And our number, as always, is 541-346-0645. We have some music to get. Us going from Bambara.

Speaker 4: Got a tattoo? Meaning this inside of the lower lip. She pulls it down. So she. Pulls out a window of watching. The sunset behind the figures of bending trees. Collection of wind chimes, clear wild throws and minor cheese.

Speaker 2: July 18th and the communio. Hello, Kevin. Hello. Glad you're here.

Speaker 5: Glad to be here, been out and about summer time.

Speaker 6: Yeah. Wow. In about, but it could be hotter here, 97 degrees is the temperature of the water in places that off South Florida, 97 degrees in mid-july, that's. It's almost too hot to get into your tub.

Speaker 5: The the weather stories and reports are very sobering. You know, I think Rome I was in Rome like two years ago. And it was so unbelievably hot. And they're talking 40 degrees Celsius and but now they I think today or tomorrow they're talking 42 or 40. Like the equivalent of 107 and it's just like holy Cow, a city in those temperatures is.

Speaker 6: Well, when it gets to 160 Fahrenheit, that's the cut off. That's when humans die 160. We're heading there.

Speaker 5: Yeah, I think they there are all these selfie type pictures of of tourists in Death Valley posing in front of the temperature sign. With fine looking faces, there must be a.

Speaker 3: I saw some of the Rangers do that. They're all. Smiling. Like what?

Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And with their hats in their full clothing, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah, the full uniform, they just get out of the vehicle for. About like 10 seconds.

Speaker 5: Exactly, exactly. They don't show you that these are not moving images, yeah.

Speaker 6: 19 consecutive days of temperatures 110 or more in Phoenix. That's getting unlivable.

Speaker 5: Texas, same thing and then floods. You know, the the other half Friday death. They'll drown, you know.

Speaker 6: Yeah, there have been stories about how there's no place anymore that isn't subject to these flash floods come out of nowhere. You can get a gigantic amount of rainfall in an hour. And you know another part of the warming that I never heard about. This was in the middle of last week. The underground temperatures, urban temperatures. Underneath the street. Way hotter than it used to be since the mid 20th century now. Making things unstable beneath all those structures, those tall buildings and so forth at risk. 100 people.

Speaker 5: Well then, of course the heavy rains are sociated with the warming, and so that there, you know, is in the US we're seeing it hand in hand.

Speaker 6: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Speaking of calls, I don't know. I don't think we have one, but it's 541-346-0645. OK. Was hoping it wasn't somebody saying we got no signal. We got no.

Speaker 5: Yeah. Technical problems. Nope.

Speaker 6: It wasn't that.

Speaker 3: Obviously someone's listening the. Somebody's listening.

Speaker 6: Good, good, somebody.

Speaker 5: Hello somebody.

Speaker 3: Hello somebody if they if they if they want to go on the air they are more than welcome to. Call back.

Speaker 6: Yeah, great. AP story Sunday, another thing that isn't. Brand new, even less so they. Story US sets record mass killing deaths 140. In the first half of 2023, you know, up to the end of June. 28 incidents of mass shootings. And unrelenting tools, the way they put it.

Speaker 5: The mass shootings and the association with holidays is also you see a dramatic increase in in that I have this is an old article and I think the holiday they were talking about was Juneteenth, or perhaps it was Memorial Day, but mass shootings in Chicago, Baltimore. Philadelphia, New York, San Francisco and Milwaukee in Chicago area alone, 60 people shot and the you know, we've just passed July 4th I don't have. A compilation or a summary of what the most recent reports are, but but you know, just like the floods and the hot weather, the mass shootings and holidays like the the two extremes, the polarization or whatever, the desire for connection and then the acute. Alienation that that pulling your assault rifle out and just wiping out hordes of people you know is in place of fireworks, apparently. But but correlation relationships, you know.

Speaker 6: Yeah, weekend gatherings. It's been a staple. Even more so lately, I think the, you know Saturday night get togethers, block parties. You know, gatherings at bars and so forth. You know, I ran into this whole theme of hopelessness or. Member lying flat that term. Applied to China, especially young people. Lying flat, meaning avoidance of work. Also avoidance of relationships. And at the present is 21% unemployment among the young that's in part. That's conscious, that's, you know, avoiding work.

Speaker 5: That's China.

Speaker 6: Yeah, this is a piece 2 days ago in in several places actually. And they were, they were tying it to a certain kind of hopelessness. And it I don't know, made me think of that hikikomori phenomenon in Japan. It was called that, where younger people just stay in their room for decades. Possibly.

Speaker 5: Right, right. Isolating. Yes. So wasn't it associated? The Japan phenomenon is associated with technology and video games. There was just life in that closed, confined model. Incarcerate yourself in unreality.

Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Meanwhile, there are more. Fuel spills and. A fairly popular one in the recent months, the good old. Train derailments. There was one yesterday in southeast Pennsylvania. In northern Alabama over the weekend between they don't know yet or they're not saying. Between 3000 and 5000, gallons of diesel fuel were released into the Tennessee River. When a tugboat sank. Northern Illinois or Alabama? Well, we're going to switch to green energy and it'll. Be cool and. From inside Climate News, you know one one of the things is relatively better hydropower. And you know in the north and the northwest in Canada is a fair amount of dams. You know, you get to get the cheaper electricity without burning fossil fuels, what turns out. Not so clean an energy source after all. It was a big story about the emissions that come from. Arise from the reservoirs. These giant reservoirs like Lake Mead and the other ones that are backed up behind the dam. Yeah, not very healthy, that's. It seems like it's it produces. Various kinds of emissions just you think? Well, it's just a big old man made Lake, you know, that's. It's not a problem, but. It is.

Speaker 5: The cost to. Creating our own lakes, no doubt that you, you know, related articles that that it's an aspect of this whole recycling and green energy stuff that I hadn't really thought about or been aware of, but. An article about a texts and making billions buying cast off wells from big companies and it's a similar phenomenon to in Pittsburgh in Pennsylvania, where the rotted out empty deserted towns that left. Mounds of slag, behind, then a whole new industry, comes in and recycles. That slag sifts through it, stirs it all up again, to to. To harvest what was left behind before so a new technology comes into claim even further and and and the whole, you know, the the whole self-serving recycling and green energy just refuses. It obscures the fact that the energy dependence. The energy addiction of the civilization we live in is insatiable. You know it's insatiable, and the planet doesn't. Does not really have the resources to even continue to try and satiate that monster. And it's really so much like an addiction to an opioid drug, you know, it's just like there's no end to the amount of energy. You required to live this dysfunctionally the single planet Earth doesn't have it. And so now we have to mine asteroids or, you know, explore space. But but you the dialogue or the the talk is supposed to be well, how can you know? We need to harvest wind, we need to. It's the sun we need to you know this, that alternative sources and and one that's very much thought about and discussed that you never see commentary on it is the nuclear fission fusion thing and the the the. Well, I never can get it straight. Dyslexia, but the one nuclear. Fusion is combining the atoms and blowing up. You know the mushroom cloud effect and fission is allegedly the recycle, the use the waste to produce energy by forcing them together, reuniting and and the. And a lot of research, a lot of money is going into that as a hope to always solve the energy crisis, which is. It's an addiction. You know. How how are you going to solve it? It's called cold. Or rewilding.

Speaker 6: Until it's all used up. That's of course the thesis of Joseph Tanner's. Wonderful book, the collapse of complex societies. It'll just keep going until the parasite consumes its host. End of game. You know that that'll be till they chase it to the end and and it's gone.

Speaker 5: And and that that's why the geologists are talking about, well, this is now we can look and we can identify this is the age of the Anthropocene.

Speaker 6: Seabed ocean floor mining. You know that's coming on strong and anyone can see that. What a disaster that is to marine life. I mean, just to further. Excrescence and the same old project the same old will to keep doing what shouldn't have been started in the first place. Yeah, I we were talking about when does it become more? Not only well, more publicly obvious. The the The the real questions involved here, you know and and there's there are beginnings of that, but. Nowhere near enough. At present.

Speaker 5: Nowhere near enough, but I I would put in, put in a couple. Call out to I was. I was surprised to be looking at it a couple days ago and and pleasantly surprised for the tone of when they put it online. Page one there was there. Topic of the week, which generally is quite lame. In my opinion was about anarchist mentors. Somebody needs to be invested in something larger than themselves to want to be a mentor or to have one. And the comment section was short, sweet and it didn't just go on and just go down to just pointless. Inane comments not relating to anything. It seemed pretty pretty well. Either people are exercising some. Controls or you know it just seemed more useful, and then a review they had reprinted there. Well they they reprinted that you had the your interview with the Uncivilized podcast. They put up an access to that and I thought that that was very positive podcast. And I thought they're disseminating it was was good to see was.

Speaker 6: Even listing my books, I was shocking. I've stopped sending the radio, the radio broadcast used to send it every week and they never put it up. Maybe I'll resume sending it to him in case. So you might want to share it.

Speaker 5: Well, and I think I think too is that that some of even that interview reflects of a new generation coming up with interest, you know, not just coming up or anticipated but present and on the scene where there's a revival you would you talked to. Well, you did the interview with the uncivilized folks and I think there was something else I saw. But but where you're seeing under 30s and never trust anyone over 30 right under 30 year olds actively. Being participants and engaging and promoting and contributing to. Discussion, dialogue, writing, disseminating ideas, criticizing in civilization, and understanding the the limit using methods that are not reliant on technology. High tech. You know, type things and and a lot more face to face engagement. And more primitive technologies being used to disseminate information and engage in dialogue.

Speaker 6: That was very heartening. And as you say, the you the age that four of us talking, three of whom were in ages ranging from 18 to 24, if you put them all together, they would. Be close to my age, you know, and add them all up. But yeah, wonderful. Very, very sharp younger folks.

Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And just the way they conducted the interview, I think was part of what? Was a breath of fresh air. You know, it didn't seem all stuck in old debates and old dialogue, but it it seemed, really, I thought, quite fresh. They also did an article. Crash goes the Alpha Belt alphabet time for a new one by Ian Bloomberg Inch, who I don't know if I'm pronouncing that right, but it was. It was a reprint of 1/5 state review of the the. Breaking the alphabet book by Sasha Angel and that whole promoting discussion of of the written word and the limitations and and in a light hearted, refreshing way that was really good to see and and I I thought one of the lines thought that.

Speaker 6: It's great to see.

Speaker 5: I guess it would. I guess it's give credit to Ian or something, but the no the author, the reviewer advocates casual experimentation with this new alphabet because it's I think it's pretty pretty easy. It's like 100 letters on it that are visual. But, but the idea was quote paint situation as slogans in the bathroom of your local McDonald's or coded messages pointing the way to Croatoan, Crow, Crow. I never pronounce it never that. But anyway. But. But just as an exercise.

Speaker 6: I don't know how to pronounce it.

Speaker 5: Whatever. It's like a lighthearted, appealing Hooray, you know.

Speaker 6: I think it's somewhat connected anyway, just today via a friend of mine in Canada. Thank you. Jonathan, interview with I won't go on and on about this, but Daniel Everett, he wrote the book called Don't Sleep. There are snakes, incredible story. And this guy. He's not a young person, but a great, refreshing, modest take on all this. He to make a Long story short, was a. A Christian missionary who from a kind of unhappy home became a Christian, became a missionary, in fact, went to the Amazon to translate a certain people. 'S uh. Language into. In other words, to usher in the gospel, you know to convert, convert them. And what he discovered was it just blew his mind. He discovered this is a language that doesn't have any tenses really or doesn't have recursion. That's the key thing. Recursion. Meaning you've got two different conditions in the same sentence. Mary says Jane is home. Well, it's two different things, but and Chomsky said, every single language has that. That's a fundamental of language. Language, of course, is universal and innate. You know, the whole dogma of of Chomsky and thing which made him rich and famous starting in the 50s anyway. And he says they don't have recursion. They don't have it. And and all these people just said no, that's wrong. And they sent people to to talk to these people. They agreed to, you know. Have them ask some questions and go through all this stuff and tape all this. And and they could not. They there's no recursions in their language and yet they have a fantastic community without technology. And this guy just he just dropped the Christianity part. His wife is still a missionary. But anyway he it just changed his entire thinking. It just. The through the Chomsky dog Mount of the water and it's still going on. And he actually talked about that. He said, oh, I've talked with Trump's get length because he wouldn't give up. He he just couldn't believe it. And and finally, Chomsky apparently said, well, I wasn't really saying that there's that there's always recursion. And that's that's exactly what he said. Decades, you know. Anyway, he was very refreshing. It's. I don't. I can't remember the name of it. I didn't bring any notes about it, but I think you could find it easily. Daniel Everett interview. It's very new. In fact, at MIT, there was a whole. There was a whole thing about his thinking about Everett thinking. And he, he said, well, nobody wants to be the center of a controversy. Very modest guy, you know. And I'm thinking, oh, I know a lot of. People who would love to be the center of a controversy anyway, it's it's very worth and I I think I would disagree with parts of his whole approach, but it's it's wonderful to. Check out his thinking.

Speaker 5: And he's a former Christian missionary. That was, that was one of the quotes I'd written down. I wanted to give once again on Ian's review quote. All religion comes from different forms of tribal mysticism and all mysticism, mysticism.

Speaker 0: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5: Is a critique of language and linear logic and that that is, I would say. Amongst the newer voices that I find coming up, in all, there's an interest and there's an understanding of a role for mysticism and spirituality, which is. Been absolutely absent and looked down upon by the demand for a secular society that that's nation state based civilization and so so you know I like Ian's wording and you gave me an opportunity to look back at my notes and and.

Speaker 6: There you go.

Speaker 5: Bring that up again. So thank you.

Speaker 3: Got Artemis on the phone.

Speaker 6: Artemis speak of the devil.

Speaker 8: Hey, how you doing?

Speaker 6: Hello there. Good, good. How are you?

Speaker 8: Good. I'm I'm doing well. I just wanted to throw some quick things out first. Well, it was great having you on. We all really enjoyed it and the oldest of us is 25 in fact. So we are indeed very young. The second thing is I was the the one that uploaded it to anarchist news and had the description with your books in it. I'm not trying to drag intercourse. Is there anything but I? I uploaded it, I mean it's still like they have to accept it, which I think is nice because sometimes I even upload your or I submit your energy radio segment and they don't always accept them. So it was nice to know that they accepted the the. Interview on the site.

Speaker 6: Really. Yeah. Maybe there's been a cool over there or something, I don't know. But it was nice to see.

Speaker 8: Yeah, I thought it was great. And and also your episode on her channel is the best performing episode since 2021 for our podcast. So I thought that was really great, a lot of. People have enjoyed it.

Speaker 6: Oh wow, very nice.

Speaker 8: Yeah. Yeah and.

Speaker 6: Even if it gets more hits or something.

Speaker 8: Within the first depth, the most amount of views in 24 hours since 2021, yeah.

Speaker 5: Huh. How about how about on the likes ratio?

Speaker 8: Yeah, which is pretty great.

Speaker 4: That one that.

Speaker 8: One I don't know, because most people don't really quote UN quote like the video. But what's really funny? I'm not sure if you checked the comments, but we had someone who identifies as a right wing and a primitivist means like oh, I get it. Like we we can't all come together about this. Fine. I'm removing my subscription. I'm. Like wow. OK, bye. No one cares.

Speaker 7: So much, huh?

Speaker 8: Not an airport. You don't need to announce your departure.

Speaker 6: Right. Don't call us.

Speaker 8: Right. And I don't know how explicit I was like, I don't think you really we're not leftists because it's like, why is it just a bunch of leftists laughing? I was. Like, did you listen to the podcast?

Speaker 6: Yeah, that same old dumb thing. It's it's kind of amazing how that still sticks and and, you know, I don't want to return to trashing anarchist news. Well, maybe I do. But no, that that's just a perennial thing. Well, if you, if you have this critique of the left, you must be on the right. Ohh boy, that's just so frustrating. What? What are you talking about?

Speaker 8: And what's even great is that those on the right are, like you could cheat me. You must be on the.

Speaker 6: Left like. No. Yeah, no, same error really.

Speaker 8: Right. And there's also the follow up you're talking about Daniel Everett. If this is the one you sent me earlier, it's called language from the Amazonian jungle to ChatGPT is the name of it. It was uploaded 4 days ago by someone named Phidias podcast on YouTube.

Speaker 6: Thank you. Thank you. Great name for it.

Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, I listen, I. I listened to it in the car with the coworker on the way back and. She was so interested in it. I thought it was funny I. Was trying to get her onto that a little.

Speaker 6: Yeah, it it was good. Because I think part part of the appeal, the interviewer. I'm. I'm not putting down the interviewer, but he was having a hard time keeping up. So in other words, it was it was fairly obvious questions or simple questions. So you didn't get all entangled and and confused about. Where he was going or where he was coming from, he because he has very basic questions and I thought that was very helpful.

Speaker 8: Yeah, I thought it was. I thought it was great. I mean, I think he was really humbled, though. It's almost funny because it's like, yeah, MIT had a whatever. In my honor, I'm like, wow.

Speaker 6: OK, sounds pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah, kind of modest. Type not. He didn't really. And you know initially when that book don't sleep, there are snakes. I mean, he reaped the wheel. Wind whirlwind. Excuse me. The you know, you were always hearing about the Chomsky mafia. Just crushed the guy. I just hated him and did everything they could to. You know, to attack the guy and everything and so. But guess who sort of won the day, I would say.

Speaker 8: Right. Right, right. I mean, no, so you know it's every time I hear about Chomsky and his, for lack of better word, his cult, it's just. I'm never surprised at this point. If you think basically that fairy dust came from space and gave us a language organ, I'm not going to listen to a lot. Of what you say very seriously.

Speaker 2: Yeah, somebody who has zero interest.

Speaker 6: The culture and along comes somebody like Everett who? This not only a linguist, but an anthropologist and also a philosopher, I would say.

Speaker 0: Right.

Speaker 6: And you know, like the culture has nothing to do with language. You can found an entire theory or basic theory of language with no contact of, of cultural input. You know that really on the face of it that just seems crazy.

Speaker 8: Right. Right. Yeah. And, you know, even Everett mentions, you know, he's. I'm not saying that these people don't understand recursion because they have recursion within their stories. It's not present in their language. You know, it's present in the stories they tell. But of course, Chomsky won't acknowledge that cause he doesn't care about stories. He only cares about the grammar.

Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, just as structural things. According to his view.

Speaker 8: Right. And so I mean, I mean it's funny because Everett only talks about Chomsky for less than 10 minutes, but precedes to totally deconstruct the entirety of Chomsky's idea with, you know, in a very like you said. Humble and you can. See, there's a little bit of an attitude going on, right, but it's still very light. Passionate and I was professional and.

Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 8: I like that a lot.

Speaker 6: You know, it's so funny talking about the left. You know that that thing that keeps coming up the. What's wrong with the left? You know the post left isn't enough, you need to be further away from that critically and well, here's Mr. Leftist Chomsky with it with, I would say, a fully reactionary theory. I mean you you could imagine it easily coming from some right wing person. Not not a professional leftist.

Speaker 8: Right. I mean again, this this total essentialism, right, that you're just you're saying, oh, we are definitely this way, you know, and it's it's human exceptionalism too, because, you know, every even points out. I don't think that it's impossible for animal, other animals to have languages that we haven't found it. But Chomsky is very explicit no. Only humans can have language. Right. You know, it just pushes this, this human essentialism and exceptionalism. In such a funny way. But of course, as we said, you know, my advice for people to listen, then I'll hop off is, you know, every very much seems to be trying to find language where there might not be even saying erectus headed because, I mean, it's the it's the whole thing that you've been talking about for for decades. Is that to be intelligent? Means to have symbols and to have symbols. Means you're intelligent and because home erectus without any debate was intelligent, therefore he must have had symbols and therefore must have had language.

Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's a good way to put it. In other words, he had his, I would say is a pretty loose definition of symbols and symbols. To come up with that. But anyway, it's at at the very least it's certainly worth thinking about, and he has got a lot to offer.

Speaker 8: Yeah. Yeah, but yeah. This has been great you all. Have a great night, alright?

Speaker 6: Thanks for calling, friend.

Speaker 3: Of course.

Speaker 6: Well, let's see. Maybe we can squeeze in. A music break. That is some ice mountain. The album is called Upper Lower, and it certainly includes. A certain editor of Oak magazine. Wonderful stuff. Where were we? That was a good call from Artemis. You know, we I'm sure we'll. What time we have, let's get into the technology question. I just wanted to throw out this is somewhat I think this is somewhat typical. I got the latest Stanford magazine. That was kind of a big article called me myself and I. Artificial intelligence has entered a new era. Here's how we stay human. I mean that subtitle already tells you it's. Kind of goofy, maybe, but it's it's about, you know, all the chat bot stuff and. But it just much much like a lot of this commentary and it's another thing that's sad because it's so threadbare and off base. The whole point about it's just a tool, it's a helpful tool. It can be great. You know it can do all these things. So let's just remember it's just a tool. And on and on. Anyway, the piece toward the end. Article says. We can see AI as occupying a place in the process, not unlike that of the humble paintbrush. There's a simple tool you have a. Paint brush and then it goes on to the kind of drizzly, fading out kind of platitudes and so forth. It's a question of how do we want to live with AI as part of our lives? Well, obviously, it assumes that we want it to be part of our lives. Will be part of our lives. There's no question about that.

Speaker 5: Or how much is it already a part of our lock that's.

Speaker 6: Right.

Speaker 5: You know.

Speaker 6: Right, right it. Up to us how we use it and so forth and the last in the last paragraph, our future with AI and all the myriad ways that already is changing and will change humanity is up to us. Yeah, it's just up to. Us, you know. It's just a tool.

Speaker 5: That's right. Call in will determine the future of. ChatGPT by. Call it in. It's up to us, you know.

Speaker 6: This could have a happy face philosophy, right? It's just, you know.

Speaker 5: That's that's right. Sounds good. Why not? It it could be up to us. It's just a. Tool, you know.

Speaker 6: It's, yeah, upbeat. Let's not, you know, get tripped out on this stuff. I mean, after all, it isn't taking over humanity or. Maybe replacing it I mean?

Speaker 5: Do you like paintbrushes? You don't object to them, do you?

Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, if you if you. Case closed. Yeah, you.

Speaker 5: There you go. Well, I wanted to get back, not language, but organizational ability and give a hats off to the orca whales we used to every once in a while, hit on their theme, nature strikes back and so watch out for the bison in Yellowstone. Or beware if you're around. Bison showed little respect like you should have all along. And then the old orcas. Word came in from Spain. The packs of killer whales were now routinely attacking sailboats, cabin cruisers and yachts, and in several cases sinking them. Killer whales, in fact, are not whales, but dolphins. So you know, watch out for Flipper. Popular theory on how this got started was a female orchid nicknamed by marine biologists. White Gladys once had a bad experience with yachtsman and has now taught her offspring how to disable the. And in fact, other orcas off the Spanish coast coast that are not even related to her may have gotten into the act, and they're reducing yachts to splinters. Then they had some attack in off the coast of Scotland, and apparently someone told me that they. There are videos online of old Gladys teaching other whales, her offspring, how to attack the. The boats how to disable the yachts? So is it the one that one of the lines? But what if other species began mimicking the whales and hitting closer to home? So yeah, watch out for the birds, right?

Speaker 6: Hmm. Amazing. Can't have that. Yeah. Nice to hear about that. You know this whole stuff about the onrushing magnitude and immersive quality of the technology there was last Friday. There was a regular column. David Brooks here was kind of the centrist op-ed guy at the New York Times. Wrote a piece called human beings are soon to be eclipsed. Is a little late getting down to it, talking about largely talking about Douglas Hoffstetter, he wrote. Is it very popular writer? Few years back he wrote Godel, Escher, Bach, which is about the glories of technology and AI, not a threat, you know. It's a. He's one of several people that made a pretty penny actually peddling these books that were pretty well received. You know, that was the main. Trend or? Tied. But now he's horrified. Yeah, he's he's just uh. Not he's changed his tune completely. And and he wonders what is being human even mean now and. So that's nice to see because he was a pretty big name a while ago.

Speaker 5: I'm not clear what was he horrified at.

Speaker 6: AI chatbot stuff all of this onrushing stuff, you know.

Speaker 5: Oh, OK.

Speaker 6: And that relates to the Brooks title of the piece. We're being eclipsed by it. This ain't just a tool. This is not quite that, you know, and. And then there was a piece. And I was lucky to get this is this is from the Houston Chronicle last Friday. Jimmy and Sweden sent me this actually piece called Stop the Carousel Carousel. I want to get off by David Rafferty. Yeah, that's the title. Tells you everything. Technology has made life worse. It just has it just to look. At it and. But sadly it has a it has a dumb ending which is more or less. Oh well, it won't go away so. But but the thrust of it is is is. Along with all of the other usual stuff, there was a full page ad in last Wednesday's New York Times from an outfit called Upwork. How AI improves work. It is guess what? A wonderful tool. Meanwhile, people are getting every generation is less skilled, knows how to do less, you know, has less. Capacities being de skilled all the time as we speak. Good at. You know, finding out what you what the screen tells you, but that's about all you'll know how to do. But no, Upwork sees it quite differently.

Speaker 5: That lands like today's Today's Wall Street Journal front page. Activists move quickly to shape AI guide. Guardrails basically, you know there is, I think there's general. Awareness that this is not going to serve us well, there's general concern, lack of knowledge, lack of investigation into how far it's part of our lives already. What are the multiple applications? Et cetera, et cetera. But but the orientation of what to do tends to be have a meeting and set up standards or something. And I think it in guard rails around generative AI tools such as ChatGPT. Among those at the table are many veterans of the continuing battle to make social media safer and, and I think that that that's the discouraging thing is even at this stage of discussion of the problem that's already here and present in our lives. And making David Brooks tear out his hair about, you know, what does it even mean to be human? I mean, that's pretty significant. Something to respond to, and if the level of what's the responses that sit around it and chat about guardrails that you know, oh, we let Facebook, we let we let the social media get out of control now and we got to make sure this doesn't happen. With AI and it's like, whoa, what does it even mean to say we let the social media get out of control? We didn't protect him. We need to do something. Now. What does it mean? How many have lost a loved one to suicide for you? To the the the angst of living alone, being despondent. You know, this kind of stuff or or bullying, you know, bullying online or or any number of things. So so. Listen to the whales through the dolphins. You know, I I think I think that that, that it's important to acknowledge, it's fine to whine about and and recognize the problem. But then the question is what do you do about it? And just coincident with this on the same you know same page paper, same other side of the paper is. The all the cables hanging all over every city, every rural area and that of lead lead cables left by the telecom companies by the the mob bells, the, the, the lead that's being used in the production and the transmission. Of the the cod, I'm struggling for the words here. The Heat's getting to me. But but significant lad, you're seeing more and more about. Lead poisoning in the population and neurological problems in this kind of stuff, because part and process the destruction is going on now you know. And and to be talking years later about social media and how do I keep my 13 year old from. Living on a phone. You know, too little, too late.

Speaker 6: Well, there is a certain current of resistance and part of the problem is you can't get an explanation, or at least I haven't seen it anywhere, how this stuff works. They chat bots or algorithms. I'm not sure. There's no way to explain it, but it's it seems like a very elusive kind of thing. It was the thing in the Sunday New York Times. Piece called not for machines to harvest data. Revolts break out against AI, and what this is referring to is the implication of of people in general. You're feeding it. You're feeding the data. It requires the data to form the algorithmic decisions you know about your. What you like to buy and so forth and and as well. The machine learning so-called of chat bots. You know, how does it come out? With these answers. Which may or may not be fully accurate, but that's another.

Speaker 5: Question, but as you the very use of the technology makes that makes the monster you're feeding the data in. By utilizing the technology.

Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah. Right, right. You're on line all the time. That's you're just filling in the blanks for.

Speaker 5: The machine and everything you quantify it all, break it down, and then you're out of control.

Speaker 6: Yeah, you've helped them put the electronic noose around your.

Speaker 5: Throats and that was that was another interesting I don't know where I saw it, but the whole going back to the fusion nuclear fusion nuclear fission that one of the problems that if you if you start to like really think about and understand. You know what's the big threat from AI like? And they say, well it, you know, it's going to be like how in in space odysseys, you know, the computers can take over, they can do harm to humans and that the the. The the energy needs to feed the systems of the technology. Technological systems we have created already could allow for. A A A you know kind of survival mechanism of the computer that you're able to. Implement advance a nuclear fission to to get to the energy needs that you require to operate the system and who's operating the system is the. If the system is at the level of. As a program like software loaded program to you had, there's certain requirements for energy needs and so and there's certain. Databases that show where that energy can be acquired. Where's the nuclear this that the other thing, I mean you can see how how there can be a threat to the existence, to human needs as opposed to the needs of the machine.

Speaker 6: Yeah, we've got to have. More voices, more perspectives. I I, you know, just I found this interesting in terms of. Part of the combat against all this. Review of the new black metal. Offering from Seagal, Gal Sawa, it's a new. Indigenous musician delivers intense tunes, is the name of the review. New album, supposedly like wolves in the Throne room group. I love the title wolves in the throne room. This is. Honors the land. It's a complete different orientation than all this high tech stuff, which devours the land and. Despoils it obviously so. I'd never heard of this. Musician. But. And I probably mangled the pronunciation of the name, but I think I'll look for that. Now somebody asked me, this is a total trivial deal, but somebody asked me it sort of started to forget all about it. The FBI saga where. Is my have foya. Report, you know, and just became all this goofy sort of thing. Well, I I have a small file and the last. The letter I got from the FBI was early March. We're almost in early August already, but. More flim flamming around more double talk, you know well ohh. You should be hearing from. Well no they they've made it pretty clear they have no intention of handing it over which which is kind of dumb in the 1st place it'll if I ever do get it it'll be so redacted. It'll be it'll be stupid even. Bother it, but I I had in mind that would be in the archive just for whatever it's worth. It just probably nothing.

Speaker 5: So they used to do a thing where it was they'd say you have to contact each local FBI office and Police Department and state police and every single enforcement authority and that that they could charge you for every page that they reprinted. And, you know, I mean. Is this catch 22 procedure yet? Anything.

Speaker 6: Went away. Yeah. Waste your time and money. If for nothing. You know it's. Anyway, they're still at it, and a whole bunch of resistance briefs, but I think I'll save that for next week because we're running down on time. You know something that's kind of basic. I'll just throw this in toward the end here.

Speaker 2: The whole.

Speaker 6: The whole difference in outlooks, the basic. The basic difference. It one way this is one way to look at 2 theories of Consciousness square off. This is like the latest round of this kind of stuff and the basic question. This piece raises. Is there a certain neural connection which correlates to consciousness? I mean that would answer the question. How did we become conscious and self-conscious? Basically, it seems to me anyway, a certain activity of neurons, you know, just it's not. This is just a mechanical way of. Having the same philosophy, but it reminds me of what Marvin Minsky said years ago. The brain is a three pound computer made of meat. How's that for ugly and and stupid on top of it. So they're still chasing this and this. This piece has to do with a bet.

Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 6: Some neuroscientist had. Or maybe it was neurosciences and philosophy, I don't know. But 25 years they were going to bed a case of wine. Or something. We'll know the answer. Is there a neural correlate? Is there some?

Speaker 5: Said consciousness. That's right.

Speaker 6: You know the machine at is. You can figure it out in the brains wiring. That's a crude way to put it. That's how you get consciousness. Or the other point of view is. That's baloney. That's nothing to do with consciousness. You don't have any clue. And I think that's the better answer. These people called the new mysterians. Oh, I can't think of the Scottish doctor think he came up with that name. Very lovely idea. It's a mystery. Except that you don't be tinkering around like you're playing with. And you know, machinery or something. Anyway, the guy lost the bet 25 years on. Did not find this neural switch or whatever it is supposed to be. The unlocks the What delivers us as conscious beings.

Speaker 5: But no doubt, the scientific institutions are still looking for it. That's right. That's what all the imaging and electromagnetic and electron micros. All these studies before.

Speaker 6: Ohh yeah, they're still on. Doesn't prove we. Won't find it, you know, even though it's nonsense. So glad you came down, Kath. And it's. It's always wonderful and I think if it's OK, we we can sort this out later, but when Jessica? Calls on the 15th if. If you want to be in on that, that would be wonderful. When she's going to talk about the new book, why we need to be wild. One woman's quest for ancient human answers to 21st century problems.

Speaker 5: And she'll be Speaking of power right about her book.

Speaker 6: Yeah, right. Right. Not too early to say that put it on the calendar, August 22nd, that's Tuesday at 7:00 on the 22nd of August you'll be. Presenting the book, then. It's just brand new.

Speaker 5: Hot off the press, yeah.

Speaker 6: All right, we got some Randy Newman to go out on here. In our final minute or two, take care. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 7: Self new network. If the children of Israel. Supposed to multiply? Why must dinner of the children that. So we ask the Lord. And the Lord said. Man means nothing. He means less to me. Lawless cactus flower. Homeless Yucca tree. Chases round this desert. He thinks that's where I'll be. That's why I love mankind. I recall as the horror. The fineness of thee. From the squalor in the field in the misery. How we live?



Earth sizzles, floods. Records fall as extremes mount. Climate crisis changing the planet's rotation. Learning sinks as tech surges. Scary health news. Domestication boosts disease risks. Hunting very common among hunter-gatherer women. Asteroid City by Wes Anderson. AI redefining the social.. "A Trilliion Little Pieces," E. Kolbert on plastics as definition of modernity. Jamie, with the Hadza in e. Africa. The Contemptuous #5. Two calls.

Speaker 1: Let me.

Speaker 0: This is Richard from Rammstein and you're listening to. KW, VA I, gene.

Speaker 2: The views expressed on this program are not necessarily the views of kwva radio or the associated students of the University of Oregon. Anarchy Radio is an editorial collage providing analysis and opinions of John Zerzan and the community.

Speaker 3: At large, that's right. You're listening to kW VAUG. On this Tuesday night with John, it's 541-346-0645 and we have music from Bustin Jaber.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's local Eugene band Bustin Jeep. July 11th Anarchy Radio calls back. I'm back having blown off last week the 4th of July. I blame that on Carl. Calling today. Jamie spent some time with the Hadza hunter Gatherer. People in East Africa. An amazing opportunity. I think he's going to be coming a little later. Well, I'm sure you haven't missed the news about the heat. The several days, hottest days globally ever hottest in 125,000 years, for example. That just. Records every day. With the as of the middle of last week, 20 million acres burned in Canada. And big big heat domes in the South, the southwest and the. We're going to get it this weekend. California is going to be super hot, maybe 130 in Death Valley 130. Anyway, BBC story the other day hottest June in UK. Another record killing fish threatens insects and plants. Unprecedented. That's the general story. And also the flooding much in the news, worst flooding in 1000 years. New York State and Vermont and. Yesterday, beaches in Massachusetts, new New Hampshire and Rhode Island closed. Due to high levels of bacterial toxicity. Due to the flooding due to the runoff. And there's going to be more books one. New one. It's not keeping up, I'm sure, because it's already. It's already out. It's been written and published Hot house Earth by Bill McGuire. Apparently, an urgent, sobering look. At all this and. One other disturbing thing. That it turns out that climate crisis is changing the earth spin. The rotation of the planet is altered. By polarized melting and also the emptying of underground water sources. Such that. Yeah, it's, it's. Spinning around, wobbling in a different way. Not too bright. Well, I've got this is going to have some local. Maybe more of a local thrust than usual for anarchy radio. But and some of that has to do with. Some action. I want to throw this out. If I'm just asking Carl whether he's seen asteroid city, the new Wes Anderson. Very freaky, just very visually crazy and. You know, about halfway through this is my take. Anyway, it struck me that if Samuel Beckett wrote a sort of comedy. This would be it comedy in a strange way. It's only about a play and you sort of forget that it's it's it's about a play taking place. Any waves? It's unusual and maybe stimulating, not real. Sure, I was reminded why Adorno. Was very big on Beckett and very big on his plays. For, maybe for the reason along the lines of this movie, at least in part. Nothing gets resolved and Adorno was pleased by that. In fact, he was going to dedicate his last book. To Beckett. But he died before he finished the the book on Aesthetics. And that was the key thing. To him in terms of. Beckett, you don't get the false resolution. And that's because it's not on offer. It's not. It's false if you. If you do fall back on any basic resolution, you're lying about what's going on. So anyway, I guess that's the appeal of Beckett, if you. If you see it that way, I guess. And another movie, probably a a real dud of sort of. Action movie Tom Cruise kind of a cheesy thing it sounds like. But they're saying that as a self aware AI panic vehicle. Yeah, that's the scary part. It delivers on that level anyway, even though it's. Kind of dumb I guess. The Verge is talking about that. Yeah, lots of new scenes, new movies, new. New projects, there's there is some energy. Coming out, I'm not talking about Hollywood movies here, but. Things are going on, I'd say. Oh man, one thing that doesn't go away only gets worse. Homelessness, for example, LA Times. Last week, talking about LA County and the City of Los Angeles. Up dramatically, it's endless stories about homeless in LA, but. About a 10% annual rise. That means every year. Wow, that's. Pretty crazy. This is just today's news. Front page story in the New York Times, pandemic era learning gaps are not closing. Widening gaps in terms of reading and math. Despite a huge amount of government spending. Let's pull out of the pandemic. Let's get over that and get back to learning. Well, among other things, the pandemic was a big surge in dependence on technology. You've got to zoom. You can't go to school. For a while there, and that was. It wasn't just, well, anyway, that's two things that come together kind of, obviously. The tech thing gets more and more. A deep dive and. So do skills taking a dive, it's. The important thing. Well, I'm just going to just for the moment, just run through some pathologies that. Are also very disturbing. This is on the 4th of July, a story about. First, local malaria cases since 2003. Yeah, that was a week ago. Florida and Texas, and they were pinning that on the climate crisis. Well, it's been spreading, yeah. And syphilis in this country has been on the rise since 2000. Now it's called an epidemic 100 and six 176,713 cases in 2021. Up 75% since 2017. And another. Unhealthy, bizarre thing. Kidney stones or on the rise among children? Kids getting kidney stones, especially girls for some reason. And it's it's all about Ultra processed food sedentism. Including these energy drinks. Yeah, big story about that on Sunday. Yeah, we're seeing stuff that we haven't seen before. There's an odd one from the 4th of July. Mysterious brain disease causing hallucinations is spreading in Canada, paralyzing young children. Maybe it's like a Wes Anderson movie. You just get these crazy things that really couldn't be true. Except they are, except they're factual. All part of the general. Collapse of things that where one can counted on some stability. That's that's going away. Here's one from almost two weeks ago, the Bulletin of Atomic Scientists. Story called the environmental hazards of farming fish in a warming world. There's been quite a bit on this topic. How toxic that is and what a danger it is. To wild fish in the vicinity. Talking in particular about this going on in southern Chile and Patagonia and Chile. Aquaculture. It's called very, very polluting. Combining with algae blooms, toxic algae blooms. They they can kill the the pinned fish, the farmed fish. And the whole thing is a kind of toxic ensemble. Story today. This is just a general thing about domestication, because there's so many forms of. Animal domestication. Story called Risk scene in Animal Industries. You can just instantly think of all the different ways of. You know chickens and pigs and everything else. And what they're pointing at is zoonotic diseases. With domestication, in other words, those that. Spread from non human animals to human animals. That's been kind of lurking for a while. Maybe more than lurking. There's an interesting piece, little anthropology. Thing here from the journal PLOS One. Kind of the oddest. Name of a journal? Possibly. Anyway. June 28th piece by several authors. Called the myth of man, the Hunter women's contribution to the hunt across ethnographic contexts. This covers about 100 years. In 63 different hunter gatherer societies. I mean this this whole the title itself. That pointed to something that blew up actually in the 60s. The man, the Hunter Conference. In 1966, I think it was in Chicago and academic conference. Which really did start to just blow away the. Those minory. Divisions those gender divisions anyway, this one. Kind of deepens that it's a thorough look at this. Yeah. And anyway the here's the bottom line in 63 different hunter gatherer societies, 80% of which. Women did at least some hunting. 80% of them. So man, the Hunter woman, the gatherer. Not confined to those roles. All that much. And then you you got to get into, I guess you want to know how much is at least some hunting? It's arranged from from a lot of hunting to not very much hunting, but anyway 80%. Of those. I think we then we have the call from Jamie, the Hansa. That's it's one of the major. Extant hunter gatherer. Groups left. On the planet and uh. About 20% of Hadza are are still 100 gatherers. And they're kind of. Besieged or beleaguered? Or. In some ways compromised by the surrounding pastoral and farming. Hadza and other, of course, other groups like the Masai, we're just straight up domesticates and very hostile to Hansa. Well, here's another eco news thing. Saint Paul Island is an indigenous village of Saint Paul. Well, that is the village is called Saint Paul, 800 miles West of Anchorage in the Bering Sea. In the past few years, 10 billion snow crabs have vanished from the Bering Sea. These crabs are, or were the mainstay of Saint Paul. Now its residents may have to. Go elsewhere. Yeah, that's that's a very clear. An obvious result. All part of it and another bit on Antarctic sea ice. How fast? Its melting? February marked a record low level. For sea ice that came out July 6th. I just can't wait to get into some more of this AI stuff. All this chat bot stuff and so forth. Now, there's not only AI, but a GI, which the another step. And of course there are chat bots in schools and businesses already a lot, but now in hospitals and homes. It can tell you which gift to buy. A family member for. You couldn't figure that out before chat bots. Is the piece. Sunday the 2nd in the New York Times by Evgeny Morozov. The risk from AI isn't just existential. You know the the sort of takeover from all this. Not only does it shrink intelligence reference those test scores, but society is being redefined. It doesn't take a big leap to to see that already. You know these things do. They're sort of conjoined, for example. Talking about social gatherings or what is social. What is left of it? Can't avoid talking about these past weekends, especially the mass shootings. There were 15 mass shootings. I once said 17 mass shootings over the 4th of July weekend. The long holiday weekend. And just this past weekend, this is especially Saturday night. Amarillo, TX, Chicago, Cleveland, et cetera. These things are just. I mean, I got a long list, but I I wouldn't have. I would have to go back to the weekend before, namely the 4th of July weekend. That's. Terrible numbers and terrible locations. There were just. I'll just throw out one from a Saturday night. Just before the 4th, 30 were shot at a Baltimore Block party. There's your social gathering and all these. They're mostly block parties. Other celebrations also bar scenes. You know, that sort of thing, but. Yeah, that's the. I mean, that really underlines that and. That connection is pretty vivid and pretty, uh. There's a piece in the Atlantic recently, just about four days ago, I think. Even Bogost wrote what did people do before smartphones? No one can remember. That's the subtitle. Yeah, the smartphone age. Constant online life. In quotes everywhere. Yeah, it's the and the point about I forget who said this, but. Technology kind of embraces history and and historical sense kind of goes away because really. It becomes a story of technology and technology present especially. And and what used to pass for history. Very much diminished, very much diminished. That's. That's something you want to think about. If if that's true, insofar as that's true, it's a. It's a fairly profound thing. Among all the basic things that are being lost. That's that hasn't. Happened overnight. I mean, I don't think that's just, you know, smartphones but. I don't know at least a couple of decades, I would say. And let's see yesterday and the verge. There was a piece called. This environment and you know the verge, they're just pushing every kind of E gadget, every kind of electronic thing you can think of. This environmentally conscious smartphone is finally coming to the US. The European model. The Marina Marino, Fairphone 4. Marino, Fairphone 4, never heard of that. And I don't know much about it. Definitely don't. But here's the first line. Refers to the fact that this Fairphone. Is quote built using ethically sourced materials? How do you get a smartphone that is any in any way, ethically sourced? What the hell does that mean? And they don't go on to say when, when in fact, is are you getting at? Why do you define that? Is is it somehow? A little less horrible, a little, somehow more green or some things. What is your definition of any of that stuff, you know, ethically sourced material? I guess that means you don't have to have any mining for example. For the for the components, for the metal or or any toxic industry for the plastic involved. Or yeah, it's it's ethically sourced so I don't know, I don't. I have no idea what's made of in in that case, if that's. Has any meaning whatsoever? Because it doesn't have any meaning whatsoever. It's just a throw away. You know, ad pitch. I'm sure what? It probably comes down to, I suppose is. Relatively speaking. And again, you gotta get into the weeds. What the hell are you talking about? All right. It's when we're while we await Jamie, it's. 541-346-0645. Go ahead and call about any other thing. Anything you've been wondering about in the past two weeks since since anarchy Orania. Or even before him. There's a full page New York Times ad, January or no. Excuse me, June 30th. LG Guggenheim celebrates intersection of art and AI. I'm forgetting what LG Guggenheim. Is but anyway. Stephanie dinkins. One this sort of a competition is celebratory thing about this intersection of art and AI. About the timely negotiation of AI technology. Tech as key element of the work of these people at the Guggenheim. These techno artists. Somebody's coming on, I think here.

Speaker 3: We have a call.

Speaker 2: Hello there.

Speaker 4: Hey, John, it's Don of graffiti.

Speaker 2: OK, Don, how are you doing?

Speaker 4: I'm doing alright. Can I take a couple of minutes while you? Wait for Jamie.

Speaker 2: Sure thing.

Speaker 4: I'm totally different topic, but Oregon Country fair, you know, happened and. I've never actually never been, but I understand it kind of similar to Burning Man in a. OK. And I've been thinking about that a bit. How it's it's sort of a temporary intentional community, which sort of makes everybody one big tribe and. They handle their own like law enforcement, right? I think both of them do more or less.

Speaker 3: They didn't used.

Speaker 2: To have law enforcement at all, but lots of things have. Changed over the years, I guess.

Speaker 4: I mean that. But it's it's. Handled by them, right? It's not. It's not like cops are in there. Like I don't know about Oregon country, Sir, but a Burning Man that. The government cops really keep a low profile of it. I mean, I haven't been in, in years. I went twice 10 years ago or something, but I really like.

Speaker 3: They say I think all the people that get DUI's coming out of the fair might take issue with that, but yeah, there's there's no like, you know, cops like wandering around inside that have cop uniforms on.

Speaker 4: Yeah, right. Right. And I think they have their own sort of enforcement people that.

Speaker 3: They have their security. Yeah, I I mean I I don't. Know I I don't know if I would call it enforcement, but they have. They have.

Speaker 4: Bouncers sense of accountability to the group rather than. The you know the the greater society at large sort of thing. And the other thing is I really had burning and I really liked it. It was a. Gift economy not. Even barter. Everybody just gives what they've got away and. You're just wondering how. How we could move toward that in society? As a whole.

Speaker 2: I don't know. That's a big one. That's. A big one, yeah, in.

Speaker 3: I don't think the fair would be a place to look for that. It is a, you know, a craft fair by it, like its definition. So I mean, the monetary component of it is, is absolutely huge. It's all about money. Money, money, money.

Speaker 4: Right. Right. Well, that Burning Man, you know, the only thing when I went, the only thing you could buy was the I think ice and coffee and everybody else just gave everything away, which was really nice.

Speaker 2: Yeah, sure.

Speaker 4: And then of course, the fact that you can, you can be whoever you want to be. And I suppose that's true at the country fair too. And there aren't any real society restrictions on what what you can wear. Or how you can act?

Speaker 2: I've never been to Burning Man. Have you, Carl?

Speaker 4: Well, I went to. I went to. Gosh, it's been a long time now. I went twice and it really is. Was very special. You'd really feel different when you come out and you you wonder why? Why society can't be like that more. Of course, now I think I think.

Speaker 2: Festivals. There are islands and things like that, but that's about all that's permitted. I mean, that's about all that can survive under the. You know the way things are set up now. Of course.

Speaker 3: So #5 is is #5 is getting.

Speaker 4: You know.

Speaker 2: Out there.

Speaker 4: Yeah, it's getting out. I've had some issues myself that have taken me out of town, but I'm trying to be back and getting it. Out as much as possible so.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I'm trying to help with that too.

Speaker 4: Ohh, excellent. OK. Well, I just wanted to throw. That in the.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Thanks for calling, Don.

Speaker 4: OK, have a. Good one, right?

Speaker 2: You too. You too. All right. And maybe we should just take a little music break, right? At the moment.

Speaker 6: That goes on in that place in the dark. That I used to know. A girl. I do this one that her name. You still never care for me. Minor eye these days, I'm afraid. From your dream, where the world?

Speaker 5: The dark.

Speaker 6: Well, it was all the 65 years ago when the world was restrained.

Speaker 5: On the end, kissing. She closed her eyes upon the world.

Speaker 1: And picked upon the bones of last week.

Speaker 5: This talk is loud. Veronica sits in the face. It's very quiet and still and they call her a name that they never.

Speaker 1: That's right. And if they don't know nobody else with them, you still have a carefree night with the devil.

Speaker 2: Classic Elvis Costello there. Interesting piece, especially the interesting bottom line of this article in The New Yorker, July 3rd New Yorker, a trillion little pieces. How plastics are poisoning us by Elizabeth Colbert. It's pretty good, it's and especially the punchline. What's that?

Speaker 1: Did did you see?

Speaker 3: That art piece that they had news about a week or two ago, that was the world's tiniest 3D printed object. And it was a. Tiny little like. Purse, like a Louis Vuitton purse or like, I don't think it was Louis Vuitton, but it was like a designer purse that was just like. So many little microns wide, it's basically it's a microplastic. And they're like, hey, this is our the art of our time.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess it is, yeah. Yeah, that's her point. How can you have modernity without plastic when you think about it? When? You know it's everywhere. And what I liked especially. Was the punchline. Often I'm sort of feeling like Elizabeth Colbert has written some very strong stuff, but it it kind of lacks the. The deeper question you know the so where does that leave us? What is? But you know it's. As she's gotten more mainstream, it's but not this time. This is very good. And and I'm quoting this from the very last paragraph. If much of contemporary life is wrapped up in plastic and the result of this is that we are poisoning our kids ourselves and our ecosystems, then contemporary life may need to be rethought. Now that is a damn primitive. It's kind of talking there, and that's the. That's pretty strong. Yeah. Well, or you just keep on with this and everything is a wash and plastic including. Your body and the oceans and everything else. Well, I think we've got another go, very strong wind up there. From Elizabeth Colbert.

Speaker 3: Just one second.

Speaker 2: Uh, we do have another call. Who could it be?

Speaker 3: We have Jamie. Ah, hey.

Speaker 2: Hi, John. Hi Jamie. Thanks for calling.

Speaker 7: Yeah, sorry that it took me a while.

Speaker 2: Ohh, that's fine, that's fine. Well, I'm so interested in your time with the Hansa recently. Some some while spent with them. How did that come about? Or would you rather not get into that?

Speaker 7: Don't want to get into too. Much details there but a. Friend of mine. Has a project that he's doing with the hodza and. I have the opportunity to join it this year, so I did. I'm really happy that I did do that.

Speaker 2: I can't imagine how momentous that might have been and. You were living. Camping with them the whole time. Is that right?

Speaker 7: Yes, Yep. Sleeping right alongside them. In the. Beautiful African valve.

Speaker 3: How did that?

Speaker 2: Go. How was that? Like on a daily basis?

Speaker 7: It's just absolutely brilliant, really. I mean, there's so. Much to say about it. You could take up more than an. Hour of your show discussing it. But you know.

Speaker 4: I guess what's the the best way?

Speaker 7: To put it here, for Anarchy radio is that. What people are asking me, what did you learn? And I did learn some certain things that we. Can talk about. But in a way I didn't really learn that. Much, I just. Saw what I already knew from years and years of researching this situation, reading about it, trying to understand. And immediate return hunter gatherers and I just basically saw verification of all of the stuff that that has been discussed. You know, in, in the light of anti say of anarcho primitivist ways of thinking it. And that's one thing that really stands out. You know like when you think of all the naysayers. Even like how you know? Kevin Tucker was attacked for so many years for for being accused of being so ideological about immediate return hunter gatherers, a lack of surplus, things like that. Well. I'd like to see those naysayers go camp for a week with the hodza and then tell me that we are wrong. You know that that that's that's one of the main things is just you're actually witnessing truly free people actually free human beings. And you're seeing how they accomplish that and you're seeing how happy and healthy. They are because of it. And it's right there before your eyes and then. This is contrasted with what's happening to people like the hasa that are being slowly but surely decimated by. Agricultural pastoralis cultures that are invading their lands. And you, you see those people quite a bit too, when you're out on the land there. And so you you see this direct contrast between not just the adaptation to the land that's different. One of them? That's pretty much decimating the country and the other that's lives like in close cohesiveness with it. Then you also you also see the different attitudes, right, like among the pastoralists, you can see the sort of how the women kind of hide away. Like blatant patriarchy. You know, just the the property rights assumptions that they. And then you contrast to that to to the hodza, and you see the distinct difference between these two different ways, and you don't even see a bunch of technology, right? Neither one of these cultural groups, the pastoralists that are invading, halts the country and the hearts that have any high level of technology at all. There's no phones there. There's some modern clothes. You know, there's there's certain things, right. The the Hogs have had metal for 2000 years or more, but you don't they they don't have technology. So what you're seeing is it's kind of in its bare naked form the difference between the domesticated. Pastoralists, type psychology and way of life versus an immediate return. Nomadic hunter Gatherer, way of life, like right before your eyes and that is really something to see. And it really verifies. So much of the the thesis you know about. Immediate return hunter gatherers and that they are actual anarchists. And that's what you're seeing right there.

Speaker 2: Two basic ways of being that. It's so far apart.

Speaker 7: Yeah, and that's. They do have a relationship with they have the hard. They're not. They're very peaceful. You know, they they they're reaction to conflict. And and conquest is to run and hide. You know, it's not to fight back. So they've slowly but surely developed sort of a relationship with the herders. That's positive in a way. And so it's not like you're in this conflict but the. The herders just kind of run the show, really. And the hogs are just trying to basically adapt around them. You know, they, they, they're basically they're, you know, I was with a group. Of 19 people. Who are persistently hunting. And foraging every day, getting large amounts of food from hunting and gathering and. I mean, that's a whole big topic we can discuss, but they're doing this in like a war zone, for lack of a better way to put it like that. They're they're still able to get wild food to a significant degree, but to travel through that country, you're going. Herds of cows at times and areas that used to have water that are decimated by by cattle herders getting the water from there and. Yeah, everywhere you go is the traces of goats and cows. There's a bunch of corn fields all over, and the corn fields are kind of acting like how corn fields act in the in the Midwest. You know, they're bringing in. But he in this case, some Impala antelope. So then the the Hogs are able to get those bigger animals like Impala and kudu cause of the corn fields really because that's where it's kind of like some. Country that the that the wild animals are attracted to, you know? But but the the rest of the stuff is really just. It's already a deserted environment, but it's it's really hammered, you know, by by all the cows and goats. It's just everywhere. So you kind of see this kind of war zone that the hogs are trying to navigate to. Survive in and. I mean, it's really sketchy because there's about. My understanding is there's about 200 left that are still actual self-reliant hunter gatherers. And then there's another 800 or so that are more settled down at this point and. These ones that are still continuing to. To get by. As hunter gatherers are, you know, really threatened. It you can see that from standing there. That said, you're also seeing, you know, 810 year old boys who can hunt for themselves and go out and get their own small game and birds and come back and just throw it on the fire. And eat it and. Teenagers 27 year old people who? Are pretty much haunt entirely for themselves. They're masters of making bows, arrows, whatever. You know, whatever needs to happen to get by. They can do it, and they're really energetic. They hunt really hard and they don't let up. And they identify themselves as hunters. We are free hunters, you know. That's like the identity you sense. 3 hunters we we will survive as hunters, you know they have that ethos with like that driving identity even in the youth and there's no phones. That's getting scarier, though, because you know where that goes once that happens. Women are falling all. Day-to-day traditional way of life. Gathering tubers, berries, wild cucumbers, bell Bab, fruit, women will get. If they see small game, they'll whack it with their digging stick and bring that home feed the babies. You're just you're seeing. You're also seeing in this context like you're seeing from everything we understand you're seeing. The closest thing we probably have to the original. Sapiens adaptation. If you want to agree that ancestral populations did evolve in East and southern Africa, so a lot of this technology. Yes. So a lot of this technology that you that you're seeing you know is is even predates our species potentially. You know, some of especially some of the things the women are doing and just to be able to see that is just brilliant and it's just. It's free and happy and healthy and and. You there? When I say you're witnessing optimal human fitness and physical but but social, you know, and ecological human fitness, that's what you're witnessing.

Speaker 2: Bottom line, we're not intense experience. I bet you're just still buzzing with the all of that.

Speaker 7: I really am, you know. It's actually a. I'm still. I'm still not all there since I've gotten back to the US for several reasons, but yeah, I'm just. I mean, it's really scary. Just just. Just I I I I didn't leave optimistic for for the future. I didn't. I mean that's an important thing to say. In fact, I left quite angry. At not the Hadza, but at just seeing the dominant politic of Africa and what it really is, you know, which is a, which is a a pastoral pastoralist herder politic and then you can see how things have evolved there and. I mean, these are like. Capitalistic delayed returns to the thinking people and they always have been since they they invaded southern Africa. And they're they're interested in owning property and having wealth, and they have elite, you know, hierarchy with elite, elite stratification. And those people on the show, they're the Lords of Africa, right? Like they they. They're the ones who make all the money off of the national parks. Now that that are cost thousands of dollars for tourists to go to where actually all the big game that exists. In a healthy way is where you could actually like. I was thinking that on some of one of those parks that you could probably have 1000 nomadic immediate return hunter gatherers surviving in one of those parks, but there's no way that's going to happen, right? And they're kicked out of there. So then who? You know who's facilitating the the the ivory trade, who's facilitating the the rhino horns getting extracted? You know, I mean, I I know about this is. There's all kinds of internal corruption and what you learn is is that these people like care about wildlife like because it's it's the financial incentives, that's why they care about the protection. Of the wildlife. They're not like a lot of them are not just like gung ho. Like care about all these? You know, they're not like ecologically carrying people in a way. It's like, how can we get money out of this? And that's the dominant politic. And that's why hunter gatherers in Africa are so decimated, you know? That that's the the scary thing. And they just have so much power. Like the people that are in the heart of the country, they're they're from the groups called the toga Isamu Iraqi. Not really Massai, but those people. Why did they end up in, in in the in the Lake Yahtzee region, where the hogs are? Well, they got pushed there too because of other more powerful herding groups. Such as like the Masai, who are very warlike, and then these other herders that are in like Yasi are like more peaceful. So then they got pushed. They have nowhere to go. They just have to keep roaming along and they end up, you know, in the last area where the hots ahead are at, like their refuge, which is the Lake Yahtzee region, which is where they ended up because it's, it's it's dry and desserty there it's not, it's not the. The amazing healthy grasslands of the of the Serengeti, with a lot of water holes. And stuff. The the hosts that got pushed into there because of the herders invaded and pushed them into Lake Yossi is like a refuge and and then the herders. That had invaded like Serengeti and stuff. Well, they got kicked out of there by the Germans and the English to create the national parks, stuff like that. And so the hogs are just at the very end of the line, you know.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Wow, yeah.

Speaker 5: Let's see.

Speaker 7: So go ahead, sorry.

Speaker 2: Oh well, just yeah, that's. The universal. Story of that dominant ethos. Of domestication, whatever form it takes.

Speaker 7: Yeah. Where is it, I mean?

Speaker 2: Against freedom.

Speaker 7: Most people don't realize that that sub-Saharan Africa was pretty much entirely occupied by by a hunter gatherers, probably ancestral sawn, and hordes of people for. Up until only, like 2500 years ago, like the the herding groups the bounty speaking people.

Speaker 4: They all just.

Speaker 7: Invaded sub-Saharan Africa and very recently, and why is that because. They were influenced by the Middle East, agriculture and fertile, the Fertile Crescent stuff and not cross over, you know, into Egypt, then down into Africa. And then they took that on their populations, grew and expanded. And there's all this, you know, war and violence and stuff associated with that slave. The slave trade originates, you know. Way, way back before Europeans even showed up on Africa. And then, so of course, these pastoralists are running to try to get away and find their own space. But then that's when they enter all of this country that was exclusively immediate return, hunter gatherer country for probably more than a few 100,000 years. And it's very recent, yeah.

Speaker 2: Amazing story. Amazing experience, I'm sure.

Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean they they hunt it a lot. And so I got to see a lot of a lot of game harvest and you know with with different with the with the Bone Arrow technology, these different like poison arrows, different types of arrows that they use, different strategies different. Animals and we ate, we ate a ton of different. Game that they got and then you get to see how they eat too. On this whole whole dietary thing, because the heads have been a big component of the dietary discussion, you know. So getting to see that is absolutely brilliant and it verifies a lot about that nutrition, that the nutrition that they. Have is probably. It goes back hundreds of thousands of years too, like you're kind of witnessing at least an African type like payload of the diet right before your eyes. With the animals they eat, they eat like everything they eat, all the organs they they clean the intestines, they eat that stuff. They have these big cookouts like it's totally immediate return, you know, like they'll get a bunch of baboons or or a Bush pig or or or a warthog or. And then they'll just have a big feast, you know, and they'll cut up what's left hanging on the tree. Put it next to the camp and you know, they'll they'll lay around and consume what they have. And then as soon, you know, as that starts running out, they're they're right back on it. Like back out again. And just like they they they get it. They eat it. They eat. It and they. They they share. It and then they run out again and keep hunting. You know, you just totally immediate return like you.

Speaker 2: OK.

Speaker 7: You witness how that goes. In my.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like a perfect example of that.

Speaker 7: Yep. And the. I mean, what else like? Some brilliant stuff that I saw like this, like a kid, a young kid,


[audio] Whatever happened to 'post-left'? Anarchist dregs vs. fresh advances. Heat, flooding extremes: even more erratic. Unprecedented hopelessness in Britain. Record global cocaine use and production. "Betrayal of Innocence" by JZ. Plastic in Utero launch. "Chronic Noise Proves Deadly." Loads of anarchist book fairs. Action news. Industrial scale solar in desert: destructive, like social media. One call. No broadcast next week.

Speaker 1: The views expressed on this program are not necessarily the views of KWB, a radio or the associated students of the University of Oregon. Anarchy Radio is an editorial collage providing analysis and opinions of John Zerzan and the community at large.

Speaker 2: That's right. You're listening to K. WVA Eugene. I am here in the studio with John tonight. It's 541-346-0645 as we kick off the evening with some Johnny Cash.

Speaker 3: I went. Walking through streets paved with gold. Lifted some stones, saw the skin and bones of a city without a soul. I went out walking. Under an atomic sky where the ground won't turn and the rain, it burns like the tears. When I said goodbye. Yeah, when was nothing. Nothing but the thought of you. I went wondering. Wind drifting through the capitals of Tim. Where men can't walk or freely talk and sons turn their fathers in. I stopped outside the church house where the citizens like to sit. They say they. Want the Kingdom? But they don't want. God in it. Down that old Lady Lane. I passed by 1000 signs looking for my own name. But the thought you looking. I went out there. In search of experience. To taste and to touch.

Speaker 1: Hello there. It's anarchy Radio, June 27th.

Speaker 5: There won't be no.

Speaker 1: Anarchy Radio next week, 4th of July. I'll be I'm sure experiencing paroxysms of patriotic fever. Not the time to be an anarchist. Actually, it's because Carl won't be here. The number one reason.

Speaker 2: It's not in honor of.

Speaker 1: It's not.

Speaker 2: Didn't stay.

Speaker 1: Probably not. But back on the 11th and might have Jamie calling in, he said. I think he's just now getting back from East Africa and hanging with the Hadza. And that's going to be interesting. Yeah, he's he's an anthropologist and. Got to do some field work, and yeah, that's an interesting story. Going to be keen on that. Well, I had two wonderful gifts yesterday. One was from a letter from Sean Swain and I don't usually. Take the time to. Get into the. Anarchist prisoners thing. It's sad that you know only a. An hour a week if I guess that's my main excuse, but anyway. Just wanted to say. Just feel like a shout out him. His, as you may know, he's been locked down since 1991. He was convicted after killing an intruder in self-defense who was an abuser. Of had been an abuser of of his girlfriend. Anyway, it's just delightful to see somebody who so embodies the spirit of resistance has for so long and. I hope to be able to do a podcast with him before too long. And by the way, you can go to And yeah. One inspiring cat and among many you know, there's some people. Some of the very finest who? Get our love and respect and support out there and. She had more time to talk about. About them. And the other gifts that are showed up yesterday was plastic and utero, a journal of anti SIM Anarchy Reborn from the compost of Wasteland modernity. Put together by Artemis, very cool. 32 pages. Hard to. Hard to see how you could do more with just 32 pages and I I like the old style or old school. Kind of format. Understand Steve. Helped with that. And Jason, I think and and otherwise just quite a number of. Mostly recent people. I mean new to the scene in general and. Very cool stuff. It's uh. Very strong pieces and I think. Well, last week he was, he called and said or was it the week before? How to get it? And you can write to PO Box 72. Seymour, Illinois 61875. To get a hold of Artemis for plastic and utero. And civilized distro. Because he always also does a fabulous podcast. You know, this brings to mind interesting deal here. I mean, I I don't think there's a whole lot going on in some ways in the anarchist milieu right now. Seems kind of quiet at least the circles I'm in. But on the other hand, also seems like there's been kind of a. Either a shift or a clarification that's going on. That seems to me anyway. And I think there's kind of a. Perhaps the turning point? And I'm thinking about the mainline anarchist media stuff. And what's been lacking, and what hasn't been addressed, we put it that way. For example, crime think. I've heard from people that described the current crime thing stuff as kind of a nosedive into liberalism. Chist reform stuff and progressive stuff and. Although I have to say I don't think it was a very sudden thing in some ways because I remember. The to change everything campaign in 2015, I think they put together 60 different gigs, mostly in North America, but in other places as well. And it wasn't to change everything. It was. It was various accounts from people. People who have been involved in different struggles. Important struggles. But you know, I got to say there wasn't anything basic about it and. They got mad at me. I I was the one who set up the Eugene gig. And and greeted them and so forth. But I I made a decision to. To not attend because they would have had to. Challenge that to change everything. Now other things need changing, various issues, various things and but. You shouldn't call it to change everything if you're not dealing with fundamental stuff. And then there is. It's going down, which is the main Antifa channel, you might say in search of new forms of life. Well, well, that is such a misnomer. It in search of staying with the old, tired liberalism is more, more and more. The way they should describe it it it has some news value. Given that, and certainly the other one I'm thinking of is of course a And there's no more little black card, but. You know, it's a news service, yes, but the politics. If you look at the column of for comments on the right side of the page, the. But it's just so embarrassing. There's nothing even post left about it, and that's a term that's been thrown around for a long time, right? Well, we're all post left. We're all sort of anti SIV. We're all kind of hating on the technology, you know. Well, you know, whatever is cool, whatever is, you know, but. It has not cut it. There's just no edge there. has the. Topic of the week. Which is mainly just these personal style things. I mean nothing. You know, almost kind of this self help thing just. You know, it could be somewhat interesting, but that's that's what it is. That's the thing to talk about this week. Pretty weak. But I am I am encouraged because there are new scenes. New voices, new energy. I really feel that I'm I've been getting. Some emails too. They're just damn encouraging and. So I could be wrong, but I think there's. Something coming on. Well, let's see. I think you know what I'm going to. Do right here. This is my latest piece. It's called betraying innocence. I haven't been writing a lot lately, but and this isn't super long. None of these things are. Oh, and by the way, I may be jumping the gun here, but I. I think. There might be a little booklet. Comprised of seven or eight of columns or column length pieces by me. This one might be slightly longer, but. Kind of an ABC's of anarcho primitivism, according to Jay-Z. I've been talking to Ben about that at detritus. I mean, I've done it before jumping the gun and then it it doesn't work out, but I'm kind of hopeful about that. Could be kind of fun. Various people have said there should be some little primer, you know, some little. Like I said, kind of an ABC's thing or one person's ABC's. It's not any definitive dogma or anything. They were his. Betrayal of innocence after 20 years in California College and beyond, I returned to Oregon in the 1980s. My writing efforts were influenced by the Situationists, and especially by the Frankfurt School. I don't know where Kim or Marcusa, for example. Speaking of Macusa, I came across a wonderfully intriguing question that he asked can the past be somehow redeemed put right? I was struck by the audacity of such a question. It's meta utopian quality. That crew more or less haunted me, as did alone from Christian liturgy. That I felt somewhat drawn to despite having long left the status of believer. Angus de qui tollis peccata mundi. Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the. Two sorts of redemption, to be sure. Maybe I was predisposed toward what became my major focus in the 80s. The origins of alienation in terms of primary symbolic dimensions. The origins worked provoked Bob Black to label me, perhaps not altogether unjustly, as a religious thinker looking for the original sin. Those were the heyday. Those years were the heyday of post modernism, whose dominant ideas issued origins, are such like pursuits. Reality was seen as messy, impure, even indeterminate, and any thought of non alienated beginnings was off limits in a period of political retreat from the 1960s and 70s. My cousin's questioned about redeeming the past was buried by an unrelenting, cynical present who could be thought of as saved or without guilt. A quantity like innocence reserved was reserved only for the victims of authorities, enemies. The unabomber's targets were innocent victims, of course. When asked by media if I defended his actions, my response and question were never answered. I do not endorse sending bombs in the mail, but were his targets innocent? Those agents of the brave new world, the anti life technologists. After 911, there came to light, not that he'd hidden it. An essay by Ward Churchill of the University of Colorado, calling into question the innocence of those killed in the Twin Towers. Corporate headquarters. And World Center Center of Global Capital. Which which condemns many to servitude or death, innocence. But the deafening chorus proclaimed it as senseless terrorist murder of the blameless. Churchill was fired, although he was acquitted in court of a trumped up charge of plagiarism. The phony grounds for firing a tenured professor. His appeal for return to his job was denied. From the Latin notary to harm Innocens incapable of doing harm. It is possible to define in a sense, in differing, even opposing, ways. Taken literally, it rules out choice decision. In the step not beyond and the writing of the disaster, French philosopher Maurice Blank show takes this position. If innocence is definitively outside of evil, it can be neither space nor capacity for responsibility. Blanchot saw a fall out of innocence as essential for the human condition, for the subject to emerge. Without this fall, there is no human, no symbolic dimension, IE no language, no sense of time. Blanco held that quote. The very temporality of humans is at stake. No entry into history, alas. Other thinkers, such as Heidegger and Agumba concur. Leaving innocence means, via the symbolic what it is to be human. Blanco saw attention, a latent desire to break out of innocence. Kierkegaard similarly founded anxiety in favor of a fall from innocence. Of course, a less over civilized perspective sees the opposite. There is pretty universally A yearning for the non symbolic the non historical. That is what we chafe against, not a non innocence. Walter Benjamin at the peak of his thought discerned our messianic need to burst the fetters of time in history. History and prehistory exhibited attention akin to Benjamins, utopian impulse, and to assert an absence, objectivity and capacities to blanchon's supposed state of innocence is nothing short of preposterous. For the longest time, before outside of symbolic culture, people thrived in non domesticated hunter gatherer band societies. Kierkegaard. Kierkegaard was quite wrong to identify ignorance as the quote profound secret of innocence. Ignorance of the facts of human prehistory is close to the definition of philosophy abstract, domesticated reason. At the sunset of symbolic culture and civilization, its fruits constitute an alarming dead zone. It is more and more obvious what trading away innocence involves. 541-346-0645. Maybe you have a thought about where we're at. In terms of the anti authoritarian. Well, things are just going to rise so fast in terms of the environment. It's kind of amazing. Today and at Futurity. It's reported that global reservoirs were getting emptier, especially in South Asia, Africa and South America. Meanwhile, severe rain storms this is today's New York Times front page story, severe rain storms, worsening drainage problems at risk across the US. From the Association of flood pains floodplains managers. And meanwhile, also in today's news from the World Resources Institute. Tropical forests are disappearing at a very fast pace. Deforestation at the rate of 10% every year. There was a climate summit in Glasgow 2021 where 145 countries pledged. To end this loss. More phony stuff, like all the other. Summits of that kind. Well, the tremendous heat, it's starting to hit pretty darn early, the Miami Herald. Had a story. Yesterday, while also reporting that the the Heat index is up close to 120 in places in Florida anyway, the Hardy County, Florida sheriff on the Sunday. Asks would be criminals to wait on their crimes for cooler temperatures. Kind of hilarious. It'll be safer for. All of us. If you wait till it isn't so scourging. And it's an early arriving hurricane season and record sea surface temperatures off the coast of Africa. Are likely to give it a boost. On the weekend news. About the Earth's oceans in May. Warmest on record. Yeah, the temperature of the oceans began charting that as of 1850. Coral reefs are dying, the levels are rising. Going to be blackouts? In this country. Due to heat, not just here I think. And again, back to the water these severe. Differing or opposing aspects of the same disaster, Bangladesh. Big story yesterday called in Bangladesh. Seeing the woes water produces. Bangladesh is the low lying delta nation. And with the melting Himalayan glaciers. And erosion and the rising sea. It will be underwater. It was when, but. Not that far off. Well, let's see. We've got some. Well, of course we got the mass shootings, especially on the weekend. Here in this country and Speaking of glaciers, by the way, three of Mount Rainiers. Glaciers have melted away. On that iconic mountain in Washington state. Severe heat in China at the moment. Yeah. Another thing about Texas. At Corpus Christi. And they're in. They're in the third week of heat wave heat Dome kind of thing in Texas. Heat index Corpus Christi was 125 degrees on Sunday. Very extreme for June? Yeah. Third, third week of that kind of heat there. Tremendous spate of tornadoes in the Midwest and the South and. 1400 flights were cancelled on the East Coast yesterday. Due to severe thunderstorms. And Canadian smoke from all those fires is now hitting Europe. You know, if you tried to draw up a a very, very frightening. List of stuff or a sweeping descriptive thing. You can hardly beat. What's? Been going on this week. Well as the. John Harris, writing in the Guardian. On Sunday. Oh, man. You know, he was talking about. What has been? Inundating England's towns and suburbs. Fear and exhaustion. And Harris pointed out John Harris is the author. He pointed out well, there's been troubles. There's been. Problems and crises and so forth. But what he's writing about is what he sees as a new and frightening hopelessness. In Britain, and it made me think, and I'm sorry to I mentioned this certainly more than once, but the first. Novel by the French.

Speaker 5: Character uvic.

Speaker 1: The elementary particles he was describing. Very, very powerfully, the. When society ends. And there's just no juice left. There's no there's no energy. It's it's not a dramatic thing, but well it is. But I mean, it's not. You know, fire or ice or something like that. It's. Just everything's drained away. Ain't nothing left. It just stops, you know. This almost sounds like he's. Taking a page from that. Novel that came out. Well, I think it was just more than 20. Years ago now. And from the Independent last Thursday. The number of Britons who have largely preventable diabetes too. Has doubled over the past 20 years. Predicting that there will be more than a billion diabetics by 2050. And you know, this is largely a function of obesity sedentism. You might get up off your couch, or you can buy a car without even missing much more than a commercial as you're staring at the tube. The United Nations report out today. Cocaine use and production globally is at an all time high. Surprising no one, I suppose. And noise pollution. Yes, it's a pretty much a constant so many places. Quite annoying but. It was at peace last Tuesday in the New York Times, the DIN of daily life threatens the health of 1,000,000. Yeah, chronic noise. Proves deadly. Not just a pain in. The neck. And it talks about the 1972 Noise Control Act. Under the EPA. Well, that proved to be absolutely unenforceable. Just another. Kind of silly gesture. Kind of a mockery of the real thing.

Speaker 2: We have Artemis on the phone.

Speaker 6: John, how you doing?

Speaker 5: Good, good. My pleasure. Thanks for calling.

Speaker 6: Yeah. I just wanted to to say two things as first, thank you for talking about the scene. I got some orders. I know for a fact people would e-mail me saying, hey, I heard you on or I heard John talking about the scene. I would love. I would love one or two. Of them. So I'm going to.

Speaker 5: Oh good.

Speaker 6: Say yeah, it's. Been, you know, great collaborating with all the people. Like you mentioned, Steve, Jason, even Sasha. Was a big. Help, just maybe silly, just annoying them with calls or texts and be like. Does this look good? Does this sound good? They're like just just do it. Just shut up and do it.

Speaker 5: Oh, wow. Cool. Oh, it's marvelous.

Speaker 6: And then, yeah, and so it's been, it's been great and actually through it, I've realized I got one from a from someone that only lives like an hour away from me and people. It's like, whoa. Just like already the scene making really great connections with people I had known and it solidified. Or it's opening up, you know, new opportunities, which is awesome. And so I want to say thank you for like, helping facilitate that in a. Lot of different ways.

Speaker 1: Oh, my pleasure, man. I mean it very.

Speaker 6: Yeah. And then. Oh, go on.

Speaker 1: Much so and I'm. It sounds like you're already enthused for for a #2.

Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I did two print runs of of plastic meter one and I went to them immediately. And so there is the demand and people are reaching out. Like can I write for #2? I'm like. I guess so.

Speaker 5: Oh, wonderful. That's so encouraging.

Speaker 6: Right. Because I imagine it was going to be just. Ohh, maybe just the people that wrote. And then my friends. And then it was people. New Zealand, Ireland, Canada or like, can I get one I'm like. Oh my God.

Speaker 5: Literally hear that.

Speaker 6: Yeah, that's that's also really scary because I'm just waiting for people to be like, this sucks.

Speaker 5: Yeah. Now that I have it horrible.

Speaker 6: That's the scary thought, but yeah, it's been. It's awesome. I haven't done an official call yet, just cause I'm trying to. I'm trying to make sure I'm confident in the theme, but I'm also just kind of doing some private ask like, hey, I know you couldn't do a number. One, but I really want to have you in. Two. So then hopefully in the next like month or so, I'll probably do like. A public like here's #2, something like that. That's probably the plan and hopefully to get it out by the end of this year. So I could have two out in the year. I think that would. Be pretty, pretty manageable I think, I hope.

Speaker 1: Well, that would be like two and six months because you know, we're about halfway through the air.

Speaker 6: Right. Yeah, right. So we'll see. We'll see. I just, I don't want to bite off more than I can chew, which is a, you know, another part. It's one thing to do during the summer when I I don't, I only have a part time job and not when I'm teaching. And then. You know everything that comes with that, so we'll see. The second thing I want to talk about is kind of a question for you is because my part time job, I'm outside a lot. I work with some forest preserves and things of that nature, and we're just noticing like the ephemeral ponds are gone like a month early than they should be. Things of that nature and my coworkers, they talked about climate anxiety, which is a. Term, you and listeners probably are aware of. I'm curious what your thoughts are like this climate anxiety. Do you think that's a valid response or do you think that's a response that's generated by corporations? You know what I mean? Like corporations and stuff. Like, what do you think the response should be to climate change? Blake, I've been using the term planet rage or climate angst as opposed to anxiety because I don't say like, I don't want to perceive myself as a victim or on the defense. It's like rather it should be. What avenues are opening up to us through this while also being realistic about the consequences. So I'm curious what your take on that is.

Speaker 1: Well, that sounds right to me. And you know, anxiety is generally kind of free floating. It can be strong, no doubt about it. But you know, it doesn't really go anywhere. And you think it's feel better if you try to. You know, do something in, in, in the area of resisting and. You know, speak your mind and you know do then you might feel. Less victimized, you know, not so. Put in a passive position. You know, I think that's that's can make make a difference in you know just make a difference for the individual. Does it feel a little better about things?

Speaker 6: Right.

Speaker 1: But it's there. I mean, you know, we're bombarded, bombarded and I help with the bombarding. You know, if the. With the dreadful highlights of the. You know, following civilization and that's and yeah, the physical environment is just to. Unavoidably, you could debate some of the rest of it. Possibly. But you know there's no getting around the the facts of of coming down. So obviously and historically it's it scares people, it's scares kids there. They're not. They're coming. Up in the midst of this and the yeah, it's going to be bad news.

Speaker 6: Right. Yeah, I I think that's true. And I mean like with my work, just the thought of like when we when we're hiking right and then you just realize how dry the ground is and you're like, that's not meant to look like that. The river is meant to be a whole lot higher than that. Like that's a scary feeling when it's, you know when you realize it's structural. So like when you remove an invasive species or you pick up litter, it's like no matter what I do as an individual, it fundamentally probably. Doesn't mean a lot. Right. But it's also like, what else are you supposed to? Right, there's the anarchist response to that right. But then there's it's also just the bombarding of, oh, you have to be realistic. You have to play your part. You can only do so much. And I think, like those answers, actually just. Feed into the anxiety. If well, if I can't do anything. You know.

Speaker 5: I know, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: Well, his people personally too. I mean, we used to go every August pretty much to this place in Central Oregon called Twin Lakes and now the toxic algae rolls that out, that's just gone. That's we we had to stop doing that. Things like that. I mean it. That's one of the. Things that's so. Well, it's. You can see it for one thing also. I mean then it's stock like for another thing it's you know it's a specific thing that you come up against and worse and worse. And so it's it hits people more directly. Very often, you know it's not just what you read about and it scares you, it's. Go outside and. Yeah, there it is.

Speaker 3: Right.

Speaker 6: Right out of curiosity is the air quality issues reaching out to where you're at?

Speaker 1: Well, not yet. We haven't had much of any smoke here. Two years ago. Very, very bad heat and very bad smoke. But here we are still in June, so.

Speaker 4: He invited.

Speaker 1: They're four as far as already in Southern California, but not nothing much up here, but. It's going to happen. I mean it's. It was a pretty wet winter. Lots of snow pack, which is good, you know, but also grows up a lot of fast growing foliage and then that can dry out and catch fire easily later, you know, so but now it's not bad.

Speaker 6: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was just. Curious because I mean even down to. Illinois versus where? I live the air quality is. It's in that like yellow, orange or even red, depending where you're at, or I think about Brady, the Co host of uncivilized. And he's in Minnesota. And when it was really bad a couple weeks ago. He's like can. You, you know, he watched the work. He's like, I can see like a quarter mile ahead of me. But otherwise it's just fog, or you made a good point. You can look at the sun without. Blinking because it's so covered like. That's not a good thing, that. You can be able to look right. At the Sun at any point in the day and not. You know you're you're not wincing. And I I I thought about that. I looked up at the site today. I was like, yeah, I can look at the sun just fine. And the fact it's like orange, it's like the apocalyptic, you know, it inspires a sense of apocalypse. But then the irony is it's business is casual, right, business as usual. Rather, that's the. That's the scary thought. Yeah.

Speaker 1: It goes on, you know, until it doesn't go on and then yeah, it's hit.

Speaker 6: Yeah. Well, that's, that's all I had and ending on a really bright note as usual, right, right. Well, I appreciate you taking my call. You have a great one.

Speaker 1: Thanks so much. Great to hear your voice. Well, let's that was very cool. Let's we got a music break. Queued up with.

Speaker 2: Yeah, Dave bass.

Speaker 1: OK. Dave. Beth. Yeah. Let's have a little of that. Thanks.

Speaker 2: That's a nice record.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. Nice little riff there in the middle. Well, there are a huge number of seems like a lot more than usual, or maybe I. Haven't been so completely tuned into them, but spring and summer now summer. Too many to list and all over the map. South America, like for example, Uruguay, Argentina, Brazil. Seattle here and the Los Angeles Center has put fear back after five years in August, and I had a whole list of ones that have already happened, which I didn't get to, so I can. Leave that alone, but. Wanted to get back to. The murderer of Raymond Mattia, who's tonight? Oh, I know a friend of his. Oh, it's. Person down there. Southwest of Tucson. On their land was murdered earlier in the month by US Border Patrol. In league. With the. Oh no. Official police, who were paid by. By the feds, of course. Yeah, there was a video that just came out. Shows the unarmed person Matia walking out of his house to talk with the Border Patrol, who showed up. Whereupon he was shot 9 times. So the autopsy decided it was homicide. As if there was any question. And and Mattia had evidence of joint Border Patrol and cartel partnership. Regarding drugs across the border. And if you wanted to get more on this story, censored news for June 26 is the latest. They've got the latest on this. Homicidal operation by the Border Patrol, backed up by the official. Tribal police. Well, the the marvelous new 12 minute film talked about it last. Week reimagining community Darsha Narvaez recently talked about it and. I'm hopeful about something hasn't come out. It's not. It's not coming out till July. This Oppenheimer movie, new Christopher Nolan film. There was a piece in Wired how Christopher Nolan learned to stop worrying and love AI. Obviously, the play on the. Learn to. Stop worrying and learn to love the bomb. AI is not the atomic bomb, but the new technology is afoot in the world and. And I'm thinking that's might be. Might have a good take in that general direction. I hope because there's some other stuff that's the usual weakness from the Yale climate connections. An interview with. Famous Bill McKibben. Where has he been lately? Well, he's got something cooking now called third act. This is. This is for people over 60. So yeah, he figures it's not just young activism. That's. On offer, I mean it should be older folks. So mobilizing them to do what well to register and to vote and to demonstrate at banks that. Bankroll fossil fuel industry as if that's anything new. So weak this guy still doesn't have any clue whatsoever, no matter how. Horrific it gets. But there's some I mentioned this in passing new zones or new numbers. The local kids #9. Is right now out summer of 2023 calls for action. In a new one, anti Systema. Which is bilingual and English and German. For anarchy and passionate destruction with the eco orientation, to be sure. Radical energy there. And locally I've been a small part of. In Eugene and surrounding area of graffiti graffiti #5 just came out. Had a little party for that on. The weekend. If you see that, grab it up and it's very open to new stuff. Some good writing. I think it's gotten better and better. And now they're putting out 1000 issues. 1000 copies, I mean. Seems to me there was another scene. Anyway, let's get on to some of the Action News. June 6 two oil tankers were stormed by indigenous environmentalists. In canoes with Molotovs and Spears in northeast Peru. Increasingly radical activity against. Oil, which is extracted and. Sent on to Brazil to spoiling the environment. June 12th of Berlin Coal Power Plant was hit by an incendiary device. June 12th and 21st. In Indonesia, 8 ATM's were destroyed in South Sumatra province and East Java province. Than the communique as a very anti self flavor. Anti 7 in support of anarchist prisoner hunger striker Alfredo Cospec Ito. In Athens, defending the Exarchia. On June 9th and expensive restaurant interior, interior was trashed. And its expensive wine cellar destroyed. That was June 9th, June 15th. The police station at Strefi Hill, which is just part of exorcism. I know where that is at the bottom of Streva Hill. Molotovs were employed during a shift change. Wow. That is defiance. Yeah, they're trying to defend exactly against gentrification and development. And a new subway stop. But other ways to try to ruin to try to get the. This hotbed of anarchist life. On June 11th, New York City's gig food delivery workers got a minimum wage. Pay boost from $7.00 an hour to $18.00 an hour. Already effective the workers justice project pushed this. A nice result there, June 16th. In Pittsburgh. Half a dozen turf anti trans haters. Were drowned out by. Folks who outnumbered them, at least 12:50, these anti trans creeps. Yeah. Pathetic. Show up. Show as they. They don't seem to get anywhere these heaters. Or shown the door, shall we say. Time after time. There's a piece today in the LA Times. About the solar sprawl in the Mojave Desert. Corporations are planning to carpet the desert surrounding Las Vegas with giant solar installations. So you're going to have the industrial strength version of the alternative if you want to keep stuff going. That should have never been started in the 1st place, so. And industrialization that would certainly. Bring ruin to various plants and animals. Well, it's kind of the broken record here, but social media. There's a piece in Psychology Today by Hank Rothberger. About how smartphones and social media are major cause of the teen mental health crisis. Thank you, RC, and thank you for this one too. In the UPI news. Kara munez. Writes about how less social media. Equals better mental health for college students. And yesterday this is the fitness kind of story, but. Yeah, yesterday's New York Times piece is called. It's not just a chat bot, it's a life coach. Yeah. Meaning, you know, fitness deal. But but the meaning, but the word life, yeah, it it is a life coach that's for sure. And and more than just a coach. We might have to say. But you know, that's just. Intruding on every area. With speed. An interesting piece in the Sunday New York Times. Somewhat Luddite, I guess a piece called done with scrolling time for a flip phone. Yeah, dump the smartphone, read a book, but. The Reno also had to concede that, well, you still have to have a smartphone for work. So yeah you can. It's not quite the free choice exactly, really in any sense. Well, another couple of Rosie news things here. You know this, this derailment thing has become kind of a fad and it don't mean to make too light of it, but. Saturday near Billings, just West of Billings, Mt. Train carrying types of materials. And a bridge collapsed into the Yellowstone River. They're not too clear on how much very toxic stuff on this train, how much of it? Got into the river. They seem to be. Kind of. Mum on that maybe coming out later. Yeah, just a chronic thing. You want industrialized life? It's. Anyway the the. They kind of dismal and down part of everything is. You know, it is just a throw away kind of a thing. Last Thursday was reported that 13 year olds in the US. Registered the lowest math and reading scores. All about testing, of course, but low scores since they began. Charting this in 1990. Not a big long. Range there, but 13 year olds. Kind of turning off. Well, yeah, I do want to say, get your copy of graffiti locally here. And you know, as Artemis said, there are ways to jump on. And uh. Share What you're thinking and feeling about what's coming down and uh. And be part of this and I think you know, I was trying to say at the beginning making a contrast. With some of these old line. Sort of. You know, the prevailing kind of anarchist media sites and their. What they do? Where they're at, and it's just a an amazing contrast to me that there's there's exciting stuff coming on. We'll see how far it goes, but. Yeah, I think. I mean, could hardly be worse. It could hardly be. Less unavoidable this. Of the all the AI, all the chat bot stuff all the. Takeover of functions and. Productions, symbolic and otherwise, that. Have heretofore been the usual thing. It's. It's a fast moving world. It's fast getting worse and it's fast time for. Oppositional things. You know, new energies, and I think that's coming on. I really do. I've been accused of. Just clutching at straws, but I don't know I'm I'm getting this feeling even though to some degree things are relatively quiet. I mean and I like to. Always or almost always share some. You know, quickie resistance briefs from here and there. I don't know. Sometimes I think you can feel like something's going on and. As well as. What's too awfully. Dominantly going on but. Yeah, something else going on as well. Yeah, he's well, this one last thing here. Might as well get it out, because I'm going to. I won't be back for. Couple of weeks. We're watching the sky as we know it disappear. Piece from late last week. Yeah, as Artemis mentioned, the the haze, you know the pollution. The light pollution in the night sky that's part of it too. And it's that night. Now all the fires had chronic worsening smoke in the daytime sky, so. Can't let it disappear. We're going to go in a different direction. And thanks for listening and. Talk to you in two weeks. Take care.

Speaker 4: There, lad.

Speaker 7: Queen man a common flares above love. Safety need man damn. The mud.

Speaker 4: With a hammer and a glove.

Speaker 7: The breaking of the.

Speaker 4: Frames traveling the heavens. Hearing in love? The whisper in rain. They hear and they're loud. Through the flickering rain. Queen Mab and Ned Ludd. Lies above everything, the men.

Speaker 7: She be which?

Speaker 4: Is she who stands by the factory wall? She bewitches she who stands. By the Willow by the pond. And queen. A weaver's not a whipper. If he's whipping on a factory friend.

Speaker 7: Queen man and.

Speaker 4: It lives in the forest and the valleys in the fall.

Speaker 3: Not in.

Speaker 4: And the. By the Pines and the caves of your mind. The California coastline. Queen man. Flickering flames and we're seeing Queen man. Through the whisper in flames.

Speaker 7: On the. Are the ruins of a goat.

Speaker 4: In the ever of your brain. And the shaking of the shadow. The whisper it rain queen man. Yeah, we'll. Through the flickering rain.

Speaker 7: Shall breathe.

Speaker 4: She have made five wood eyes. Shall. From no one. From the one. Be the grain. From the one. Be the grave. From no one's life.



Kathan co-hosts. Darcia Narvaez film "Reimagining Humanity." Severe heat so soon. Is technology "exponential and irreversible"? Emma Goldberg: "People Are Rethinking their Relationship Not Just to Work but to Time." Rising tide of mass shootings. Isolation, absence of trust blamed on "social" media. Is the Singularity already here? New drugs: even more lethal. Resistance news, In Plastic Utero, Unravel.

Speaker 1: The views expressed on this program are not necessarily the views of KWV, a radio or the associated students of the University of Oregon. Anarchy Radio is an editorial collage providing analysis and opinions of John Zerzan and the community at large.

Speaker 2: That's right. You're listening to KWVA, Eugene, where it is 7:00. Promptly, we're starting on time. It's summer and time for anarchy radio. I'm here in the studio with John. We have music from lung. To get us going.

Speaker 3: Distinct ships you. Right. So.

Speaker 0: Have to choose.

Speaker 4: It was. It was always on.

Speaker 0: But you don't.

Speaker 4: My mind it was.

Speaker 0: Just a way.

Speaker 3: And sucking my skin. I have to choose those.

Speaker 4: It was just a waste of time, but you.

Speaker 3: Don't know how we've goes.

Speaker 0: It was just too late.

Speaker 4: From my body.

Speaker 3: It was just a waste of time. You are always on my mind.

Speaker 0: It was just the way.

Speaker 1: Anything radio is indeed. June 20th Co is a little off. You said it's summer, but it isn't quite yet. Summer tomorrow is the solstice.

Speaker 5: And he neglected to say I was here in the studio as well.

Speaker 0: Exactly what I told you I did, I said. I'm in the studio with John and.

Speaker 5: Catherine. No. What? I'm pretty sure you missed that.

Speaker 2: We're going to. Have to we'll we'll listen back to the replay.

Speaker 1: Yeah, let's get the tape. Let's get the tape.

Speaker 5: Anyway, summer's tomorrow.

Speaker 1: Yeah, you're here.

Speaker 5: Glad to be here. Hey, I want to just do a shout out as we speak, Darsha Narvaez, who we did an interview with a couple of weeks ago, is doing a launch a zoom launch party at as we speak. I believe for a new movie she made called reimagining Humanity. You can get it just looking up That'll give you. It's a 12 minute. Phil, basically what she says. The idea of doing the film was first to change behavior. We need to have a goal of vision of how things can be to motivate change, be reimagining humanity provides this vision. Things don't have to be the way they are. In fact, they've hardly ever been this way. #2. Second, you need a specific direction. That's the indigenous worldview and its manifestations we can all. Assess our worldview practices and move them towards kinship with one another and the rest of the natural world. Again, 99% of humanity manifested the indigenous worldview and 3rd to accomplish this vision you need steps the evolved. And we talked about that in the interview. We can all practice nestedness in every aspect of our lives, listening to nature, respecting the needs of babies, gently receiving others perspectives, playing joyfully with one another, grieving and healing together. So the overall message of reimagining humanity is that our ancestors knew how to live well and fully, with diversity. In Oneness, we can do so too. So just once again, a thumbs up shout out to Garcia and her cohort. I believe an another individual 4 arrows was involved in the making of this 12 minute 12 minute film so.

Speaker 1: Wonderful piece to say so much in 12 minutes. I also, yeah, she was also stressing the remembering. It's not something that never existed, and it's it needs to be recalled and of course implemented. Very lovely job. And great interview two weeks ago, for sure. What a clash with the with reality, of course. I only get it's been 2 seconds on this but the the amount of mass shootings is just. Staggering just keeps growing, and this past weekend was a cavalcade of mass shooting. You know the Juneteenth. Weekend, the Father's Day, weekend, whatever you call it. I mean, especially just to mention the 123 people shot West of Chicago suburb of Chicago.

Speaker 5: All over nationally, Columbia Gorge up there.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, from one end of the country to another. It wasn't 23 fatalities, but it was. And I think 23 people were shot.

Speaker 5: And and it and it's is certainly remarkable and worth commenting on that that like you said, that the holiday that we arrived here at U of O and it's graduation, everybody's carrying flowers and balloons and stuff wearing their graduation garb. And it's yesterday was Juneteenth celebrations, and the day before that was Father's Day, you know, and regardless of what these holidays are in a culture, you know? Of whatever level of celebration and then coincident with that, is these shootings happening at places of shooting among the innocents? You know, it's like at a rock concert up the gorge in the amphitheater, shootings on the ones outside Chicago. I mean it's it's kind of like a a lemmings jumping off the Cliff.

Speaker 1: And once again, not just the USA. There were two match shootings in Serbia in two days. Remember that, like, was it 10 days ago or so.

Speaker 5: Absolutely. And it's not just shootings, you know, it's stabbings. It's like all kinds of methods. This Wall Street Journal, the main lockdown, casualties, children and and you can't fail to note in 2020, suicide was the 2nd. And homicide, the 4th leading cause of death among adolescents aged 10 to 14. Spike in homicides has drawn less attention than the suicides, but between 19 2019-2020 one it is 10 to 24 increased 37%. Even more in those 15 to 1944% and 10 to 14. 56%.

Speaker 1: Yeah. And part of the savagery is, you know, just part of the. I don't know physical nuts and bolts of it. You read about fentanyl, fentanyl, the big killer. Well, there are several drugs that are more powerful, more lethal even than fentanyl. You know. You and I remember this perhaps the 60s smoking pot. This stuff that's smoking now is like 100 times more powerful, one hit wonder. Blow your head off with 11 toke pretty much. Wow, that tells you a lot right there.

Speaker 5: Well, Anne Anne, right there and the fact that it's illegal, you know, and so many, I mean the pacification, the annihilation of the up and coming generations with these like the the self destruction, the, the put on them, destruction of lives. Is is breathtaking.

Speaker 1: That's why we. Need dosha Norway? Yes. That is just a beautiful. Yeah, from her, you know that hope for the reverberates. And I hope that launch too bad it coincides with our broadcast here. But.

Speaker 5: But the film at any time like is worth checking out. Worth sharing, worth having people come over or gather in some kind of place. Look each other in the face and look at something that's a different way of looking and being in the world.

Speaker 1: In just 12 minutes, it's very stunning in that regard. You know, I said so much in 12 minutes.

Speaker 5: For sure. And the whole, you know the summaries or the whole. There is a growing trend on the positive side of looking at indigenous life ways at at at Kinfolk systems, at at a different way of being from the horror that that's being advocated and promoted and constantly noted in the mass media in. In all the, all the. Productions of the. Technological systems, the media, the communication systems of our time, which are not the face to face.

Speaker 1: There was a piece last week. You know, it didn't seem like very long ago. It wasn't very long ago at. All you know, the transhumanists with their singularity. Pretty *****. Pretty. Not too many people thought that was well, it's imaginable, perhaps, but kind of way out there. Well, now it's here already. Maybe. It's already uh, yeah, present it's. Just leaps and bounds the the barren techno verse is taking over more and more of this so-called machine learning. You know, drastic changes and. Exponential. Irreversible. That's the kind of thing. Which certainly scares people. It should, and and there is a lot of antipathy. There's a lot of not only fear of it, but, you know, active dislike of it, which is just.

Speaker 5: For sure, I mean you got the Wall Street Journal writing editorials about the unabomber's ideas aren't so marginal now. His sense of crisis, his belief that technology was on the brink of making the planet unlivable, is now shared even by many of the people who create that.

Speaker 1: What? What was the? Wall Street Journal what date was that?

Speaker 5: This is the Wall Street Journal. This is on the 18th June 18th. Look at that long, big page. Ideas aren't so and and and, I mean, you talk to you, just talk to people on the street. And that's absolutely true. They'll always paraphrase with, you know, like.

Speaker 1: Oh, OK. Two days ago, yeah.

Speaker 5: Don't appreciate the killing. You know he killed innocent people or whatever. What is innocent? But but the in terms of the ideas and and the understanding that what is pretty much. General growing general understanding that this technology is not here for us and and it's the the so-called you know the so-called networks and we're all going to be connected and communication is going to be so great is really clearly being revealed that. This is absolutely not true, and we're just being forced to be connected to a machine.

Speaker 1: Everywhere you. Experience life. You see the opposite. Interesting piece of last week in the New York Times called we asked eleven Americans why it's so difficult to trust one another. And part of the thing, in fact, the first factor they talked about was social media. People are isolated. You can't easily trust people you're separated from, and that separates, you know, the death of the social. The you just plugged in into the screens and where is the connection you know it's. That's just a fact of life. I mean, it's just a given, you know, difficult. The difficulty of trust, the absence of trust. When did that happen? I mean, you will we we can see rather easily when it happened. You know, step by step with the technology.

Speaker 5: Well, and and I mean the key point to me is like the the absolute you and the sensory in the human, your connection, you're not looking the other person in the eye, you're not smelling them, you're not seeing them, you're not feeling them, you know, it's just that alienation. It's all. Transmitted through a machine through the prosthetic. Right. You're low. Got your low smartphone in your pocket and to relate to the world, you better take it out of your pocket and get yourself in your stance of submission, bowing your head and holding it between your hands. And connected and and it's just the absence of the sensors and the sensory input. The body is replaced by the machine.

Speaker 1: And it's felt very viscerally not always articulated, but the Verge 4 days ago. Peace by Elizabeth Lopata called some things you can do if you're sick of social media. And she says almost anything. If you can get away from the enclosure of the screen and she asks, is a pretty good piece. She says when was the last time you had fun online? Simple question, right? Anybody having fun with that? We'll put.

Speaker 5: Well, and we had a caller last week, I think it was Todd talking about Accelerationism and and I think that that it certainly was significant that in 2020 and the pandemic and all the the huge jump in in the acceptance and the reliance of technology in our lives. Function that doesn't go away. You don't go backwards. There was another article, pandemic habits that. That won't die from shopping to exercise to work. Americans aren't going to go back to the way things were before, and you see that you see that in the stores where the stores that even remain open don't carry the goods you're supposed to shop online. Ordering food pickups increasingly strapped consumers. Or ordering online, skipping delivery and picking up items in persons. Mobile ordering is a big piece of it. Hybrid workouts where you're doing your workouts through zoom or through programs multi channel experiences. A hybrid exercise schedule that combines Jim visits with at home workouts, same things, schools, education, you know, just the the infiltration into every aspect of what used to be a social life is now the machine life and and the unkillable video call. People are making more video calls and hosting more meetings on zoom than ever, and this is this is not the pandemic you know.

Speaker 1: You know, post pandemic. Well, I think there is some. New York Times Book Review 2 days ago essayed by Emma Goldberg. And she argues that people are rethinking their relationship not just to work but to time. That's kind of profound insofar as it's happening. Uh. She calls it in search of a new texture of time. They're getting to some pretty basic things in the connections. I think can be made to all the rest of it. You know the poverty of work they've. The onerous nature of. More and more. Time as a thing that stands over us. You know all that, it's, it's. It's part of modernity. And I think it's clearer ever clearer via the technology. Maybe it's just wishful thinking, but. You know, I think it's related.

Speaker 5: I I think certainly the in the accelerationist the the rapidity this the the speed up of time in in many ways and the the the technology is is part of that the whole look at texting look at the the shortening of. Of conversation, of language, of even amount of words used. There's just this. You just don't have time.

Speaker 1: And attention span. And the machine goes faster and faster. We get more. I'm I'm copped to this myself. You get more impatient if you have to wait like 2 seconds. Because the pace of the machine is what dictates that you. Otherwise you know who cares if it's two seconds or not, you know.

Speaker 5: What I mean, there's an expectation that it's instantaneous and it's not. And so then you get repetition. You have to repeat over and over again the same thing. We've done because. You you move too fast for it, and in fact you need to slow down, but there's nothing to do but wait on the machine.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. It seems like it. Well, we were saying how we were wondering what's what's in the air, you know what's? One way to put it, I saw a recent piece about. Op-ed piece about Joan Didion's the white album. And she was talking. I mean, we've all, if we're old enough to have some kind of experience of this, the. What happened in the late 60s, the end of the 60s, end of the movement? She called it snapping that the movement just snapped. But now it's one thing to to recall that perhaps you know the movement of the 60s. It broke down, you know. For whatever reasons came to an end. Now it seems like it's society that's snapping the movement that was, that was serious. I'm not saying it wasn't, but. Maybe something deeper than that is just. Going on and we're trying to, you know, figure. Out what it?

Speaker 5: Is. Yeah. Yeah. I I would throw in there for Joan Didion, that the whole repression, the repressive elements, it certainly was the leading edge of the snapping and and now it's like the. The attempts and the investments and everything is to prevent civilization and society snapping, and so you've got surveillance, you've got massive, you've got, you know, you're chaining people. Essentially the machines you're hooking them up, you're surveilling them. You can, you know, control. It's all about controlling and that's. The control that the repression that came on the 60s, a lot of that was like you just like intense, violent, overt. Assault, you know, and police measures police state kind of stuff, all all kinds of all kinds of BS going on.

Speaker 1: Yeah, that was the other where it was certainly part of it. Central part of it. Well, it's 541-346-0645. We're urging you to call. Yeah, let's see. Alex sent me this. I think it was yesterday from the Center for Humane Technology. Kind of a Ted talk. As I was saying. From the two Co founders of this Center for Humane Technology, it was all about the scary capacities of AI and what what we're seeing. You know, you read about it every single day. You know it can mimic anything, copy anything and predict anything produce and what have you. They even said it's. Belief systems can be machine generated and will. Be so generated very soon. And these are two. Techno cats, I mean they've Co founders. If it sounds like a real, you know, con job of a typical, how do you peddle the high tech stuff? Humane technology? You know, if technology is fine, we just need to make it. A little more human, you know? That's crap. But these these guys just you trying out do each other by saying how, how astoundingly totalizing it is, and taking over everything and they were not cheering it on even though they. Pretty clearly in a big hand in getting it to where it is.

Speaker 5: Well, and a lot of that discussion now, the generative AI and the the whole chat box and the influence is like 2 steps behind. Where, where, where. Were so much tied up in it and talking about it and critiquing it after we're already under under an iron heel of it, the. The belief system, the everything involved in it, is like. Rather mind boggling that here was an article on it. Would you like human interaction with that burger? Fast food chains bring chat bots to the drive drive through. It has been predicted that artificial intelligence will revolutionize computer programming, enable widespread cheating among college students, and possibly even destroy the human race. For now, AI chat bots are still learning the art of taking orders for burgers and fries. Just having that relief of not having to communicate with the customer would be awesome, said the visa bread bread worker in in one of the fast food places. And this talks about the how, how you can really program the chat bots and it's a preferred. Experience the chat bots don't have attitudes. They you know, so it makes it a pleasant experience with with.

Speaker 1: Yeah, no unpleasant humans, you know, no interaction.

Speaker 5: Unpleasant. That's right. They even program them to be more conversational, say things like, you betcha and gotcha. So. So we feel more bonded to them. Is it's all. It's already here and what it what it's doing to us and our human interactions is the plague of loneliness and the homicides and the suicides, the. That that's where you know, these are all, like separate conversations rather than than starting to connect the dots and and.

Speaker 1: Also, just the old capitalist part of it, I think is interesting. Ashley Vance wrote something called when the heavens. On sale. Launching capitalism into space. You know these. If you have a lot of money, you can go into space for. A while, like you know. Elon Musk, all the other entrepreneurs. Yeah, for for millionaires only. And today. Interesting news. Giant news today. In other words, no news that they could. Understand or want to go to the story of the billionaire. Who's probably dead? This Titanic tourist dive.

Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: Probably all over. That's yeah, capitalism. You going to be enormously rich? I think it cost. I don't know. I forget what? It wasn't $1,000,000 but.

Speaker 5: There's a quarter of a million per person for a tourist tourist side of the Titanic.

Speaker 1: Quarter of a minute. Go down to see the rank. Yeah.

Speaker 5: And there's submersible is probably on the bottom of the ocean and unretrievable for what? Cheap thrilled. Not so cheap, not so cheap.

Speaker 1: The cheap techno thrill. So the pieces of it won't even come up to the. Surface of it, huh?

Speaker 5: Have any pieces come up? No, no.

Speaker 1: No, maybe they won't, because the too much pressure on it.

Speaker 5: Or or what I mean I I don't even pretend to understand like.

Speaker 0: Don't know.

Speaker 1: I don't know.

Speaker 5: But it is. It's part of, you know, it's part of those glorious stories that they like to the kid at the bottom of the well or the soccer players stuck in the tunnel, you know, kind of thing. And we'll go in and save them and this one. Like it seems they tread into stories that there is no salvation coming, you know, this is like this is. The amazing technology ride this submersible simply constructed thing that you can sell seats on it to go view the Titanic and you end up dead in in the depths of the ocean. Meeting where? Where is meaning man search for meaning.

Speaker 1: Well, people do on natural things because they there is no meaning. They there is no substance in their lives and so they have to get some kind of a thrill. And if you get enough money, you can. You know there there are various ways to get it through, I guess.

Speaker 5: And but with these competing realities, these virtual realities, these promises of technology and wondrous things we can, you know, we can go down to the bottom of the ocean and look at the Titanic. Killed 1500 people. You know how many years ago? Call call in where was I going with that one?

Speaker 1: Well this. Might be a good time for a music break for about at the half hour. Well, people ponder their telephone calls. Back or on the other side? Did you see anything? I think there was maybe more than one article about this, about the Bill Paul disaster of 1984 for some reason. Isn't quite 40 years anniversary, but the Union Carbide chemical plant explosion killed 30,000. In northern India. Anyway, the point of the article, the reason I they beamed it worth. Dredging up is that the survivors of that have a 27 times greater risk of cancer than other people. So it's an industrial disaster that keeps on giving. I guess it lives on. That's a long time ago.

Speaker 5: It's long time, but the repercussions you know. Cross time that that leads into some of the stuff I have on healthcare because healthcare really is a place where where you're seeing very much in the present that this artificial intelligence and this, this use of computations and and. And extraction or or removal of senses and human input into what? Humanity has always been concerned with caring for the ill or caring for, you know, providing in some way for disease and death, and and in the present day the the There's programming now in in American healthcare systems. Of the the machines that people are connected to for warnings based on like, you know, the machine. Constantly crunching the numbers and will pick up on things and tell the nurse who's at the bedside like warning septic septic were in danger of sepsis. And so you puts forth series of protocols. She's supposed she or he is supposed to implement. And and recent article pointed out that. A lot of times there's disagreement that that there's intuition that there's observation, which is a part of health traditionally, was a part of healthcare that's being somewhat supplemented or imposed by these machines and algorithms doing assessments and requiring humans to. Act in response to machine dictates and and so that's kind of creating. Difficult situations for the individuals in the field on choosing not to respond and following what they see and then being penalized or punished if if the outcomes are not good and and so so. So there's a lot I I would say in many ways. Healthcare is a cutting edge field. Healthcare and education are both kind of cutting edge service industries where. There the the implications and the the real results of adverse results are already taking taking place. So so on that note, I'll, I'll just say in and and this is there's no direct correlation or there's an indirect correlation. Portland, right now, for the first time in something like 2022 years, couple 1000 nurses at Providence are on a 5 day strike in in their contract negotiations. And and I think it in a number of a number of. Industries and all you are seeing more labor unrest and it's being controlled and handled as much as it can be, as it always has been through contract unionism. But but you certainly seeing some some action and interactions by. By people in workplaces that that are are rejecting it and and trying to deal with the changes that are being imposed on them and whether it's, you know, wrapped up in things about staffing or shortage of shortage of people in the labor force or. Other, you know, sound bites of what the issues are, certainly the the. Machine human interface and how much the machines have dictated and changed the nature of work is part and parcel of that.

Speaker 1: Let's the burnout in healthcare too. People are leaving the field. For example, nursing is quite a.

Speaker 5: Lot throughout the whole all the service industries and all the the ability to get I mean that's also use an excuse for why we're bringing in. More and more of these technological systems is certainly the baby boom population. You know, we crested and we're on. We're on the downside. And and there's not enough young people to replace.

Speaker 2: You might be able to find.

Speaker 5: The the the jobs we used to have, they're always talking about nurses, teachers retiring and the shortages in the workplace.

Speaker 0: You know.

Speaker 1: Yeah, we have the numbers and then further down the trail, fewer people demographically.

Speaker 2:

Speaker 1: Right.

Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah. And China, China is another example of that where, you know, you regulated reduced the population and then? What's needed to keep the industry and the systems that have been in process and the number of people existing right now like there's you got a shift in that and who's who's available to to do things the there was an article here about doctors working in the system.

Speaker 0: I don't know. Every step.

Speaker 4: OK.

Speaker 5: More and more than ever going part time.

Speaker 3: What's that?

Speaker 5: The ditch medicines traditional career path hit the road as temporary physicians for hire, and that's some of rejection of the system and alienation from you know what? What used to be seen as getting some meaning beyond your paycheck in.

Speaker 2: I don't know, but you might you might. Might plug this into Google.

Speaker 5: In the work you were doing to kind of just farm yourself out and get the the part time worker because you're just a cog in the system, you know, you just that part of that machine human network delivering a service.

Speaker 0: Good luck it's.

Speaker 2: It's and another fish and try to find it feels. Good. When you find the.

Speaker 0: All right. Thank everybody.

Speaker 1: End of a long non collie. Yeah, that's. That is at the heart of it. I think. I think you're right. Let me stick in just a little bit of background here. The old physical environment. The earth oceans in May, with the warmest on record, 1850s started. Those records. You know when you got your coral reefs dying, the levels rising. Big prediction for the summer heat. On it was 115 in San Angelo in Central Texas yesterday. Northern India, parts of China. The American South record heat. Along with other erratic stuff. Severe stuff. Last Friday in their Pensacola, FL, they got 12 inches of rain in three hours. That seems impossible, but. And the new book Fire Weather, a true story from a hotter world by John Bayard. Quote around the world. Fires are burning. Over longer seasons with greater intensity than at any other time in human history. Today in the New York Times, the Himalayan glaciers, which provide water for about 2 billion people. Melting 65% faster. Than they did from 2010 to 2019. Yeah, the previous decade faster than was estimated. This is from the International Center for Integrated Mountain Development in Nepal. That's a big old thing.

Speaker 5: There was in the Yale Environment 360 an article on how humans have pumped enough groundwater to change the tilt of the Earth and with melting ice caps and resulting changes in mass distributions. The pumping of the groundwater is is another factor that that the change in the. Changing the the axis on which the planet spins.

Speaker 1: Well, how about some Action News here? We I don't think I had time for it last week, pretty much at all. But a whole page for Artemis. We were saying how he's all over the map here and I was hoping I didn't think it would happen, but it's in the mail, his number one of his new scene. Which is. Which is so named plastic and utero, a journal of anti Civilization Anarchy reborn from the compost of wasteland modernity. And he gives credit to Jason Rogers for the subtitle. Anyway, it's out and he was mentioning last week. How to get it at the 32 page initial? Addition. There are now more issues of oak #5, by the way. And just a word to point to Artemis's critique of Bakunin's productionised, him and Hegelianism. At You know central figure, the daddy of anarchism or something and also and maybe you can help me out with that. I only listen to part of it. Uncivilized podcast #26.5. With melatha, this is the second conversation with him. About indigenous autonomy. And the connection between decolonization and anarcho primitivism.

Speaker 5: And a lot of that was talking about his fnu the. What was that for? Three nations union. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: Three nations organizations.

Speaker 5: As a collective body and how to? Include holistic healing for all peoples, all suffering from traumas suffered from separation from the Earth. Full liberation, spiritual, mental, physical, spiritual, spiritual connection to the homeland and and I would say, dovetailing nicely with the the work that Darsha did in, in the, the movie that she's produced. So a lot of that. At studying incorporating living the. With an indigenous world view, understanding what that is is like. Wealthy that. Wealthy field.

Speaker 1: And in practice, recent piece in the CAP times from Madison. Capital of of. Wisconsin local. Water restoration, now working with HO chunk people, stewards of the Madison area lakes for the past 13,000 years. Yeah, looking back before high rises and mega industrial agriculture. That's a positive thing and and another scene, by the way, or actually this is a website, an insurrectionary oriented website called unravel. Was announced just today. To cover things like vandalism, arson, sabotage, and so forth. Yeah, I have. I have kind of fun pointing this out. When all of the Liberals are united in their chorus at the far right, the Neo Nazis are just. Just so awesome and so powerful and so scary and such a incredible threat to so-called democracy, and that every day, almost all day on these liberal news outfits. Well, let's see. On May 28th in Kalamazoo, MI, a drag show was threatened by far right bigots. 4 Creeps showed up versus about 60 defenders. Including Black bloc anarchists. The losers left in a few minutes and. On the 14th and Chico, CA at the Chico LB GT Centre. Two Neo Nazis showed up. And were showed the door. They tried to mess with a pride celebration. Down in Chico, it's pathetic, you know? Don't even don't say stupid things like this is just such a such a powerful, dangerous, violent thing. Now a bunch of creeps who get get their ***** kicked every time they show up. Show me one time they didn't get their. It's kicked. It's just pathetic. You're dreaming about this so-called enemy and you're missing everything that's really important.

Speaker 5: Well, Anne Anne is just part and parcel of electoral politics and the whole whole democratic Republican two party system, democracy, you know, dog and pony show that that that dominates the news as well. And it's like. The the so-called difference between the two, or that there's any choice or any relevance to any of it, it's presented as you know, so black and white and and pick one or the other. And which side are you on? And it's like, hey, two sides of the same thing, you know, give me a break.

Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5: What? What kind of joke? What was that we were talking about before? Where you said something about 2024? It'll be the last election.

Speaker 1: Well, that was those two guys from the Center for Humane Technology, and I didn't quite get the literal the specificity. That what all is included, but I think you know in general they. Were talking about the. The overcoming of everything by the by the techno context. You know the what, what you were just talking about a minute ago and. And what we've discussed quite a bit already, how? The this kind of AI generated stuff is is seizing on all kinds of things and. And I you know.

Speaker 5: AI generated in the whole like, you know, the the man behind the curtain awz. It's kind of like the whole election coming up and the two candidates and the, you know, we're going to challenge, you know, it's going to be chat bots or hanging chads or you know, something where where it's just this. This whole. Magic show of disinformation and irrelevance that that there's any substance to it's like the Antifa being the big threat. You know, the the Nazis being outside their door here or something. And it's like, no, no, the.

Speaker 1: Oh yeah, same stuff. More liberal nonsense.

Speaker 5: The real the real problem and the real danger, is what's sitting right in front of your face. That's screen.

Speaker 1: Yeah, an Artemis brought up of a very profound point. I thought when he answered well, he posed the question. Well, so AI can do all this and create art, maybe in quotes or writes. It writes, novels, plays and so forth and so on. So what does it tell you about all of this symbolic creation? If it can be so easily replaced by a machine? Maybe it was bogus in the 1st place, maybe it was a bad deal at compensation or. You know. Compete compensation consolation prize for losing what we had when it wasn't just the symbolic, when it wasn't just a world of representation on the screens and elsewhere. Maybe that shows how much it was worth. The whole thing was. Was a game that wasn't worth playing. That was a heavy question he raised. I got a little bit, I just don't want to carry this on too long, but just a few. Maybe 3 action reports here. If I could put them in order. Well, this goes back. Quite a ways, but May 7th in Buenos Aires, Argentina. Incendiary attack on a prison bus and on the night of June 4th to the 5th. The very polluting Lafarge cement plant and quarry in Lauzon, which is down near Leon and in southeast France, had its power conduit. Attacked by setting fire to an electricity tower. And on the 6th. In Lyon, even closer to Lyon. Arson, sabotage against rail lines. And ohh one more thing in that. Well, this is southwest France, but major damage. On June 2nd to a. A metro construction site not wanting another. Mass transit. Things such as the one they're fighting in Athens, the the. Metro stop in the Exarchia. Something about mass society that not everyone's in love with.

Speaker 5: So well, I want to put in a little a little plug people might be interested in taking a look at this video. Machines in flames was what you would look up on YouTube and it's a allegedly. It's a documentary. From about a group in the early 80s called Le Clodo, who were into. Basically the the liquidation and subversion of computers, they were computer workers who were active in France, and it's a a documentary, really quite interesting. So a kind of a a Luddite. Knowing Cloudo, we would have been, we would have to be becoming crudo anyway, called machines in flames. We're we're check it out. Kind of interesting cultural piece.

Speaker 4: No. Hmm.

Speaker 1: Love the label? Yeah, love the title. So the. Oh yeah, one more exciting action thing. This was June 8th. In the Koukaki neighborhood of Athens, a commando style strike against. 4 upscale stores and two ATMs. They were hit in support of an anarchist prisoner and actually another anarchist prisoner who's a hunger striker. Yeah, very bold. Missed up the fronts of those. Those hipsters. Well, we may not even get a call tonight, the ministers.

Speaker 5: Not a single call. My goodness. They wanted to give us all the time. Well, let me just throw in a out of the week, a paid advertisement. Leaders of the G7. You've promised to pass to a secured nuclear future. We're ready to go.

Speaker 1: There you go. That's it.

Speaker 5: Basically, next Gen. Energy, a new kind of uranium mining. We believe nuclear power is the lynch linchpin for both global energy security and a net zero future, and that uranium mining can be can better support that future if it's done in a more sustainable and secure way. Saskatchewan, Canada. They got their sights on for some good old. Let's work together to deliver energy security and achieve net zero. So this energy addicted society will go to any means at any lengths. And now we're going to try and revive belief and belief and faith in. Ohh, the nuclear. That's the way to go. It's been so positive. You know, talk to the survivors of Hiroshima.

Speaker 1: There you go. Or, as Warren Churchill puts it to, lung cancer doesn't come from tobacco smoking. It comes from. Uranium in the air. Not during you. What's the other ones? More heinous than that? I can't think of it. No, it's another form of. It's an isotope of of your.

Speaker 5: Of uranium plutonium.

Speaker 1: That's it. Tonium. Just a teeny tiniest fragment. And mess up your lungs, give you cancer.

Speaker 5: I mean and that just just to wrap it up real quick and put in the lithium mining that's needed, you know all that's needed for these so-called ecosystems that are the electrical vehicles that the Democrats love to carry on about, like the destruction in making them the. Environmental costs just in the production, it's all, it's all a scam and a a. The man behind the curtain. His name is Oz.

Speaker 1: And hazardous, too, when those lithium batteries go up in flames. Well, thank you for being here a fun hour.

Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah. All right. Happy solstice. You know, be careful with that, Tilda. The earth has changed too much, so this won't be what it used to be.

Speaker 1: Right. Oh. Uh oh. Well, take care out there. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 5: Take care. See you next time.



"Who's Joking?" by JZ. The Joker (2019) - 24 carat nihilism. Death of Ted K, Unabomber relevance in a violent technoscape. (Indigenous) kids survive 40 days in Columbian jungle. Collapse in the heat. Trump sideshow. Resistance briefs. The Machine advances, occupying more of what was once intimacy. Chatbot 'literacy.' Plastic in Utero zine unveiled. Three calls.

Zerzan: You've been listening to quack smack on KWVA. If you miss any portion of the show or just want to listen again, you can find the full show recordings online at KWVA Plus, we're on Twitter at kW, a sports. Join us again for our next episode tomorrow at 6:00 PM, right here on KWVA Eugene 88.1 FM.

Carl: Good evening. It is 7:00 o'clock. You are listening to KWVA. Eugene. It is time for anarchy radio. That's right. Anarchy radio.

Zerzan: The views expressed on this program are not necessarily the views of kwva radio or the associated students of the University of Oregon. Anarchy Radio is an editorial collage providing analysis and opinions of John Zerzan and the community at large.

Carl: See, I told you. It's anarchy radio. John and I are going to get all situated. Phone number is 541-346-0645. And we have music from Heinz to get us motivated.

Zerzan: June 13th. Anarchy radio. Yes Sery, thank you. Well, just talking about this with Karl a little bit the Joker. I'm willing to bet that the number of you folks. Who gets the show? Probably watch that movie 2019 movie The Joker. Well, I was kind of surfing around. I saw the Denver Nuggets versus the Miami Heat, the NBA Basketball Finals. And you know their star, the nugget, the Nugget star. Nikola Djokovic. Fantastic player. All pro center called the Joker because the 1st 3 letters of his last name are Jay. OK for one thing. And so he's routinely referred to as the Joker. Anyway, I saw some of that, and there was this guy in the stands dressed as the Joker, not the hoopster. Mind you, but the character in the movie. And I was just jolted by that because I was pretty blown away by that movie. The acting for one thing, but it was just such a 24 carat take on nihilism. Guy who was worked as a clown, you know, kind of. Low paid gig worker, you know, was a clown for kids, parties and so forth. Anyway, he's right on the verge of madness. He's given to hysterical laughter quite inappropriately, almost every time. What's going on? The backdrop for the movie is that everything is going downhill in a hurry. And it's harder on him. He gets beat up in the opening scene of the movie, for example, and society's kind of crumbling. And so it’s kind of a madness motif society wise, as well As for Arthur, the main character. Anyway, this is just a lead up I just wrote a short thing. Called who's joking? And I’ve kind of given it quite a bit away already, but I'll just run through it anyway. The Denver Nuggets All Star Center Nikola Jokic is called the Joker. As I watched a bit of the NBA playoff finals, Denver versus Miami, another Joker came to mind. A fan sported the clown makeup of the protagonists of the 2019. Movie The joke. But if adult to have been reminded of that very nihilist figure, especially in the context of a basketball game, the movie powerfully portrayed Arthur's plight, his violent escape from convention into madness in a ruinous collapsing society. The Joker, the film not the Hoopster, is a very potent reminder of the real situation. We are in the calamity of eco collapse, the mental health crisis, especially among youth. Trumpist populism, the rising suicide braid, mass shootings and drug scourge, et cetera, et cetera. A pretty endless ensemble of pathological symptoms of decaying civilization. Arthur is not a quote political character in the movie. I think that gives him an even stronger, more telling significance. In the final scene. The crowd as he's being taken to jail. Hails him as a hero for revealing the violence he's committed. So in that ending, one could discern a kind of political point, and overall one is lender led to ponder the depth of our predicament in reality. In the 1980s, Donna Haraway revealed her Cyborg, A projected avatar of quote, transgressive boundaries. And a potent fusion between nature and artifice. That is. When we meld human and machine, gender will be transcended. No more patriarchy. But here we are in the barren techno verse, certainly no closer to the end of gender inequality, one more healthy techno pipe dream. Getting back to the Joker, Arthur's self destruction is not a way forward. Rewilding A refusal of this techno landscape, however, just might be glimpsed or hinted at. In his break with society. By the way, there were nine people shot. In Denver, following the Nuggets win last night. Brings it all back together, I guess. And let's see, by the way, 541-346-0645. Lots of stuff to talk about tonight, including of course. The techno craziness of the week. Well, one major thing. And I'm grateful for quite a number of people who told me about this early Saturday morning. The death of Ted Kaczynski. At the federal. Prison hospital in North Carolina. He'd been diagnosed as a. A terminal cancer case about two years ago, and he was there, transferred from the Supermax prison in Colorado. Over a year and a half, so. It wasn't a surprise to people who knew that he was. You know, living as long as he did. Sort of predictably I guess. Yesterday it was a very long piece. In the business section. The obituaries section. Of the New York Times, Theodore J Kaczynski, boy genius, turned Unabomber, dies at 81. You think they would have had time to do a more coherent job as if that's the job of the New York Times in the 1st place, but. It's it covers a lot, but it kind of wanders all over the place. In terms of his history, it's, you know, that's what an obituary usually is, of kind of a thumbnail history and. You know what is the significance of this person? Even mentioned by the way anti SIV. That's in quotes anti servena. In a strange kind of unexplained way. Well, the piece. By one Alex Traub, in part is talking about the influence of Kaczynski. And it's 35,000 word, so-called Manifesto Industrial Society and its future. It’s sort of. Wonders here and there. Here's the part that's. Well, he's trying to make sense of it all. I guess and. It's kind of superficial, he, he says of his critique of technological society. Well, he doesn't really even talk about the Internet. Well, for one thing, he wrote it in the 70s, basically well before the Internet. So, and it's pitched at a deeper level than that. Come on, you know, have you ever heard of Jacque? Well, he never heard of the Internet either. And yet. He had some very, very basic tell. Insights as to what is technological society and how it works. And how really nothing escapes it? Now in the 50s. You know, Speaking of pre cyberspace and all that, and here's one little part. As he's trying to figure out. What is the connection? What do people make sense of this or not? He says this is a quote. More curious was the way a variety of law abiding Americans developed an interest in the same line of thought. Yeah, that's kind of telling. There is now especially a. Quite a strong anti tech current I would think. We all are forced to use it. I mean, there's no. Safe Island from it at the moment, that's for sure, but. Yeah, he goes on to refer to people. Especially the young referred to Uncle Ted. So I don't know it just here and there it's you sort of scratching your head at the end of it if you didn't know anything about it to begin with, I guess. Well, another staple of the week. For example, late Saturday night this past weekend in Syracuse, NY, 13 injured in a spree of shooting, stabbings and car collisions. At a quote chaotic mass gathering. Six shot outside a Houston nightclub. At the same time. And of course, pigs are pigs are killing more people, especially blacks, including black children. Another staple. And Thursday night in southeast France, 6 stabbed at a park, 4 kids critically wounded, a nation in shock. It doesn't often happen in France. And we have a color right. Todd, how are you?

Caller #1: Hey, hey, John. I wanted to jump in here just for a moment to mention you were talking about Uncle Ted and I am an arts writer, and I've been seeing that young people almost on the right, more on kind of the avant-garde. Right. The Alt right are very obsessed with Ted Kaczynski. Because of his comments about leftism, oddly enough, even as much as you know he has that whole section of. The thing about leftism. But it's interesting that he's become kind of this for young people. This figure that who, whose conclusions they accept in a very cynical way. Among intellectuals, very young intellectuals, they kind of accept it, and they're they're embracing this, what they call accelerationism, which is this concession to technological acceleration, with the hope that AI will provide some transcendence.

Zerzan: Yeah, yeah, that's true.

Caller #1: But there's obviously a. Lot of foolishness in that, but anyway I. Just wanted to mention that Ted Kaczynski. Was surprisingly current among right wing intellectuals, and they've been doing a lot of memes and. Things about him.

Zerzan: Yeah, thanks for that. Thanks very much. Well, you know, I think there’s a fairly obvious misunderstanding there. I mean the. Industrial society's future starts with this fairly long assault on the left, and leftism and how. It's so much a question of domestication. Well, that's not a word. He uses but. You know? Uh. Making people more conformist. It's just another part of that whole thing. And you know, first I was a little put off by that. I thought that was detracting from what he was about to get into, which was technology. Not is. That take on the left. I was. I was mistaken about that and I realized. Pet among kids, I was starting to notice. Oh, they got that they weren't fronted off by that. But you know it's. Another part of that one might say, I noticed that You know a bunch of stuff on their chat board since the weekend. Really saying the same thing. Well, he was. And this critique of the left and the same thing with the folks who are the contemptuous, they criticize the left, therefore they must. Be right wing. No, that's absurd. I'm there. I'm anti left. I'm certainly no right winger, you know, that's just a dumb jump into this binarism that doesn't obtain. You know, it just. Doesn't and. People on the right, I mean, they're no brighter than. Other people, shall we say, and. You know, so that that's not surprising, I guess. You know, in celebrity culture. People try to grab onto anything and you know, he was pretty. Anti left, that's for sure. Kazinski was and. You know, and I and I hate to say this, but I think also. As his life went on, some of the not so bright parts of that came out too, and I'm talking about now. I'm maybe a little off the subject, but he was not anti civilization.

Caller #1: Yeah. No, definitely. You know, I there was a reading of his work again on there's this, you know, Twitter spaces. You can have these gatherings online and people did a full reading of the work with about 100 people listening to the whole, his whole so-called manifesto, as you said. And it was striking how he is he doesn't really have a precise thing that he wants to go back to. You know, he talks about industrial. But he doesn't. He doesn't use terminology about civilization, and so I think it's true that his criticism is not very far, and that's why I think he gets confused in trying to resurrect this political revolution. You know, he's very strategic in this. You know, cadres that he wants to advance, but without a coherent plan, I think it kind of falls flat. Because he doesn't get into the fundamental technological problem as much as he should.

Zerzan: Right, I totally agree. And just strategically, I mean it’s very instrumental and. You know, it's not very cool politically. I mean, Derrick Jensen comes to mind along with the same lines. He doesn't know much political history, so he grabs puts in anything he can think of and some of that is straight up backward. Its authoritarian. Vanguard is kind of stuff. And, you know, it's kind of embarrassing that would be. Anybody's model of liberation, but he doesn't mind because he's only thinking about technology. Only think about the way technology does its work, and so anything that you know is handy. Maybe he just uses it without, you know, without much background in.

Caller #1: It in terms of strategy and kind of the politics of the future. Have you been getting calls from the press about his death that any, I mean, I'm curious. Because you know, if if Kaczynski, if people sort of accept a lot of Kaczynski's press premises, that's what people are saying. But they don't agree with his strategy. You would think there would be more discussion of what the strategy. Should be. You know what I mean, people you know a lot. I keep hearing people say, well, he was right, but he shouldn't have killed people. But they never have any solutions themselves.

Zerzan: Was really curious. I was kind of expecting a bunch of media stuff, but there wasn't any to me. Anyway, there wasn't any. I didn't get any. Emails or calls about it and you know, yeah. And some people said, well, you got to be ready for the media nonsense and everything. But you know, maybe what's worse is there wasn't any. I mean, not that so wonderful to be. Doing the media stuff all the time, but no, it's like.

Caller #1: Right. As a cultural moment, yeah, they weren't prepared. They don't. They're not prepared. The mainstream to even have a discussion of what he meant. Well, it's.

Zerzan: Right. Right. That's, that's disappointing that don't get to bring it up at all. It's just a one day wonder kind of a thing. Well, it's not. It's still conceivable there will be something, but. I haven't seen anything yet.

Caller #1: Well, and it's also interesting because as I said, I think it's occurring over this. What's about to be a backlash against this artificial. I think you're for the first time seeing it's not very defined yet, but you're seeing this grassroots anger about what artificial intelligence is going to mean for people's lives.

Zerzan: Oh, I think you're so right. And that was another somebody I was in touch with said what a juxtaposition in the business section. You got all the latest stuff on the onslaught of chat, chat bots and all the AI stuff and. All the news and claims and everything. And then you turn the page and there is the critique of technology, wouldn't they wouldn't occur to somebody to join the two like like well, was he right? I mean, what? What did he have to say about this? And does it bear on this juggernaut of now?

Caller #1: Right.

Zerzan: AI is doing everything.

Caller #1: So they, yeah, they refused to consider his legacy. That's what I've noticed and they want to. That's why I think the cultural battle is important because some people, what I was hearing a lot is people trying to turn him into a freak. You know, they're trying to say that he was taught, you know, MK Ultra. You know, there's conspiracy theories about that, that he was beaten as a child, that he was transsexual, if you can believe it, even that weird right wing political thing is getting into him. So you know they are trying to just turn him into. A freak so. People don't consider his, you know, righteous anger.

Zerzan: Yeah, well, that's true from the very beginning in the 90s, that's what they were doing. All of these different variations on the same theme that he was just twisted and. You know, he he was kept from his parents as a tiny infant. And so then he was warped for the rest of his life, ignoring the whole thrust of his arguments in in the so-called manifesto. But yeah, and then now they dust that off, you know, and just and the worst of the mainstream stuff. Is well, he terrorized America. He murdered all these innocent people. I mean, just the most gross. Stuff you know and when I was getting that question back in those days and they wanted they wanted anarchist to say, oh, I'm delighted that people send bombs in the mail. What a great idea, I said. No, I don't endorse, endorse that at all. But are those people so innocent? That got his wraths think about that, maybe.

Caller #1: Right. And then that's like the word Churchill argument after 911, you know, similar people sort of freaked out over this. People don't allow for systemic criticism, as you say anymore.

Zerzan: Right, right, right.

Caller #1: Like, it's very dangerous.

Zerzan: Yeah, maybe, maybe less and less, but I think you're right too to say that there's this backlash. Which is fairly obvious. You know, there are people that they don't, they don't only fear the latest stuff, but they hate. It I mean you know.

Caller #1: And they're willing to act, you know, I mean, you know, there's the writers strike as well. You have the writer strike, which is partially about AI. You have the in Hollywood. You've got the AI artist and an uproar. I think you'll have all these programmers too. You know who are going to who are losing their jobs.

Zerzan: Sure, music, folks.

Caller #1: Music, yeah.

Zerzan: Novelist name, you know, you name it.

Caller #1: Novelists, yeah. And then they're saying all these people, you know, imagine all these kids who are in school for 10 years to study, you know, translation and or, you know, some kind of English, you know, a lot of these people, just their lives are just. Taken away from them with this. So anyway, but anyway it's been I'm sure I'm anxious to hear more. Of your thoughts about Kaczynski? I think it's a cultural moment and that's always. What I've always loved about your work at. Least is that it? Is trying to help people envision how to move forward and stories and the culture is important for that. I think Ted was a part of people's lives, you know, even if they disagree with him politically.

Zerzan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll put thanks for calling, Ted.

Caller #1: Thank you. Thank you.

Zerzan: Todd, I'm sorry. Take care. Bye.

Zerzan: Well, I don't. Know if I have much more to say about. About Ted Kaczynski, but feel free to call about it and we'll see as we proceed. You know, one big story. Of interest, these four kids that were found in the jungle of southern Colombia after 40 days, a big gun. You know, stories like that. The child falls into. Well, they can't get him out. And it goes on and on and on. Or the minors or whatever. But anyway. The point? This, and it wasn't totally lost on people, I don't think. But they were fine. They were indigenous, get it? They were at home in nature, not cut off from it, and conditioned to fear it, I got a really interesting. Message from somebody out of the country. Someone I know named Ernesto let me quote a little bit from that. He says of course, the show of the media has already started and they branded the jungle as quote, dangerous, hostile, malignant. Being very curious, because those same media and other press sections. Invite the protection of the Amazon jungle. Contradiction or intentional ill will. The surviving children who are found are indigenous in their vital traditional training. Allow them not to feel like strangers in the jungle, which would generate an urgent question for all rational education systems. Do we have to prepare people to live on Earth? We are on or continued training the spurious stem skills to go to Mars. Anyway, Ernesto. He did very well, I think. Yeah, it's like it reminds me of that big tsunami at the end of 2004. And the fact that non domesticated. Beings, human and non human, survived. Quite nicely. All of the deaths were domesticated people or other domesticated species. Straight up, you know, as simple as that. Well, another piece of the collapse was revealed. During the week, I would say early Sunday morning, the tanker truck. In Northeast Philadelphia, Industrial section of the I-95 Freeway. Yeah, this burned up. Quite brightly and cause the stretch of the freeway to collapse. The I-95 is a major East Coast freeway. It'll be closed for months. More facets of the general collapse. And let's see. I don't know if I'll get to all this stuff, but anyway, the we're all ready in fire season. All this stuff about fires in Canada impacting especially the northeastern part of the US. Rising heat could make orange skies ordinary front page piece in the New York Times on June 10th. Quote a greater likelihood of extremes, sometimes catastrophic weather all over the world. That's a quote. In Puerto Rico last week. Heat index 125 degrees. And in the LA Times today. An article called off the charts or part of it said off the charts the North Atlantic Ocean. Is a full 2 degrees warmer than it was 40 years ago. And yes, El Nino is just starting up now, which will make that worse. Thousands of dead fish washed up on Texas Gulf Shores. Another case of hypoxia. A dead zone, little or no oxygen. Is the Gulf of Mexico becoming a Dead Sea while part of it is already? And more and more. Race horses sacrifice to the spectator, sport of horse racing. Belmont Park, for example. Most lately. Well, let's see. I hope we hear from Artemis. Because I want to hear more about his new scene issue issue #1. Is about to come out and really looking forward to that. You know these perspectives that there's so many ways of changing the subject or avoiding the subject or just drowning it out. For instance today. All Trump, all the time you could sit there and stare at TV. You could see him leaving his resort to go to a. To his plane and then a motorcade just endless, endless trivia. And you do have a caller here, I think. And you know all about the big Danger Republic is hanging by a thread. Such a threat. Well, there was nothing nobody showed up. Virtually nobody showed up and supported Trump in Miami. Just like. Two months ago in New York, that's kind of a joke anyway.

Carl: Somebody called Artemis.

Zerzan: Oh, I think I've heard the name. Hello there. Hi there.

Artemis: Hey, how are you?

Zerzan: Good. Good. Hoping you'd call.

Artemis: Yeah, I was. I was thinking I was going to wait for the music break because we're about that time, but then. you know, you said my name, so here I am.

Zerzan: Good, good.

Artemis: So first thing before I talked about the scene, I got two things I want to touch on real quick. First thing, of course, is about Ted, and this popped up is that apparently there's reports that he actually he might have killed himself in his cell. And even the Wikipedia page refers to it as his cause of death as suicide.

Zerzan: Well, you know, maybe that's hard to sort out if you if you're terminally, you could check out and you're you know it’s suicide, but it's also you're at the end of the end of your.

Caller #1: And you know.

Zerzan: Rope anyway, I mean. In a sense, it's, you know, hard to distinguish, I suppose.

Artemis: And I had some people say, oh, I can't imagine him doing that. But from my understanding, and it could be wrong is that when he was first incarcerated, maybe during trial, he might have tried to kill himself. I can't remember if that's true or not, but I was like, well, I mean, you already tried once. I mean and. Then two and two years, basically with terminal. Cancer. I mean, come on.

Zerzan: Yeah, yeah.

Artemis: It's not that hard. It's not without it's not beyond the realm of belief. But then I read that I was like, wow, I mean, that's wrong because I know some people were writing him and he just stopped when his health got so bad, you know? And that's his contact with the outside world, that it's.

Zerzan: And he did tell at least one person that he wouldn't be around much longer to go forth, you know, to to.

Artemis: I don't put. It past them.

Zerzan: Push on with things he did in fact try to kill himself. Back in the very end of 97 early 1998, when he found out. I was actually the one who told him that his lawyers were lying to him, had been for months. You know, the insanity defense. Everybody knew that's what they were pursuing, but he wasn't in the courtroom when they did that. So he he was.

Artemis: Right.

Zerzan: Maybe you didn't really wanna know. I, you know, I wouldn't know, but. Yeah, he tried to hang himself that night because that was the very last thing he wanted is to be portrayed as. Obviously so anyway.

Artemis: Yeah, yeah. And then the second thing before the disease, because I don't want to make this all about me is I was checking anarchy news today and your name popped up in an article I was reading by Felipe Correa attribute pronouncing that wrong. He's a Brazilian academic and anarchist who wrote a historiography. So, like, basically an analysis of history. Or historical write INS called Black Flag read discussing the anarchism and I want to read a very short section of it. He's basically talking about like how historians historically misunderstand or mislabel anarchists. And he says another similarly similarly decontextualized technique used by past historians is listening adherence based on their self identification as anarchists, rather than identifying adherence based on the ideas and practices of which they advanced. Another example is founded in Mickey's study, which, although not absolutist, and his assessment. Includes individualists such as Brown, Benjamin Tucker, or the newspaper Anarchy, a Journal of Desire arms, as well as primitivists such as John Zerzan and newspaper green Anarchy. However, beyond self identifying as anarchists, these authors and publications do not have much in common with the mainline historical anarchist tradition.

Zerzan: Right. Oh, I know. I see. I didn't know about that.

Artemis: And of course he's one of those. He's like a platformist organization organization organization, where he's like, oh, you know, you're not like me. I'm still stuck in the 19th century. Right.

Zerzan: Yeah, we want to steal it.

Artemis: Sorry, you know. As John Moore said, there is the first first wave anarchism and 2nd wave anarchism. You know, kind of divided by the Spanish Civil War and these people can't get out of the fact that. Socialism isn't the answer, and they're stuck in the labor struggle. You know, they have an advanced theory by any regard, so they think anyone who has is not a real anarchist, you know.

Zerzan: It's embarrassing. It's that to be 2023. Hello. Anyway, it's. Yeah, that that's sort of revealing the piece, yeah.

Artemis: So I just, I read that I was like, you know, it's just funny that they think anarchism is this revolutionary, living, breathing system. But then they keep it as the same thing Bakunin was writing, you know, basically, it's just, it's ridiculous. But I guess for the scene, plastic and utero. Journal of anti Save Anarchy Reborn from the compost to wasteland modernity. It is a mouthful. I know. I've had people tell me that, but that's partially kind of the joke, you know, because it was plastic and utero and I was writing the Jason Rogers for those that are familiar. And I was like, how do I make it like identifiable. And that was her suggestion. The Nice long subtact subtitle.

Zerzan: Right.

Artemis: And she was like, you don't have to use the whole thing. And I was like, oh, but that's too good. Like, that's so on. Point just yeah. You know, so the I came, you know? So it's basically Jason's idea for the subtitle, but basically it will come out sometime next week. I'm starting to take orders, but I'm trying to get a PO Box. However the local post office is only open 3 hours a day or something like. That and so I'm trying to get in and I try to use their online portal and it doesn't work. So classic automating things doesn't really work, so I'm waiting on the PO Box. Hopefully sometime this weekend I can get in there. And do that. It's $3 a copy. If those people are interested cuz I can call in again when that is happening. If people want to contact me online, my e-mail is

Zerzan: Yeah, they should get in touch. We can't. We can't tell people to buy stuff, but we can pass on the information for sure.

Artemis: Yeah, if you're interested in talking to me about anything, you know, that can be that. And I want to say I appreciate, you know, you writing for it because I might have mentioned this before, but when I tell people, oh, I'm putting this scene together, they're like, that's close. Oh, yeah, like John's right before it. Jason Rogers. Steve Kirk. I've written for it, though. Oh, that's so great. How did you do? Did you get? Him to do. That I was like. I asked them. You know. Funny thing that if you treat people like human beings and you. Reach out and talk to. Things happen, but you know, I think it's really cool and some people that have contributed who are first time writers, they're they're, like excited to know, like, Oh my writing will be next to Johns or Steves or whoever, you know.

Zerzan: Oh, it's great. First time people, that's wonderful.

Artemis: Yeah. And I mean that was my goal is that you know, it's nice to have quote UN quote old blood people names that are recognizable because people might be more willing to get it if that's the case. But also getting people who have new ideas. For example, my friend style, who's a primitivist, who lives not far from me, wrote a piece about. Free time and you know there's the whole age-old. Like, do we really have free time? Right. But then connects it to what's called Doom. Scrolling right when people just scroll endlessly on their phones, that's not free time.

Zerzan: Right, right.

Artemis: That's not a hobby. that’s that's not, that's. You know, nuking your brain, you know, you're turning your brain. Off is that is that leisure?

Zerzan: Right, you. You might remember Dax, the student at EU of O here who started the you know, that's that he that was he was saying that too in in his way.

Artemis: Yeah, what he said is, you know, I think I'd start with me. I think about that a lot is his idea of are you making new memories authentic memories or are you? Just sitting around.

Zerzan: Yeah, yeah.

Artemis: You know. And Jason Rogers has talked about and I've had to look this up because it's true people have less and less hobbies in it. It just becomes primarily consumption of media. You know, and how dangerous that is, because I think about that, you know, in my students, in my, in my peers. It's like, what do you do for fun? They're like, oh, you know, like, I watched kids. Chuck, I'm like, OK, something other than that and I don't want to be like the old grumpy person, this like, get off your phone, you know?

Zerzan: But yeah, less of everything, though, like less dating.

Artemis: But it's like.

Zerzan: That was some decks talked about too. You know, how I was quite unaware of it. You know that it works out that there's less. Dating, you know, just because you it's all online and the way it works out is that works against it. You know, another anti social thing about social media.

Artemis: Yeah, it it's, it's disheartening, you know, I mean, I work right now with some environmental environmental work during my during the summer, awesome teaching and everyone's like, oh, like if you want to identify this plant, you can use this app I'm like. I could, but I won't. So like, why not? I was like, I just feel like we talk about it or like use a guide or bring someone out that knows it, like, have a conversation about what these plants may be or what this represents. Why do I have? To use an app for it.

Zerzan: Yeah, yeah.

Artemis: And that’s actually really much the digitization of like conservation or preservation is actually really off putting because there's no connection. There's more and more mediation even between people working with nature.

Zerzan: Yeah, yeah.

Artemis: You know which. Is you lose an element. People don't seem to get that there's dehumanizing or whatever. It's immediately, you know, purely that's what it is.

Zerzan: And what, what do you get at the end of it is, you know, one reads. About these well, these different languages, more and more isolated groups and their languages are dying. You know, traditional stuff and Oh well, the answer is to digitize everything. Yeah, that's certainly the way that a living language. Stays alive. You know that? No, they can't even. I mean, have you noticed what's you know, what's the fruit of all this kind of? Anyway, yeah, it is. It's kind of madding. But, and, you know, people are pushed in that direction and everything militates to go that way. You know, that's the solution. It's always a technical solution.

Artemis: And I think, you know, Jerry Mander kind of touched on this and I actually. Quote him on the back cover of plastic and utero is his idea of like the artificial is when our entire environment is artificial and everything looks for that lens. All you know is what other people have. Told you.

Artemis: And by people it means like a very. Small click of people. Have designed a new reality. And so when you design language or when you're preserving languages through technology, you're preserving nature, right quote UN quote. Preserving it right. What you're doing is you're looking at it. You're filtering it through the technological lens. Are you preserving something?

Zerzan: Hmm yeah.

Artemis: Is that preservation because all you're doing is transforming it into another medium of control?

Zerzan: Yeah, yeah.

Artemis: Right. And people don't seem to be able to grasp that as it's like, well, it's Democratic is, is technology democratic? I mean, are we at the point where we're going to accept? Cell phones or democratic, you know, even even my non radical liberals should be able to admit that's not true.

Zerzan: Yeah, it’s quite, it's not a secret.

Artemis: Right. So I'll let you go. But for those again, those are interested. I also have a podcast on civilized we just uploaded a new video today in an interview with an indigenous activist Malasa with his organization the First Nations. Union. That's two parts that will come out came out today and then later this week and again, if anyone's interested, you can reach out to. I plan to do a second edition probably sometime late this year, so people are interested in contributing. They can e-mail me or when I get the PO Box you can send me any copies of any writing or artwork or letters. Anything that doesn't go tick, tick, tick will be acceptable for my PO Box.

Zerzan: Good, good. I can jump on #2. Well, thank you for calling super.

Artemis: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for. Thank you. For platforming, John, I appreciate it.

Zerzan: Ohh my pleasure.

Artemis: Have a great one.

Zerzan: You too. Well, there was a I guess I could have to sort through the assign the ratings here to find out the most. Telling thing, but one thing today. There was a piece about medicine. Health and the I think the beginning of this pointed out that about 75% of Americans say that their doctor isn't compassionate. So here's the article in today's New York Times AIS helping hand. And the solution? You don't have to guess, you already know the machine is empathetic, compassionate. It's not about the doctors becoming more compassionate. And why aren't they compassionate? Not none of that stuff? No, no. It's AI's helping hand. That's just. It should be a parody, but it's not. It's just straight up. What it is, you know, they're not hiding it and they're celebrating it. And that's just so grotesque. Yeah, well, human. Anyway, the point is obvious. And a little bit more on Apples vision Pro. Much noise about that late last week, there was a piece that was so ideological it just you could cut it with a knife or something. Their aim is to quote shift the way we look at technology and the role it plays in our lives. In other words, it's not a tool. You know this dumb always repeated thing. It's just a tool. Depends on what you do with it. It's neutral. It's just a discrete tool. No, it's not. It's it. Tell you it's ideological. This headset shifts the whole way. We look at it and technology in our lives. You know, straight up it's just it's amazing. It's they're not hiding anything. I don't know yet. In parallel fashion, all the lies continue, even if they're ridiculous. Hello there.

Caller #3: Hello I'm so I’ve been listening to your show for a little while.

Zerzan: Hi, thanks for calling.

Caller #3: Now and then, I figured since last episode was rather barren in terms of calls, I would call in today. But so you were talking a little bit earlier with your first caller about. Youth and youth politics, I guess sort of tangentially, but I was just wondering if you. So I am kind of I am definitely in. I am in the sort of milieu of the anti civilization. Politics, if you will, and I was wondering. If you had any sort of advice or you know what? What young people who are? Sort of coming into that same. Stratosphere of ideas. You know, we should what we could be. Doing to sort of. Build the cultural climate I guess of. Of critique of technology, critique of civilization, and you know, any sort of authors or organizations or actions you would. Point us to.

Zerzan: Well, I think the basic thing is just to speak up about it. It’s very difficult when you feel like. the whole space, the whole oxygen, whatever you call it. As is occupied by the technology and the technological alternative to anything that you want to change, or you know the needs doing. You know lots of ways to do that. I think the literature on the subject is available. You can. You can find that without too much trouble varieties of that. You know. Critiques of technology and starting well, you know, we're just talking about Kaczynski. We had our differences, but I continue to recommend the technological society, the Industrial Society, excuse me and its future. I think it's a very cogent piece and it's not hard to read. It's not an academically written thing and it's kind of modest, actually in its style. So I think it's accessible, you know. I don't know if I'd recommend so much, what he drew on quite a lot. Jackie Wells, the technological society. Which is available in English since the 60s, but it's kind of hard going. It's kind of the abstract French style in English, so it's not. It's not that easy as a. As an intro, I'd say, although it's very worthwhile. But just, you know, just. To try to. If we can raise our voices, if we can interject that into conversations of different kinds and. You know lots of ways to do that. You know, letters to the editor or call in to a show or. Start your own show or your own podcast. You know, that sort of thing. It takes some. You know, you gotta overcome a certain amount of inertia, you know, because we know what we're up against. The whole chorus of all this stuff is. You know it’s so it makes it hard going, but. As as Collins have said, there is something going on I think in terms of antipathy that's there and can be tapped into and you know. Encouraged so. Yeah, that's a very general. Thing David. You know, I think it's just a matter of trying to do it. And you know then when you do it, then you can maybe more at ease doing it and better at doing it. And you know, just find out what happens.

Caller #3: Yeah. Thank you. I guess that's kind of all I had to call in for today. I just want to say thank you to for, you know, putting on this show. It's a great resource to have out there and thanks to Artemis and the other people who call into the show regularly and have their own stuff that they put out, it’s really it's, it's good to have that. Stuff out there.

Zerzan: Great to hear from you, Nico. Thanks for calling. Well, I was just mentioning some of the more recent claims. I don't know what more to say about them. They speak. They speak for themselves. Here's something from. Well, it's piece in the New York Times. This past Saturday, June 10th. It's called students learn the Abcs of AI. Well, it doesn't tell you too much. Well, but what it's about is. This is promoting quote, a new kind of literacy. When you push a button in the chat bot does it for you. I mean, how is that literate? I mean, the whole question of literacy and numeracy and all that. Quite interesting. In its own right, but. You know just. To pause for a minute on that level of. Whether it's. Literate or illiterate? I think it's kind of obvious which one it is. And here was a piece of. About classical music composition and something new, at least I think it's new called Rave Real Time Audio variational auto encoder. That's a mouthful. AI input into classical music is what this is all about. This points out something kind of. Pedestrian, I guess, but maybe it's worth quoting. At the end of the piece, this is in the Sunday New York Times. Two days ago. It is almost impossible to create something computationally powerful without the assistance of a huge technologically advanced institute or corporation. Yeah, that’s kind of obvious, but kind of gives it away too, isn't it? It really does that, I mean. That's what you're buying into. That's what it's really about. Bottom line, a huge technologically advanced institute institution or corporation. Or civilization. Yeah, maybe an obvious point, but interesting that it comes out. And uh, let's see the verge. On Friday, at a piece about a. An indie book cover contest. Sci-fi and fantasy department type books. Well, it killed off the contest because the chat bought 1, so they kind of canceled the whole thing. In fact, the piece is called how AI killed an indie book cover contest. Yeah, you know more of the. Same kind of stuff. And here's some stuff just from today. Just from Tuesday the 13th, this is from Vice. A bit about virtual sports betting. Well, yeah, it's virtual. I mean, this is kind of obvious too, I guess. Like betting on. Horses that aren't real horses, you start to wonder, what are we totally adrift from actual? Reality and let's see this is I think this. Is from wired. Just a little while ago today, as new Beatles record will be out this year. Thanks to AI. This is this isn't really a chatbot creation. I mean it isn't just cooked up from a AI machine learning, but. But it's sort of that it's apparently. They've got some. Kind of unusable stuff from John Lennon, his voice. It's being remastered by artificial intelligence. And I don't know, it's not. It isn't the most horrible example I guess, but Paul McCartney said that it's scary, but exciting because it's the future. Well, the future or what? I mean, if they're going to. Rescue some stuff that otherwise we wouldn't get to hear, OK. You know, it's hard to think.

Carl: It's not, he also said. We never finished that song because George Harrison didn't like it and The Beatles was a democracy.

Zerzan: Is that right?

Carl: Yes, that's what he said.

Zerzan: Oh, no kidding.

Carl: And I'm like, huh?

Zerzan: Didn't know that. Wow, I didn't catch that part.

Carl: So, like what does George Harrison think about this now?

Zerzan: Wow, that's crazy. Well, this was from wired to day. The CEO of Microsoft at Satya Nadella. Says he can't imagine life without AI. Even if it's the last thing invented, in other words, and it's the end of life. Ohh geez. Well, I've got some. That's some action stuff, but I think I'm going to save this. It might have been good to use it because it's a little bit uplifting. Compared to some of this stuff, but. Here's one more getting back to a little bit more environmental stuff. National Geographic today at a piece about Rome. You know the Eternal city. Well, it may not be eternal after all. It's pretty vulnerable in the industrial era, subject to rising sea and flooding. Wasn't built for what's under way now. It's going to sink if techno industrial reality perseveres. See even Rome. Yeah, man, I don't really have time for some of this. More heartening political stuff, but Kathy will be here next week. To Co host this show, we'll get into stuff like that. And so yeah. Really appreciate the three calls tonight. Stay tuned for transcendent phase and. Did you want to?

Zerzan: Go out with that.

Carl: OK, it's all.

Zerzan: Yeah, that would be good.

Carl: It's all cued up.

Zerzan: Oh, cool. Take care out there.

Carl: It was queued up. It went to sleep.



Death of a friend. Fires, train derailments, apt. collapses. Lonely reality,wages of grief. Uninsurable housing, racehorse death culture. Apple's Vision Pro roll-out, as AI combats thought. Cloud data storage centers spread like the stinknet weed that is devouring the Sonoran desert. More from The Contemptuous, LBC announces end. Stay tuned for Human Rewilding in the 21st Century: Why Anthropologists Fail. Action reports.

Speaker 1: The into PK Oregon Ducks baseball and the Super Angels night Gretzky, Walter Lewis, Jack Lazarus here on the list Tuesday afternoon. See you tomorrow for crack smack here. On 88.1.

Speaker 2: You've been listening to quack smack on kW VA. If you miss any portion of the show or just want to listen again, you can find the full show recordings online at KWVA Plus, we're on Twitter at kW VA. Sports. Join us again for our next episode tomorrow at 6:00 PM, right here on KWVA Eugene 88.1 FM.

Speaker 3: Well, good evening. You're listening to K WVU, gene, it is.

Speaker 4: Time for anarchy. Radio John and I are in the studio. The number is 5413. 4606. 4/5.

Speaker 3: And with music from Dan Hicks and his hot licks.

Speaker 5: And I've talked to Dad. They say pride, but it's only. I've even got mad now. We must face it. You give. Me a pain.

Speaker 6: I cannot miss you when you won't go away.

Speaker 5: But you won't listen. How can I miss you? And you won't go away. You're never ending presence. Really cramps my style. I dream.

Speaker 6: That it won't.

Speaker 5: Must be the same. First I was attracted. Have you ever heard of the hard to get?

Speaker 6: You always dance.

Speaker 5: How can I? Miss, you and you. Won't go away. I mean it too.

Speaker 7: Anarchy Radio just two weeks from summer solstice, creeping up on US longest day of the year. We had kind of a memorable weekend. I'm trying to refocus from that. Scattering of the ashes of a friend of mine of 40 years. Yeah, he had a breakdown about three years ago and couldn't work, and he was the mainstay. Of his older sister, who is increasingly stricken with dementia. So he was getting to the end of his rope. Facing homelessness. Took his own life. It was a good get together out at the rural. Cemetery up by Crowe, Lorraine. Somewhere southwest to here and. My daughter and her mother visited from California. They were friends of James as well, so it's special to get to see them. Alice continues to recover, almost ready to kick the. Walker, she no longer needs oxygen. She couldn't quite make it out to the scattering of the ashes. It's. It's kind of a hilly. Place out there. But we got together later. OK, let's just jump right on in. And as Carl said, it's 541-346-0645. Well, the big fires in Canada. As global overheating starts to climb further north versus the Big Alberta fires and now? On the other side of. So-called Canada Nova Scotia. Major fires making for some pretty horrible air quality. New York City now has some of the worst air in the world. Because of all the smoke. Trained enrollments in the news, the one in Minnesota in the middle of the week, and of course that was nothing compared to. The one in I3 train collision. Almost 300 dead, well over 1000 injured. There's your industrial desk, and it was a tech failure. The electronic signal system. And wow. Millions of vehicles. In the US. Being recalled, Ford Broncos Mercedes. Then fast and at least one other. Yeah, actually millions at any given time. It just seems like that's. That ain't working. And then you got your apartment building collapses, especially the one in Iowa. Also one in Connecticut. During the past week. And as this just sticks into the consciousness, I think at least. The media. Keeps plugging on it. What the surgeon general referred to, he wasn't the only one, but how the US is 1 lonely country. More than half of Americans are chronically lonely. There's just an endless string of stories about that. And let's see. Also last week from England News and observer, that's the publication I wasn't aware of, but. Thanks to RC I get this story about how an epidemic of loneliness is growing. And the vaccine for that is social connections. Yeah, whatever happened to that? It wasn't brought about by social media. In fact, obviously it isn't. Being brought about. And it's very closely, intimately conjoined with. Physiological health. Health crisis. And relatedly. In at Futurity, this was last Friday the 2nd. The University of Arizona study. In the journal Psychosomatic Medicine. How grief can cause a marked increase in blood pressure? Death of a loved one, for example, can elevate the systolic blood pressure. Leading to major cardiac risk. Can cause your heart to fail. Well, you know, there's some everyday life failures that are becoming. Just part of the mosaic of the whole. Thing in terms of the environment there was. The story yesterday, more than one actually, but how Allstate and State Farm? Big insurance companies no longer insuring homes in California. And apparently Florida has lost most. Coverage most companies. Yeah, it was a story in the New York Times setting quote, rapidly growing catastrophe exposure. Wildfires, for example. But. Yeah, there's a nice term, rapidly growing catastrophe exposure. Yeah, I'm part of the overall catastrophe. As we know. And just, you know, one more thing it's. This is not brand new news either, but in the past week I think it was just two days ago, three days ago at Churchill Downs in Kentucky. America's most famous horse racing track, I believe. Closed due to the deaths of 12 race horses in a month. Horse races. Yeah, this is not just. Churchill Downs but race tracks in California. Yeah, lots of deaths. The apotheosis of domestication. You know you breed these. Creatures to run the fastest be the lightest bones or the thinnest, and so forth. I mean it's just. Designed. It's engineered to fail. And as they with further domestication, even more deaths just to ridiculous carnage. Of these animals. So humans can watch them run around a track. Well, they may die, but you know you don't really get to see that very much. They just. Take care of that quickly. But there is a kind of if you will. Non domestication story, a kind of primitive voice story. In Metro, which is an outlet in England. This is back on the May on May 14th, but thanks to our CI saw just a couple of days ago. About a man. Who has used leaves instead of toilet paper for the past five years and loves it. This is great. Robin Greenfield by name. You know, he points out, it's free, non polluting. It's a healthy alternative. You don't have no deforestation because of it. He's got his favorite leaves. I'm sure not a belief is. Is the best for that, but yeah, amazing. Thank you, Richard. You know what we're like. More music, more serious music too. Part of the general motif, the general awareness is it. There's a this was announced last Thursday on Earth. By the composer Julia Wolfe. It's an orchestral work, an oratorio. In its structure, it's. It certainly has to do with the urgency. Of the climate crisis and there's, yeah, there's some. Very good new stuff along those lines. From high country news. News about stink net. Also known as Globe chamomile. Little chamomile doesn't sound too bad. Well. It's taken over much of the Sonoran Desert. Arizona, Northern Mexico, Nevada. Yeah, it is a smelly irritant weed. I guess you'd have to say which wipes out other plants. And the erratic weather. Has pushed this. This is really. Yeah, just kind of rapidly, it's it's been around. A bit, but it hasn't become a big old scourge like it's going on. Well, we're just racing through stuff, so I do hope that somebody might pick. Up the phone.

Speaker 4: What's that number?

Speaker 7: Oh, that number is 541-346-0645.

Speaker 4: Maybe somebody will call 541-346-0645.

Speaker 7: You're checking the line there, huh?

Speaker 4: Yes, I'm checking 541-346-0645 to see if. Anybody's calling.

Speaker 7: They might remember that. Well, on to some more of the more political news. Some of the Action News, too. There is there's a new. Book called Caruso Bro El Macho. Also known as running on emptiness, one of my earlier books. From Walden additions. In Buenos Aires. Yeah, this just came out in Argentina. Very happy to learn about that. And don't forget, by the way my. Newest connection collection. It was last year, but when we are human. Hope you didn't miss that. Well, other media kind of stuff, I guess the television and film writers strike has apparently been settled. And meanwhile, actors and reporters. Are either on strike or preparing to strike before the month is out. Hmm, here's an interesting overview. About the whole. Environmental crisis. From social war. I don't really know what social or something or other. The source isn't the point, but. Just a day or two ago makes the point that. It's good to have these various defensive struggles protecting or trying to protect. Particular places. Forests and so on and but points out the kind of obvious thing that. It's everywhere, so there will have to be some kind of a. Response and answer to. The wider thing, not just the defensive. Necessary struggles in that area, but it will require expropriation not only of the oil fields and pipelines and refineries in order to dismantle them. But of the industrial economy. Which they feed and upon which they depend. So far, so good. Then then it goes on to say it will require the demolition of capitalist social relations, that is to say, total social transformation through social revolution. You know, I get, I get back to the same. Old point. So socialist social relations would be fine with answer the question. You know it's it's a little odd because in the sentence before that. Refers to. You know oil fields, pipelines and refineries to dismantle them. Why don't you say that? More pointedly? I mean, why don't you point to the actual structure of things, not just the political? Superstructure, if you will. I mean it's just. This is from the Brooklyn Rail. The the typical leftist confusion if, or maybe it's a deliberate confusion, they. They don't want to. Be anywhere near to primitivism, yet they're talking about dismantling all this stuff. In one breath, I mean I I don't. I don't really get it. Are they just? They just sort of hang on to this. Oh, if only it was just capitalism. That's what it is that we need socialism. I. Mean, come on. When are you going to get the? Is the penny going to drop? Well, it was issued during the week. Another communique from the contemptuous. Which is fine stuff anti leftist, to be sure. You know, it's another tirade. Sort of repetitious though kind and non non specific. And Artemis responded to the first ones of the communique, #1. In a very thoughtful way and. You know, also agreeing with the general thing, but. You know might be. Maybe better to also flush this out a little bit. Like who exactly are you talking about? Which formations? You know Antifa or just who or how does that work or something? I mean, mostly it's just. Well placed insults about creeping leftism. And now it's very. And very important to be aware of this. I mean to check that. So more power to them or anti power if you like. And I think it was yesterday. Came the announcement. Little black card. We'll call it quits at the end of. This year, no more. Book production. No more distribution. They're going to wind that up. It really was Aragorn's baby. He started it and I guess he was the. The motive force? With a number of other people, including interns. So I they didn't really point out the whole picture, except that it's been kind of going downhill. For a while. You know, it seems to be. Closely connected to. So I wonder if that's going to maintain. I mean, it's a different deal. It's it's the news service. And feedback kind of stuff. And they have the topic of the week, which always kind of like every week a different topic, like just a novelty, just a little quickie. Not a lot of depth, it seems like and you know the response is to the end of LBC. Kind of sad. I mean a lot of them are like, good riddance or just kind of dumb. Stuff like that. And I mean a number of them. I did look through that. You know, gave them credit for. Publishing a lot of books that wouldn't have been published elsewhere. But a lot of this, just petty little cracks, you know little. Jabs and. People that probably never read any of those books. But it's sad to see that coming to an end. Maybe they're holding out hope that somebody will take it over. Somebody else will take it over. But. It didn't sound like it really. Well, there was a Southern poverty law. What is it, Council or? Anyway, SPLC. They've been around a long time. They issued a report that came out today. Sounding the toxin about hate, hate speech, hate activities, hate groups. And like other liberals, just really. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this doesn't exist. It does. But I mean, there's a there's also a way to. You know, make that not only the sole focus, but to over exaggerate it. I'm waiting for. One of these, whatever it is, anti drag show. These neo Nazis that pull that kind of crap all the. Time I'm waiting for one of those things to succeed. And it's going down. You never see that in other words. How giant is this threat? You know the systems hanging by a thread or something. For example, it's a Sacramento Sacramento City Council meeting on May 23rd. Five Neo Nazis tried to disrupt it. They were shouted down and kicked out. So yeah, what if what if giant danger? I mean, these few creeps just, you know, got booted out of there? And of course as. Hundreds of these January 6, 2021 people will go to prison every day. Where is this gigantic threat, I mean? You know for certain there's anti-gay anti trans racist anti-Semitic. Crap out there for sure, but. It's sort of fails all the time too. I mean, you know, let's get straight on that. Well, here's something worth waiting for. And I don't know just how soon this will be available. The author is. Has just left for a month in Africa. And he has circulated a draft. Of a book called Human Rewilding in the 21st century, why anthropologists fail? James V Morgan. And it takes apart not only. The dawn of everything by Graber and windrow. But one. Fairly important journal article that's about to appear, which kind of takes up the same thread in defense of civilization and progress and. You know from a generally leftist point of view and. You know, these are the avatars of civilization, for sure. They're defending it. And this piece is so well done, it just it just answers all these jabs and put downs and. A bunch of false statements about rewilding. How it's actually racist to be talking about that stuff and how. What do 100 gatherers have to do with anything? That sort of stuff? Well, we do know that pre history is haunting the culture as it fails so grandly. Where do you look for maybe a little help. With that. And anyway, James V Morgan, this is. So well done. I hope this draft is. Realize I don't know how you would perfect it. Haven't had. The total time to read every word of it, but I've gone through it and I'm so impressed. So I await that I think the. Believe he's got a plan. Foreseeing that published in the near future, human rewilding in the 21st century, why anthropologists fail. There are some anthropologists who have. Really helped. With the whole critique. Some of them are no longer around. And some of these newer lefty characters are. Are much afraid of that, the implications of. Of looking at Origins and seeing civilization for the absolute ruin that it's turning out to be. Yeah, it's a, it's kind of a pitiful political effort on the part of some of these people that Morgan deals with extremely well. He doesn't resort to name calling or. In your windows like some of these, like some of his opponents do, you might say. Excuse me a SEC. So that's a very positive thing to look forward to. Let's see. Is it got a few things here. In Patra, Greece on May 30th there were sledgehammer attacks on Alpha Bank and Piraeus Bank. This is in the area of Athens, more or less. ATM machine on a Piraeus Piraeus bank to the Port of Athens, that is. And another alpha bank in the area in solidarity with hunger striker Yannis Michaelis. Hi Michael, Web, Yannis, Michael Lee leitis. Probably not much better than the first half of it. And in Gunda ricor. Northeast France. Also on May 30th, a new police station was burned. Yeah, very, very big. Action there. Back on the 19th of May in Munich. 2 Eagles new electric vehicles. Were burned at a charging station. To the tune of €100,000 worth. End of Graffito was left no HKW. That is some kind of a human resources company, I. I did not see an explanation of the what is the connection there but. But a major action. And let's see. I'm jumping around date wise, but on the on May 31st. After the verdict. Lena E just not giving out her last name, but Lena E was convicted of attacking Neo Nazis. And given a lengthy prison sentence. Well, after the verdict there was some blowback on Wednesday, May 31st. About 800 people took part in a demo in Leipzig, according to police. Some tried to break through police lines. Throwing bottles, stones, fireworks at cops. A laser was also pointed at a police helicopter. There was a similar protest by an estimated 800. In the northwestern city of Bremen. And the other end of the country from Leipzig. And 1200 people demonstrated in Hamburg, where police said officers had bottles and fireworks thrown at them. In Berlin. Boy, what's up with Berlin? An estimated 450 people took part in a largely peaceful protest. Well, Berlin not leading their way there. And this. Saturday the 3rd past weekend here Mohawk Nation News. Reported that near northeast Quebec and Labrador, these are course colonial names. The traditional Innu people INNU. Are evicting logging companies from their lands. And canceling a modern treaty in the making. This is Natasha Anon, unseeded territory. Actually, bigger than France in size, the big chunk in. In Northeastern Canada or eastern Canada? Well, I think the time for a music break. Yeah, we'll be back shortly.

Speaker 6: I will say demon and friend of mine. Ego building. I gotta walk up the stairs.

Speaker 8: Deep blue rock. Good boy, not to say.

Speaker 6: I laid my.

Speaker 8: Head and I.

Speaker 6: Can't tell which down in her life.

Speaker 8: A couple of slices. And there I was, lying. Listen, get your buyer. Well, as I can recall. Well, my Simon body to recollect. The girl had told us that she. Was a niece and. Walt Whitman, but not which niece? And it takes a knife and a girl and a pocket. This kind a long, long time to find its way back.

Speaker 6: That's not all night. Friends of mine say we gonna build it.

Speaker 8: Watch out.

Speaker 6: What this is? Had not been to girls.

Speaker 5: Leave it out.

Speaker 8: A big.

Speaker 6: Living room.

Speaker 0: OK.

Speaker 7: Billy Bragg? Yes, indeed. It's been noticed for a little while that the. Interest in the Metaverse, which of course aims at all immersive digital or virtual reality, is faded. Giving ground to. Two AI you know, but it was fading before the whole chat bot thing started up. About six months ago. Despite investments by Apple, for example. That's been overtaken by AI developments. This just kind of broke over the weekend and you can check this out at The Verge if you're that interested in. Applebee's vision Pro this is. In effective VR headset, much publicity and you can buy one for only three only $3500. I'm not advising anyone to do that, but truly a ticket to nowhere. I think this is just about a perfect metaphor for flight from reality. Yeah, just strap that on and just imagine that everything's fine. Or you don't want to hear about it anyway if. It isn't fine. Yeah, just nobody knows whether this is going to fly. The VR stuff, as I just said, it's kind of faded. Not a lot of fervor behind that or investments, but. This is 1 big stab added by Apple. I mean they. Try to go forward on all fronts. With the substitute for actual. Maima has a new book, bio Urbanism Cities as nature. I'm not kidding. Bio urbanism cities as nature by Adrian McGregor. Yeah. Nature novel nature. Yeah, that's been kicked around a little bit before. It's really an ecosystem. Yeah, it's, but. It's all about technology. And nothing but. Its relationship to nature is only a. Energetically -1. I mean, you don't even have to know much beyond the name. You you don't even have to guess. And what they're trying? To peddle. Calling it bio or eco or something like that. Well, as the University of Oregon professor lives around the corner. And ran into him yesterday. Well, he was just pretty, uh. Pretty down. Pretty bewildered, even more than usual. By the AI onslaught, and he was saying it's not so much chat bot cheating among students as just to. A deeper, more general problem. With thinking that quaint. He said he's he's a radical kind of guy, he said. Forget dialectics. You know. He said. I've never seen such zombie machine like students. And it's fairly shocked, I mean, not that he's. You know a babe in the woods about these things and all, but they don't know what to do or even what to. Suggests or, you know, put on the table, it's. It's bumming him out more and more of that, that just fed into the already ailing. Halls of academe. And here's a piece. Again, thank you, Darcy. A BBC story called Eco Disaster waiting to happen. This is just this past Sunday. From BC and the point is and this is nothing hidden their secret actually, but. There are billions of solar panels now. I think I think they said 2.5 billion. Possibly more, and they have an average of about 25 year lifespan. Because there's more of these every day. And I think if I know I've mentioned this before, that in a one of the latter issues of green anarchy magazine. Our friend and editor fire. Wrote an in-depth piece about how toxic it is to manufacture solar panels. And how it's more toxic to deal with them after they burn out. So eco disaster waiting to happen. You can probably take away the question mark. Yeah. How are you going to recycle that? I mean, that's the same. That's the magic word like it is with plastics, although now it's common knowledge. The the recycling A they don't know how to do it with plastics because there are million kinds of plastics. Plastic and. It's very often makes it worse when they try to recycle. Of course you try to recycle, but. Man scary data about. What that actually means? When they try to do it. Well, the actor Rowan Atkinson, wasn't he? Black adder? Yes, yes. I love that. Very great comedic actor. He's done a bunch of stuff.

Speaker 4: I'm so glad you. Said Blackadder and not Mr. Bean.

Speaker 7: Oh yeah. Oh yeah, no comparison. Mr. bean. Yeah, that wasn't too great. Anyway, it turns out that this actor has an engineering degree. I had no idea and he commented about the. The E car production electric cars. He said he feels duped because producing them is 70% more greenhouse emissions. Then a regular gasoline powered. Alright, largely due to the lithium battery production part of it. Yeah, I don't know if he was thinking that was going to be a dandy idea, or maybe he knew all along, but. He had to make his. Feelings felt about that, and I guess that's news because he's well known. And good for him for pointing it out. Well, Speaking of teachers, there was a piece late last week. In the guardian. Called I'm a teacher and This is why I'm not giving my child a smart phone yet. Too bad the yet is there, but anyway. You know, and this is about the endless studies that show detrimental effects of Internet. Use, especially at young ages. And that the more time. Children. Or maybe everybody, I guess, spends on online. The more loneliness they feel. In particular, that's the. It's the emotion. Great. Thanks to Richard for. It's been a little I've been a little distracted just lately with. Dealing with a few things in. Very grateful to. My friend Richard in the UK. Also in the Guardian on the same day, June 2nd. Philip Moore. Writes in the years since I quit social media, my screen time has fallen. My mood is up. Even my resting heart rate is lower. Philippa Moore. She describes a very healthy shift. That she did. Yeah, there's the positive side of it for sure. Well, I mentioned the tech failure with the horrendous 3 train collision in eastern India. This is certainly not. A fatal kind of thing like that, but last Thursday. Spirit Airlines app Underwent a big screw up involving huge delays and cancellations. Yeah, another tech fail. Didn't kill anyone, unfortunately. And I love all these augmented reality stories, and in fact, this Apple Vision Pro thing is. They're trying to say it's not exactly VR, it's more like. Additional reality or something like that they try to, they kind of screw around with the terms and with their hustle. There was a piece yesterday about AI powered Photoshop and mid journey. These are. 2 apps which are trying to perfect. Helping things along. The quote is making family photos look better. Of course, that's not the actual family depicted, but it's augmented, right? It's it's just you want to dress it up and. Maybe put a smile here and there or. Something? Why not? You can change reality. With AI. Yeah, more and more. Synthetic and fake and. So on and let's see. Also yesterday. In the news, this is a guardian story about the US, about Prince William County in Virginia. And this is not just about that locale, but it starts with that. How these data centers. The the ones in particular here are storage for cloud Internet. And this particular story has to do with. Just to an enormous number of these. Consuming a lot of energy there. I guess there's somewhat noisy even as well, but. In this case, they're threatening to obliterate historical sites. They're apparently. The number of civil war sites. Especially early on in the civil war. Battles were fought in that area and that's going to be turned into industrial. Data centers. Deal with the cloud to service the cloud. Well, here's a story that I saw just a little bit of a tease, a little. Like a micro promo. For upcoming Oppenheimer movie, you know he's son of as the father of the atomic bomb. In down in New Mexico and in the 40s. And the only thing they used was there was a little quickie line about he, he says. This is kind of sketchy but. It be even sketchier if the Nazis do it. So got to do it right, got to build. The a bomb. And it reminded me of what Jeffrey Hinton, the big VR guy. Who's talking about how scared he is about the onrushing AI? The chat bot and all that. You know, it's just kind of a throwaway line. But there's a hook to it. He says. Oh, you want to stop? Well, the Chinese ain't going to stop. So it's just a variation on the same thing, he said. If I hadn't done it, somebody else would. Oppenheimer, the same thing. Going to have the nuclear weapons or else? Somebody worse will do it. And the point is the technology goes forward. In any case, I mean that's none of that gets in the way. Those are. Those are what is given as. I don't know what you call it. Excuses or well, it's also political reality on one level, right. But the point is nothing stops the advance of technology. Unless you want it to stop, unless you think about it that way as a possibility. And obviously the what is reaped. Is more and more obvious. Uh. All of this stuff. Gets worse, and I've I've seen some of these. Commentaries. Yeah, we thought that the really ultimately scary thing was was atomic weapons well. Maybe even deeper is the scary takeover. By all this high tech stuff of these developments that just going to replace thought as my neighbor is saying. And seeing. But uh. Yeah, you know what? It's what it's all about. And it's increasingly hard to avoid. Seeing it. And maybe that's the silver lining, but I think I've run out of material. May be better equipped next week. Colonel and I will be back next week. Don't know. At this moment, whether Catherine will be on later in the month or not. It wouldn't have been next week anyway, but keep you posted about that. And we've got some miles, Davis. And thanks for listening. Take care.



Memorial Day weekend carnage. Extinctions: much worse than thought. Red Sea coral die-off. Big increase in weight loss surgery for children and teens. Record police killings in past year. AI is feared and unpopular. Anti-tech Chicago Med TV show. e-skin, e-fake media.What's up at Thacker Pass. Anarchist book fairs galore, resistance briefs. Bison rewilding project in Alaska. One call.

Speaker 1: Sports Network. It is not K V8 is on the Oregon Sports Network zavier on Friday at 10 AM you are not able to listen here on TWA, but you are able to listen on the Oregon Sports Network so long from Eugene. This is Griffin vows with Levi Profit and Aiden Hess have a great rest of your day.

Speaker 2: You've been listening to quack smack on kW VA. If you miss any portion of the show or just want to listen again, you can find the full show recordings online at Plus, we're on Twitter at kW, a sports. Join us again for our next episode tomorrow at 6:00 PM right here on KWVA Eugene 88.1 FM.

Speaker 0: I don't know.

Speaker 3: Good evening. You're listening to KWVA, Eugene. It is 7:00. Time for anarchy radio. I think we have music from Randy Newman to get us started and we'll put our headphones on and get our minds straight and be with you in just a second. This is called. Last night I had a dream.

Speaker 4: Last night I had a dream. You win it. Now was in it with. The other one that I know. Never one that you know was in my dream. So they're. Are so close. Everybody's scared. You scared me the most. See my head last night. Dream my head last night. Started out in the barnyard sundown. Never one was laughing. Can you tell me what your name? Can you tell me what's your name? I say you know what my name is. Last night I had a dream. You were in it. Now was in it with you. The other one that I know. Never one that you know was in my dreams. Saw vampire my head last night to dream my head last night in my dream. A song goes. Everybody's scared. You scared me the more.

Speaker 6: Hello there. It's May 30th time for anarchy radio. Well, we had. A dandy interview. Last week, that recording last week. Catherine, Evan, and Jamie interviewed Darcia Narvaez. Yeah, whatever happened to the social? I mean, that's kind of the core of. Of her explorations and trying to. Get back to something. Inner books, like restoring the kinship worldview, indigenous voices. 28 precepts for rebalancing life on the planet and. And the more recent one, which is what has been discussed the most, for example by Calvin. Neurobiology and the development of human morality, evolution, culture and wisdom. Some real fine stuff, she. She really put it across well, I think. Last week, so anybody have any? Thoughts on that or further questions or? Anything like that, you can call us at 541-346-0619. OK, well. At least 16 dead and many dozens wounded. In Memorial Day weekend carnage. Shootings. What else is new? And I think it's well, it's a higher number for one thing because. Quite a few of those were critically wounded, and I I don't think that was even. A number that came in before the weekend was over so. But yeah, that's nudist. Can we say about that? Well, you know the 6th grade extinction, that's been a topic for a while. On Monday the 22nd in the journal Biological Reviews. There was a study on extinctions based on a look at more than 70,000 species globally. And it turns out extinction losses quote significantly more alarming. Than previously thought. And it's a pretty big primary thing going on. One of the key environmental news things of the week, I'd say middle of the week. In the Red Sea off of Israel. To the north of Israel. Sea urchin die off is imperiling the famous red coral reef. Which I think gives the Red Sea its name anyway. The sea urchins take care of the algae. Which otherwise kills the coral. Rough weather with that. There's a piece on the. Weekend about. High school kids in New York. And it has to do with stress. I think at base dealing with stress and pressures like that. Anyway, the point is. How many more kids are coming to school high? With the classrooms subsequently in disarray. Getting to be. Quite a presence in that sense. Yeah, all is not well. Anywhere, especially among the youth in a story today. This is just a general ABC News story, alarming increase in the number of children and teens turning to weight loss surgery. Weight loss surgery. I mean, you think? Of you know, maybe it's called morbid obesity among middle-aged people or. That sort of thing. But children and teens. Just part of how. And healthy things are getting. And also in the weekend news that police killings in the past year. At a record high and. Young unarmed black men especially. Among the homicides by the pigs. Yeah, new record. There's so many weird things, some of it's just kind of. And so some of it is telling. I would, I would. Say I'm surfing around television the other day and I've noticing the commercials. I think there are at least two shoe companies. That uh. Shoes that you just step into, you don't have to. You don't have to touch them or bend over. You know that would be too much work. Too much exertion in these in in our days. Made me think of a tune it back in the 60s. There was this weird. Satirical band The Bonzo Dog Doodah Band never heard of that.

Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I've heard of him.

Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah. Well, they had one send up of. I think they were already doing doing this on intelligent until there's packaging these. Work out things you know and one of them. I remember the line. No one pleasant, bending perfect. And now it's not a satire you just. That would be too unpleasant to bend over and. Put your shoes on. Kind of like those ads for selling your car. You don't have to get up off the couch while you do because you got to go out to the curb and and get a check from the. Car carrier that comes around all you going to punch a few things into your phone. And you're not even interrupting the your the time you spend with the **** tube, it just takes seconds during the commercial. I guess. Something like that. And there you go. No one pleasant bending. Ah, there was a story Sunday. Worries mount about misinformation and science. Allison Snyder and. Yeah, maybe think more about. I wish I could understand this, maybe somebody out there can. Pitching on this conspiracy theory, which is a, you know, an oxymoron, there's no theory, which means analysis to make conspiracy. You know what I'm talking about. And it's just you can't tell. Who's going to succumb to it? It's it's really bizarre. I was just thinking about recent. Acquaintances well, at least encountering them recently. Couple of people I know here in Eugene. One is a kind of a lost soul. He's wandered around the world and. A gentle soul. Kind of. You know, sort of having a hard time fitting in or. What he's all about, anyway. Anyway, I'm not going to use this name, of course, but he comes out with this viciously anti trans thing. Trans has terrorism that that the transgender people are. Somehow trying to take over everything. And pulls everything on everybody else. It's just. Wait a minute. I mean the victim part doesn't even register at all and. This is somebody I thought would wouldn't be. I mean, there's something very aggressive about that and I didn't think that I wouldn't have. Guessed that brand of it would be his. Piece of that pathology. Another person I know here in town that I've known longer. Very good guy. Very stand up guy. Kind of a gentle. Buddhist guy, I think. I think that's he would he would self describe as that. Anti VAX following for cryptocurrency. Just you know. Paranoid about. Many things I would say. Again, that's not somebody that I would. You know, would fit the stereotype to me, although I don't know what the stereotype is. I guess there isn't one. That's kind of my point here. Yeah. Anybody have any thoughts on that? It's. There doesn't seem to be any end. Of it or? Any rhyme or reason to it either? The reason behind it and the. The psychology of it. What have you? I'm just. Not quite getting it. Well, I have also locally it's kind of another local little angle here. Some neighbors and friends across the street just spent three weeks in Greece. And so I was curious. I don't know if they would call themselves anarchists. I think they're quite sympathetic. If they're not anarchist, I've never we've never really gotten into that. They're. You know, neighbors nice people anyway. They found a huge presence. In Athens in particular. They also got down the Creek, which is a kind of a favorite spot of mine in Greece, but. They just they were in Exarchia Square, for example, and same deal I was at once in 22,221 years ago. And it was. I was kind of thinking kind of the heyday of the anarchist scene there in the Exarchia. Cops didn't come around unless there were like six of them, and they would kind of hustle along. They wouldn't. They wouldn't linger. They were. They knew they were not at wanted there and. Anyway, from what they were telling me. Sounds like much the same. One thing that I hadn't heard about is these dogs. Apparently, feral dogs in Athens. Have linked up with the anarchists against the cops. And so there are these murals celebrating these dogs. As kind of. Front line anarcho dogs or something like that, which is. Very cool. So it's. You know, there's really been a lot of repression in the, you know, they're trying to gentrify Exarchia and put in a Subway stop there and you know, just kind of. Undermine the place. But the fight goes on and. It just seemed to them a very strong anarchist presence. Very nice to hear about that. Creeker #4 is out. This is part of the series. I think it. A series of scenes that takes its name, I believe from the Fairy Creek blockade in. So-called British Columbia. All about indigenous resistance, especially to logging of ancestral land. Very thorough stuff. It's just a. You know, first hand kind of stuff about that. I mentioned the oakum and. Out West of Tucson and Odom land. Who was shot 38 times? In the doorway of his home. More on this idea that this guy had evidence. Of collusion between the Border Patrol and one or more cartels, drug cartels. Terms of drugs moving. Across the border. Well, I guess that's one form of border. Patrol on it. When they're not. Policing, harassing. Surveilling. The indigenous people are in general. Yeah, I think that's a fairly big story and hats off to censored news. The Tucson based new service by Brenda Norrell. It's always worth checking out. Well, it seems that the sand Bones Book Club is going to be coming to an end. I guess you'd call him the producer figure. Has been doing it a while. There, there wasn't one lately, and there won't be one in June. The last one will be the end of July. I think that's July 30th. It'll be Fern Thompson. And I think she's going to. Be talking about the couple of years she's spent in this area of Pacific North. Kind of hunting down off the grid. Primitivist types and others doing that. Actually practicing. Trying to be outside of civilization. That should be super. And that will probably be the last one. These are being televised on Community television. Locally here, that's channel 29. I think it's Thursday evening at 7:30. John has made that happen. He's been taping these. There's just a whole lot of anarchist book fairs coming up. This is really the season for it. Late spring, early summer, in fact. I'm going to mention. These have already happened. Glasgow May 27th, Montreal May 27th to the 28th. Hamburg May 27th, Athens. May 28th. And coming up in the Gulf of Toronto. In Italy, southern Italy between the heel and the boot. Of the late June. 1st to the 3rd, Stockholm June 3rd to the 4th, Paris June 3rd. Warsaw and Poland, June 8th to the 11th. Graz, Austria donates to the 10th. And my favorite. The anti civilization Agro Crust Festival in Spain, in Catalonia. Yeah, somewhere near Barcelona, I guess or. Between there and Valencia, maybe I'm guessing, but Catalonia? June 9th to the 11th. Quite an array, maybe more. And probably are in different places. I mean, those are just the ones basically in Europe. Well, one Noah coffin. I've just. I've just heard about this. Ah, he's a prisoner in Texas, Huntsville, TX. And he is behind Mongoose distro. No to industrialization. Yes to green anarchy. Says Noah coffin. And one of the things he's arguing? It's kind of a myth, you know, there's all this propaganda in favor of GMO's and the latest industrial kinds of farming. Well, we have to, we have to so many people, and there's not enough land. Well, he's pointing out. With figures that there's actually a lot of land. Quite a lot of land. That's just kind of you're made to think that we all live in New York City or something where there isn't too much available land, but. On a global basis, there really is a lot. And so that undermines. A lot of that stuff. And of course. He's implying the rewilding the. The move away from domestication. I'm sure. Well, I only have a couple of. Action things. Dusseldorf may the 27th. That was this Saturday. The report. About sabotage actions against the railroad. A series of them in the last four months we have carried out five incendiary attacks against the railway signal cables in the Dusseldorf area. Yeah, main goal was to hinder the commodity traffic. And some of these have been. Pretty effective. Several tracks. Inoperative during the day. All day. And to increase their effort, we tried to synchronize the incendiary attacks with strikes or other sabotage actions against the Railroad Society society we live in is about to engulf the entire planet. The massive transformation of natural ecosystems into dead, dead products. Is not the consequence of a lack of information or immature technologies, but is central mechanism of the system. That brings with it a vortex of war, disease and exploitation. Well, these folks are. Know how to do it and they know how to articulate. That which is really important. Very nice to get that. And here's another line. Sabotaged an electric line. In southeast France. Yeah, this has to do with. A pile on supporting a 225,000 Volt power line. Anti industry anti. Electric line. The power line. And this stopped the Hexal chemical factory. Yeah, seriously injured. Operations there. And this has to do with this. I don't know if I've even mentioned it. Mega basin. In rural France, it's kind of a big. Cisterns that are thing mega size. For industrial farming. The whole scale of it, the whole. Obscenity of it, there's a lot of people that are against it. Pretty much so. But here's a new book just been reading. Northern Paiutes in the Malheur. High desert reckoning in Oregon country. Mahir is right in the center of the state. There's the somewhat famous Malheur Wildlife Refuge, which was. Occupied for a while, what, two years ago by these right wing Yahoos, they seized it because they want more. Cattle raising and more fences and. All that sort of garbage. Yeah. Hunter gatherers right here in Oregon. This is the history. It has a lot to do with the struggles against the US Army. The payouts were high desert hunter gatherers. Yeah, they weren't farming and they didn't have any central authority, small scale communities. In fact, right now. This is not in the book, but. Brendan Murrell at. And censored news. Is doing some ongoing coverage of the Paiute Shoshone prayer blockade at the Paiute Massacre site at Thacker Pass. You know about Thacker pass and the. Proposed lithium mining there. Which is very close to the corner of. Oregon, Idaho, Nevada. High Desert, the Alvord desert down there, you you find yourself in Nevada before you know it. Out there. So the Paiutes and the Shoshones have not always gotten along. Not so bad as some groups, but uh. But now they're pulling together. Yeah, that's kind of a long story, but. Northern Paiutes of the Malheur by David Wilson. Almost forgot that David Wilson. Yeah, quite a piece of scholarship. And it relies a lot on. Living pilots. Well, there is thanks to a good friend of mine in Alaska, there's a huge rewilding project, actually the biggest in North America. It's being planned. It's in the works, introducing free range bison. The goal was big herds of wild bison. And Speaking of how much land there is, which Noah Coffin talked about. There's a huge amount of land in Alaska you're not even. I mean, Alaska is 1/3 the size of the entire US. And some of it isn't very warm at times, but that's changing too as we know, but. This is an enormous deal and I think one thing has to be worked out is. What is the role of indigenous people? Bringing this about. I believe know a few things about uh. Moose, elk, Caribou and so forth. Not to mention Buffalo. So we'll see how that rolls out very large scale. Well, let's see. I think we should maybe try a little music break while you ponder your call to anarchy radio.

Speaker 7: I've been navigating my waves, nothing. Reality of a godless existence, which at this point in my race. By myself. I guess.

Speaker 8: It doesn't matter. Anyway. I don't care about nothing. Doesn't matter because I don't care about nothing.

Speaker 7: I'm not. Your little songs are getting way too literal. *** **** snuggle keeper changed. Get a room without. Hit it all.

Speaker 8: Nothing for you.

Speaker 7: It's alright, it's just a flash. Wound. You said you never saw coming. I'm pretty happy.

Speaker 5: Lying here with you.

Speaker 7: It's pretty good to feel something.

Speaker 6: Hello there, we're back. That was PUP, as Canadian Punkers, we played one track last week, I think. Well, this whole chat bot stuff, the AI thing is really breaking out in various ways. Today. There was a big public statement. 350 public figures, whatever that means, exactly including the CEO of the chatbot GPT company that started all this late last year, a dire warning. AI could change everything, and once again the threat, the fear of human extinction as a possibility. Raised again. Not for the first time, but especially from this guy, Hinton. So we need safety regulations, we need licensing controls, something like that. Ohh OK we got a. Call here. Yeah, we got on. The phone. Oh goody. Hi. Hello there.

Speaker 9: Hey, how you doing?

Speaker 6: Good. How are you?

Speaker 9: I'm doing well, you know, I wasn't. I wasn't planning to call in. But you know, it seems like you you were kind of asking. So here I am. So two things I wanted to respond to. The first ones about Thacker pass. You know that's been going on for a while and you know deep green resistance, our favorite wannabe Maoist group. Has has been. I will put I'll say active in in that event, but in a very problematic way. And this is something I've been I'm not super caught up on, but I've been reading what people are writing I think. It was last year two years ago. There was an indigenous critique of deep green resistance is basically trying to take the limelight from them and like forcing themselves into the public view. And these were indigenous people saying, like, we didn't invite them here and they're, like trying to take control of everything. Which, if anyone, knows anything about deep green resistance that shouldn't come as a surprise. You know, so and then recently I think couple weeks ago met Wilbur, who is another one of the. Cult of personality types in that group did his own, you know, was streaming on his Facebook, talking about himself and how revolutionary he is. And it's just wow, you know, for people that talk about decolonizing, you know, they have no problem just forcing themselves into the limelight, regardless of indigenous opinions.

Speaker 5: Right.

Speaker 6: Yeah, they're not satisfied with being rather viciously anti trans now. They pull this kind of crap, which is, I mean, they don't even know any history in terms of authoritarian patterns or, you know, that it's just a way. Nasty stuff.

Speaker 9: Right. And then there you have that it's one of the more recent books. It's Derrick Jensen, Lear, Keith and Metz Wilbur Co wrote it and it's one of Lear sections. She even says, you know, in terms of leadership and ideas, young people just need to be quiet because their brains aren't developed enough to have any ideas, which basically means just listen to us.

Speaker 6: The field Marshalls.

Speaker 9: You know, don't talk, right? Right. You know, it's ridiculous.

Speaker 6: Yeah, we got it covered.

Speaker 9: Right. Yeah, I just, I didn't know if you were aware of that and just you mentioned. Sector Pass and that came to mind.

Speaker 6: I didn't know about that.

Speaker 9: Yeah. And then the second thing, you're. Talking about the. The anti trans transit terrorism. What I find really funny of that, especially people who consider themselves. Let's say radical anti capitalist whatever who are falling into this. What's funny is they don't realize that there are trans people. Then there are corporations trying to exploit trans people, and that's typically what these right wing nut jobs are responding to is they don't realize they're just falling for a culture war. Typical capitalism, and they and they think they're the the free thinkers that they can't see the obvious that, you know, the rainbow shirts, the rainbow beer or whatever it is. The such trans people ask me for that it's corporations appropriating queer identities to sell. And it's a marketing scheme. And they're like, oh, my God, they're trying to document. Children. I was. Well, can you name them or are you going to name a corporation because? Again, these aren't the same thing.

Speaker 6: Right, right. Exactly. You got the wrong target.

Speaker 9: Right, which is for people again, you know Rev com the what is it that Maoist cult led by Bob Avakian, one of their Co leaders, just went to like a university, basically saying we should unite with the right against wokeness. In like anti trans stuff, it's it's insane. Yeah, you know, that's where it slides to is when you start talking anti trans of course. Like leer teeth. You know how quickly she aligns with. Just ending Nell, for example. She was she had another Python interface a couple of weeks or a couple months ago, and she allowed Indiano to platform her. And of course, right, and he knows a horrible fascist, right?

Speaker 6: Oh yeah, well, that doesn't.

Speaker 9: Matter. Yeah, right. Yeah. The interconnect. Yeah. The interconnection of all those things shouldn't be surprising, but people keep falling for it. And I I can't. I can't say why outside of just people who are willfully ignorant about certain things or it's the easy, the easy answer, I guess, is. Oh, it's trans people.

Speaker 6: It's just amazing, I mean. Yeah, well, there aren't so many outlets for. Very clear thinking. Either. I mean, you know, you you get the surface, take on something and then, well, I guess it must be that because you haven't heard from the other people so easily. I guess that's part of it too. It's it's mysterious though, man. I like, you know, I brought up this thing about. So-called conspiracy theory and people I've, you know, have some acquaintance with. I just wouldn't have guessed that they'd that they'd be. Pray for that. You know, I just. It just makes it even more.

Speaker 9: Yeah. And what's interesting is if they are not totally overboard, right, I think some of the best way to handle that is, well, what do you think about the, you know, it's trans people tend to take over the world, say, well, do you believe the right wing fascist idea that Jews are trying to take over the world? And they're like, no. It's like OK. So why do you? Think trans people are trying to do it. Exactly.

Speaker 6: Yeah. Great parallel. Yeah. Does that sound familiar? Like.

Speaker 9: And yeah, but the new bar. Yeah, right.

Speaker 6: In sheer stupidity.

Speaker 9: Right. But if they're too far, then of course there's they're not going to see that. But if they're not. Oh, well, whatever group it is, if it's, you know, because of course it's any the scapegoat, right. It's trans people now, but what will it be 3 years from now when the right realizes that didn't work, you know, cuz they move targets whenever they realize. Their culture war is now winning or it doesn't work. Does most people don't care? I really believe most people aren't transphobic, at least inherently, right in a better in a better way. And so the right will have to develop.

Speaker 6: Yeah, I think you're right. That's not. That's not automatic at all.

Speaker 9: New hire.

Speaker 6: I think. And they they will just switch to something else because they don't have any. They don't have any core. Value about anything. It's just all instrumental and I'll try something else equally nasty.

Speaker 9: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll leave it there. That's that's all I wanted to throw at you. I'll continue to listen to you complain about AI, as you should.

Speaker 10: OK.

Speaker 6: Hey, thank you, Artemis.

Speaker 9: Yep, have a great one.

Speaker 6: Well, that was a. A nice injection. It is good stuff to know. Yeah, you you can't. I mean, nothing is. I mean, I'm not a great pal of Noam Chomsky, but that that thing. And I wouldn't be saying this except it's public knowledge starting at the Wall Street Journal, his palling with the. Epstein, the late convicted predator, and. Just to low life of all time. But yeah, financially and. Friendship wise. That's even worse than. I mean, I wouldn't have. I wouldn't have imagined that from Chomsky he just seemed like a straight up block headed lefty, but not a sleazeball like that. But hmm wrong again. Well, OK, getting back to the the old AI stuff. Yeah, this big statement today. Yeah. Safety regulations, licensing controls, that's what's needed, et cetera. Very light on how any of that would actually work, right, makes me think. Of in a way of. Various environmental warnings or pleadings. What would have to happen in order to implement any of that? You know any of that correcting? You know, or healing or whatever you want to call it avoiding. The worst of it. Well, if you're not dealing with the nature of it, the dynamics of it, you're just going to be consoling yourself. Well, we've expressed our concern. We made a public statement, you know, and. Meaning what I mean, if I I'm still waiting to see. Oh, seriously, that is. I mean, if they don't want to go very far, they certainly don't want to indict the whole thing. Far from it. So then you're left with. Gestures. It seems to me. I don't know. I'm not. I mean, if they're going to be doing something, I'm not opposing that. But I mean, is it just? Treading water that it doesn't stop the thing at all, I mean. Uh, but also. In today's news from the Atlantic, it's kind of interesting a piece called AI is an insult now. In other words, if you call somebody an AI that's a real put down, I guess it's like you're just a robot or something a machine. Yeah. And further it goes. People already tired of machine generated text and they're not afraid to say it. Good. Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's healthy. And we'll see how far that goes. It's. I was going to hear about that. And you know it's you can count up all the errors that vast screw ups. You know, I was watching this. This is a very basic weekly television show, network television. I think it's on NBC Chicago Med. It's about a public hospital, a General Hospital. That gets privatized. It's a for profit hospital and I guess at the same time. It uh hooks up with something called 2.0. In other words, a an AI overview. It tells the surgeon what to do as he's operating and it's killed people. And there's a there's a rebellion against it. This is crazy. Doesn't know what it's doing. And you want to turn everything over. To this, I mean it's extremely Luddite as far as that goes, I mean it's. It kind of goes along with that Atlantic piece. It seems to me. Yeah, just your your standard. Evening. Uh TV series. I mean it's I think it's just usually all about the personalities. It's just pretty well done, but boy, they just veered off into this starkly political themes, you know, that are not just about interpersonal stuff. But also about the rest of it, it's coming down. For all of us. Meanwhile, the Governor of Florida. De Santis, another excrescence, he had this big Twitter roll out on Wednesday, right? Well, it took 1/2 an hour. To repair all the glitches of the dead air and so forth, the total mess. Talk about it techno screw up. It's just embarrassing. Hardly. The only thing that's embarrassing with the creep like that, but. Anyway, just uh yeah, this is. They can't seem to deal with humans, even in a slimy politicians way. You can't seem to manage that. So they're going to have this big. Techno hookup with Elon Musk, right? Except it. It was just a disaster. Well, here's something from Computex 2023. In Taipei. Has to do with video games and AI. Where you can actually talk. Well, you can talk to the avatars, right? You can. You can have a dialogue. You'll get an answer from the video game character. NVIDIA, NVIDIA CEO. Is calling it a peek at the future of games? Well, it's kind of clunky right now, but of course they're going to. Trying to perfect it. Kind of edges right into the whole Metaverse idea. Where all is virtual. Yeah, that's that's how that works. I guess that's how you progress. Into that zone of complete unreality and. Non humanness. Well, Stanford researches this is another new thing just today. Researchers are developing E skin. Yeah, and electronically simulated soft and stretching virtual skin. That can fool the brain. Yeah, it's all about. Pulling the wool over. Anything sensory. And reshaping it and fooling it, and whether it's deep fakes, whether it's always an endless cornucopia. Of the synthetic. Here's something from wired. Late last week. I think it's Friday the 26th. Where do real memories end and generative AI begin? Wasn't that the theme of? More or less, the theme of Blade Runner where the the replica so-called Replicant is being told it it's not her memory, she's just been programmed, right? Yeah. And that's the whole access point of the thing. Who is the replica and and? Whose memories are actual memories? Well, the point of this is where you got these. Photos you know, family photos, that sort of thing. Except they can be created. Rather easily, I guess AI powered editing tools that completely changed the context of the images and. You know. Move everything around and. Push the boundaries of truth, memory, and enhanced photography enhanced us like enhanced reality. Google dipped its toes in the water with the release of Magic Eraser in 2021. Now they're testing magic editor. The feature on select Android phones that repositions subjects removes. And edits out other elements and fills in with generative AI of course. Yeah, well, it's this stuff is not secret. They're advertising it. You know, they're they're promoting it. It's the opposite of secret. It's not like some. Weird Takeover scheming corporation? No, it's the technology. Being developed, certainly as we speak. Well, about a week ago the Japanese moon Lander crashed. Due to software failure.

Speaker 3: Where's your AI now?

Speaker 6: Yeah, right. What about it did not save the day. OK, well. We've run out of steam. We had one highly excellent call. You could still get in here. I think we would have some Zappa and maybe more. Randy Newman. I don't know. We're going to have to. Close out with this stuff. Thanks very much for tuning in and. Hope to be with you next week and then June.

Speaker 5: Turning the light. Wait and praise. Girl in the Sterling fight body lies. Girl alone in her room. A little liar. Tyson just peer for her, hoping that. God feels. Cut paper peoples 10. They're not real. The shape inside my. The bad things are behind you. I am the little king gal. Only you. Kisses and gloom on your dress. The lady's life. Killing the future time. Feather light.

Speaker 10: It's like I fell into drinking my life into. And then it was a. Dream on. Looks like a filling. It's so. Something taken from me that ain't real. It's just a dream. My way. 1st and stupid. But now?



Severe global warming impacts. Tohono O'odham ceremonial person shot 38 times by Border Patrol in Arizona at his front door. The Loop: How Technology Is Creating a World without Choice by Jacob Ward.. 45 minute interview with Darcia Narvaez by Evan, Kathan and Jamie.

Speaker 1: We're on Twitter at KWA Sports. Join us again for our next episode tomorrow at 6:00 PM, right here on KWVA Eugene 88.1 FM.

Speaker 2: When no.

Speaker 3: One thought the man was free, free in life, the way he thought his life should be.

Speaker 4: Freedom now the people, the people.

Speaker 3: Don't have the power to change things anymore. Don't have the power. To change things anymore anymore. When they ate the. Came a man. The time when no one thought of. Least the man is free. Free to live his life the way he saw. Life should.

Speaker 4: Be out of out of.

Speaker 5: The views expressed on this program are not necessarily the views of KWB, a radio or the associated students of the University of Oregon. Anarchy Radio is an editorial collage providing analysis and opinions of John Zerzan and the community at large.

Speaker 6: That's right. You're listening to KWVA. Eugene. Hello. It's 7:00 on Tuesday. Time for anarchy radio. We've got John in the studio. We have a special program of interview today, and it's going to be fun. We're going to get to that. In just a second, we have some music from pop while we get ourselves situated.

Speaker 5: Hello there. Anarchy Radio for the 23rd of May. And as Carl mentioned and was announced last week, bulk of the hour will be a conversation with the Darshan Navias very worthwhile. Some friends put that together and I guess they won't be calls during that but. Very, very worthwhile stuff. I've got a few things to sneak in before we. Get into that in just 5 minutes or so. World Meteorological Organization predicts record heat in the next five years, with far reaching consequences. It was the end of last weekend yesterday, that same organization. Declared that because of El Nino and climate overheating, there will be yes heat records. Heat in quote uncharted territory. And you know now in India. Air conditioners are necessary for survival as it gets hotter and hotter. But that of course adds to the problem of global overheating. Meanwhile, fatal floods in northern Italy, whole towns underwater. And at the moment this Super Cyclone Malwa is about to hit Guam in the South Pacific highest. Water in decades 4545 foot waves nearby already. An interesting story about rice. Rice is in trouble as Earth heats up. There's the front page. Story yesterday and of course billions depend on it. But there's not enough water. There's too much water. Rising seas nights are too warm all the. Stuff that has to do with global warming. Coming down on the various rice fields around the world. It turns out that New York City is sinking under the weight of its skyscrapers. Under the weight of civilization. Yeah, more. More risk of coastal flooding, some parts worse than other, lower Lower Manhattan, Northern Staten Island. Also, well, parts of Brooklyn and Queens also. Sinking pretty fast. Yeah, they're pretty worried about that already. And of course. Indonesia's capital Jakarta not only sinking, but being abandoned. You might have read about that as uh. The capital. Is going to be relocated. It's yeah, 800 miles away and new capital. So long to Jakarta. And I find it interesting it's been more attention to Jenny Odell's book saving time. Yeah, kind of pivotal, it's it's. I think it's good. It's worthwhile that, that's. Being talked about, thought about. And here's a line. One of her lines that kind of sums it up. Our time management obsession risks undermining our humanity. Pretty strong, in other words. That's how alienating time is. And how? It stands over us. All the more. And see what else? Oh, here's got to get to this one. This was commented upon by Ophelia Rivas. In fact, I'm wearing a. Oh, to him shirt. And that's West of Tucson Laudem people. Raymond Matya, a traditional otome person, a ceremonial person was shot 38 times Thursday night, standing in the doorway. Of his home. And Ophelia said he was not an aggressive kind of man. He was not violent. And it is said. That he had evidence that the Border Patrol was in league with cartels to smuggle drugs across the border. I don't have any source on that or any follow up on that. That just could be the motive for that killing. And here's a dirty little thing and I I am surprised that nobody. Sent it to me. Noam Chomsky had financial dealings with the. Late sexual predator convicted predator Jeffrey Epstein turns out he moved money around for his friend Chomsky. Big amount of money. Kind of a scandal there. I don't have time for much in the way of resistant snooze, but I. Saw a piece about Earth uprisings. That's a group. It's a network. A video from France. Calls for defiance in the face of state repression, the formation of base committees and defence of the Earth, and the spread of eco sabotage, movement across borders and social divisions. And here's an even newer book, by the way, the loop how technology is creating a world without choice and how to fight it by Jacob Ward. It's not real strong about how to fight it. It it tends to talk more about policy on the part of tech corporations, these patterns that. Are manipulating and you know the the basic stuff too about algorithms to predict what users users want based on what they already have told them all on Sunday what they want, what they buy. And how autonomy is undermined and people are just along from the ride for the ride. Well, way more on. The bane of existence, especially among youth social media, which is used by 95% of 13 to 17 year olds. And another piece about cell phone use smartphone use. And underlining this finding that the younger you start, the more. It's going to. Be bad news for your emotional development. Your mental health later on. Lots of people have their kids begin using a smartphone before the age of 5. Let's do it in a nutshell. But E sports is kind of fading out if it's going to be so hot. Not so popular. Not the next big thing in entertainment video game teams. You imagine anything more boring? I can't. Well, here is the interview, and I think it'll speak for itself. Have a listen to this.

Speaker 6: Well, we we may have to. Try a different way to do this. We're going to, we're going to take a little break.

Speaker 7: I've been navigating my waves, reality of a godless existence, which at this point in my life. By myself. I don't care about nothing for you. Guess it doesn't matter. Your little songs are getting way too literal. Damn subtle, keeper changed. Get a loop with that wall. Feel, feel. At all. It's alright. The flash wound you said you never saw coming. I'm pretty happy. It's pretty good to feel something. I care about something.

Speaker 2: This meeting is being recorded.

Speaker 8: Hey folks, Lucian here. I've been a longtime listener to anarchy radio and occasional caller, and I'm happy today. To be joined. With frequent Co hosts Catherine, as well as frequent contributor Jamie to bring you this special. Segment of Anarchy Radio. Today, we're also joined by special guest. Marsha Narvaez. Some of you may be familiar with darsha from being a contributor 3 times. I believe to the podcast last Born in a wilderness which a lot of us are fans of. Darsha is a professor of psychology emerita at the University of Notre Dame, Fighting Irish. She's the author of over. About a dozen books, I believe. Including 2014's neurobiology and development of Human morality, 2019's indigenous sustainable wisdom, she writes a regular column for Psychology Today. She's the host of the website, the Co creator of the film breaking the cycle. And darshan's work. Focuses on world development and human flourishing, as well as evolved parenting. So. Welcome to you, darsha.

Speaker 9: Thank you so much. Pleasure to be with.

Speaker 8: Darsha anarco primitivist thought for a long time, has been interested in the topic of child development and parenting. One of the immediate precursors precursors to modern and primitive thought was a fellow named Jacquemont who became disillusioned with the idea that the working class. Would ever revolutionarily change society into something sustain? Unable and so we thought that we need to sort of find a way to leave the system of capital and focus on having a healthy, sustainable society where children didn't grow up with repression later. On that sort. Of influence gut came to be shown. With Gene Wedlock's book The Continuum concept, which was widely circulated among the green anarchist community, was reviewed in green Anarchy magazine. I myself, in the the late 2000s, was fortunate to be part of an intentional community focused on rewilding and parenting or unparenting, as we called it, was a hot topic for us to sort of implement some of these sort of evolutionary strategies. Now one of the frequent criticisms we hear as anarcho primitivist is we're accused by some of being too essentialist, that we're asserting. Some sort of. Baseline that doesn't exist. We hear this, for example from David. Graber and Wingra in our book the dawn of everything, who kind of assert that there's no social baseline of of human egalitarian. Similarly, we may hear that when you assert that small band hunter gatherers serve as a psychological baseline for what it is to be human, how would you respond to that sort of criticism?

Speaker 9: Well, I think scholars today typically kind of just pick out of. The air. A baseline. They usually pick the last few 100 years or among moral morality people. It's the ancient Greek. And all that is like. The last 1% the the 1% of the 1% of our existence on the planet, I think it's much more responsible to look at the whole history of humanity, the deep history of humanity, and see what we were like over the course of evolution and how our speciation about 300,000 years ago, what we became. Then it's called Homosassa in Sapiens. And what we how we thrived. How do you know what a creature is like? Unless you look at the optimal functioning of that creature and we we're concerned about that for dogs and race horses, right? Why aren't we concerned about that? For human beings, we kind of forgot what the context for proper. Healthy development for a human being is we we pay attention to plants for those things, right? But we have to remember now that we too are Co constructed by our experience, more so than any other animal, pretty much because we're more complex. And more so than chimpanzees, we have more epigenetic things going on. And so you have to understand that we are so malleable in those first years of life that it really matters what kind of environment, social environment, especially the child is raised in. And that's shaping their personality. It's shaping how well their body. And brain work. For heavens sake, let's pay attention to the optimal way of raising human beings. The the places that that promote our fullest capacities, and it certainly is not today.

Speaker 2: Oh no, I'm curious. Kind of listening to Evan and his question the way it's formulated is the I've lived through. I come out of the 70s, I've lived through a period where the modernism post modernism, you know, Marxism, Leninism. Maoism, anarchism, and anarcho primitivism. This whole trajectory of change and. Somebody when I read your book like it gives me an interest in like what, your personal journey that led you to kind of imaginative ways of looking at. You know the the anarcho primitive is thought or or. These kind of theories. Post you know postmodernism in a in a. I would say in a literal translation of that term, like coming after modernism, there was a book farewell to an idea and the whole revolutionary advocacy and revolution and, you know, share the wealth and and this kind of thing that that developed and was part of that. Cold War. Scenario of the 50s, Sixties, 70s, eighties, 89 and and now we're living through this period of of change within the nation States and. Years all over and increased wars and and all that kind of stuff. I've talked too much, but I'm trying to get back to like I recognize Notre Dame has a history. You, your book, even neurobiology and the development of human morality in the 90s. In political circles, it was very unfashionable to talk about morals, and I I'd be criticized if I was talking about like, well, that's just a moral argument. So there was this whole. Post modern rejection of any known known. And and and in. In some ways it's. It's evolved into into philosophy departments and and real changes in education. You know, just just huge amounts of change that are to the mechanistic world worldview. Once again, I'm talking talking too much. I think I'm. I'm very curious. You're you're well grounded. You've many awards in academia. You're coming out of Notre Dame, which is not considered, you know, by many a progressive. It's a very elite institution. They have a good football team, my father. Loved them. So there's a good movie about a very humane movie. After about one of the players. So I'm curious how you got to where you are and your appreciation of small band hunter gatherer, you know, your personal journey.

Speaker 9: Well, it's actually a long and complicated story. I'll try to make it very quick. My earliest memory is of a child being poor, unjustly treated. And that forever seared in my mind, there is something wrong. I spent half my childhood in outside of the United States, where there were children my age selling gum on the street corner in rags, and then I would come back to the states. We'd go away for a year and come back for two years and go away for a year. And coming back, it was like abundance. Hundreds of kinds of cereals to pick from. And, you know, it just didn't make any sense to me. So ethics was always concerning to me from a young age. I was interested in things, so in college I was a music and I became a church organist. Organ was my major, and I taught in the Philippines, and I became a a well. I went to seminary looking for truth. There's the truth. What's wrong with? The world and seminary didn't have the right kind of. You knows whoever had the loudest voice was the one that was listened to. It seemed to me. And then I kind of I went off on my own and had my own business. I became a Spanish middle school teacher because I'd grown up speaking Spanish. And finally I found in the middle of that the field of moral development. Wow, this is it. I'm studying that. And so I got my PhD at the University of Minnesota. Where they hired me there and that field worked on moral reasoning. You know how people think and, you know, make a decision and then act from will, you know, and all that stuff. And that became quite unsatisfying because of course, I've discovered all these other fields, anthropology hunter. Another child. It's effective neuroscience, animal neuroscience, and how we're mammals and mammalian brains act like this. Discovered Alan Shore and the neurobiology of Interpersonal relations in early life, and I put it all together, it all kind of slammed together with the Iraq war, people going to war for no reason. It made no sense. What's wrong with people that they would do that and it all kind of came together in this idea, what I call try and ethics. Where we are shaped in early life to be oriented to, to be attracted to particular ways of being, and when you're under cared for, when you don't get your needs met as the baby, you're going to be highly stressed and easily threats react and then you're going to be attracted to that ways of being because that's what you know and you don't know this egalitarian. Fluid dynamic way of being, which our hunter gatherer ancestors and cousins exhibit all over the place. That's that's human humanity. That's the nature of being human is the flexibility of tuned into the natural world to one another to be able to be. You know, negotiate and collaborate and be communitarian and collaborators across with nature and. And so, anyway, my neurobiology book, the book proposal was a certain way. It was about presenting all this neuroscience information. And in this morality. And it led me to realizing, Oh my God, we need to return to hunter gatherer ways of being, because that's how we grow our human nature and and that's what we find in the among indigenous traditional indigenous persecution folks. That's where primal wisdom is. That's how you shape it in early life and you honor it and nest what I call now. Evolved nestedness and you need nestedness throughout life to maintain your humanity. So anyway, it's been a long, twisted story and pathway to get here.

Speaker 2: Well, I think I think another thing that that resonated was your description of that, that, that early childhood and development, the whole safety effect that, that, that really. In many ways the the problem or or contemplating the the mass violence and the mass shootings that in the present day now it's like every they get what we get one week of that being the headline story because we have a definition that over 4 constitutes a mass shooting. And so it's one of those within the culture. And so maybe you could talk some too about what is the safety ethic, because I think that that that was very good explanation or understanding of how the, what's the culture. In the civilized societies that were operating within and and what's kind of basic law?

Speaker 9: Right, I called it the safety ethic at 1st and then the engineers started to criticize me for that because safety is a good thing. And then then I called IT security ethic and then the attack. When people criticize me so. Now I call it the self protectionist. So that's all about, you know, your your whole desire is to feel safe and you're oriented that way. You see things that way. Your affordance is what you see as possible actions, what rhetoric is attractive to you and these things get seated in early life when you leave babies to cry, you leave them alone and a crib to sleep alone. This is very counter to our mammalian heritage, to our way of constructing the safety. The continuum that gene wedlock talks about, you need to maintain that sense of connection. Throughout life, and if you break that connection in early in childhood, early childhood, Oh my goodness. You've now broken their sense of well-being. And it's incredible that we think that's OK. But, you know, the Western civilization is all about this connection all the way through in every way, every way you can imagine disconnection because we're just objects, you know. And when you wander through the world with the world of objects, not relationships, it's all about relationships, of course. So. The safety that comes from the sense of disconnection, the inability you don't grow the capacities then to get along is you've you've been disconnected as a baby. You think that's normal, you have to protect yourself. You go into protection. Protectionist ethics, racing against the world. Just automatically. You've lost your free will. Your parents have distressed you or the community, the it's the community's responsibility, not just the parents. The community has to support the parents so they can. With the baby and and so that baby now has lost free will they go automatically to threat reactivity and then if you've given them guns or some other tools handy when you're in that mode, you've downshifted to pre human capacities of territoriality of US against them. You know you have to be #1 nomination. So that's what the protectionist ethics about. And we're promoting it all over the place, right? That's what the Western civilization has just done. Like eradicating all these beautiful integrated communities of relational focus relational ethics, and then breaking that all into little individualism is right in the sense of controlling, wanting to control and dominate and win.

Speaker 10: Darsha, can you connect some of that also to the stress response and then also detachment?

Speaker 9: Yeah. So the stress response when that kicks in, the blood flow shifts, it shifts away from your higher order thinking to your muscles or flight right or fight or if that doesn't work, you go into the freeze response and you and you dissociate. I mean that. So the stress response system is is meant for acute situations when you're running away from the lion. Right, Run, run, run. And if you can't run, then you try to fight and that fighting doesn't work. Then you go into the freeze state, the parasympathetic system kicks in. And and then you dissociate. So abused kids, abused people going to this dissociated state where they're kind of somewhere else. Derek Jensen talks about when he was abused sexually as a child. Talking to the stars. You know out there because he's not gonna be in his body now. So you're training children and not be in their bodies to not be present right when you abuse them or when you under care for them so the stress response is something that's. The the thresholds and the patterns are set up in early life based on experience, and once that sensitive period goes by, you're stuck with that unless you work so hard. You know, with meditation and other forms of self healing later to get past that easily triggered stress response. What was your other? That detachment? Yeah, so. The other thing is, if you're left alone a lot. All right, let's imagine the baby. You leave the baby alone and they feel scared or they need something and they start to cry, cry, cry. And if they cry long enough, let's say the parents come because they hear the baby crying. OK, they learn now they're crying works. So they're gonna cry more easily. So you're creating a personality that's kind of irritable, right? What if you leave? The parents have been told. Oh, you should leave them crying. And then you'll have been control, you know, and make them sleep and. And you just so I've had parents e-mail me. I had a I was on a plane. Got a text from a parent and says I'm sitting here after my wife went back to work after three months. We were so good to our baby and now we were told we have to sleep train her. I'm against the dryer because we were told just put her in a room and let her cry herself to sleep. Put the dryer around so you can't hear her. And he said I couldn't take it anymore. So here I'm holding my crying baby. What do I? Two. So what happens if you do let the baby cry himself to sleep? They have to. They're now disconnected, right? They have to go into that dissociated state just to stay alive. They have to stop crying or they're gonna die because gonna use all their energy and they have to go into dissociated state. But most of us have parents were inconsistent who left us to cry. And then then you'd have to figure out you not, not you. Don't go into dissociation, but you you figure out that they're gonna come. So you're gonna stop and then you stop trusting them. And So what that does is it puts you into the cognitive way of thinking. You don't ever feel your feelings anymore cuz they don't work when you express your feelings. The parents don't respond. You shut up. And so in my family. Emotions were not express. And so that's in a family that that's focuses on achievement, right. So you go on your intellect, go onto your, your detached way of thinking, I call it detached imagination. And we have a whole Western civilization built on detached imagination where you have a you make up these models in your head and they use logic and reasoning and convince the other people who think like this and oh, yeah. That's really good, but. When you apply to the real world, it doesn't much work right and you can see this with all the. And environmental scientists who go and try their models when they're, you know, dealing with particular animal wolves or something. And the wolves don't act the way their model does. What's wrong with them? Right. So detached imagination is what we think is reasoning is good, is being human is to think well and pass the. Tests and get pays and all this stuff. Human it's an aberration of our humanity, and most of the major world religions and philosophies say it's very dangerous to stay very long in that mode. In the thinking mode, because if you still, if you stay in that thinking mode, you're going to start to think. That's who you. Are as human being. That's a very dangerous tool. And so that's what we have enhanced in the Western world for those kids who make it through school, they think that's the way to be human. And so those adults want to teach babies how to read. No, no, no, no, no, because the right brain is the one that's developing in early life and the right brain is about relationships and connection and immersed understanding of how things work and dynamism and empathy and higher consciousness. And that left brain, which is about reading in English. And left brains about school and left brains about the world of all these. Adults that run the world. Guided by those, the fearful, insecure, deeper feelings, the self protectionism, so the self protectionism, when that's highlighted in early life and then you add the imagination, your abstract thinking, then you can be vicious and controlling of others. And detached imagination is about. You know, wanting to control because you don't feel safe unless you have control.

Speaker 10: Using the title of the paper you wrote with Mary Tarsha the missing mind. Contrasting civilization with non civilization development and functioning. Can you talk about the non civilization? Development and functioning as you understand it. Coming from the aspect of small band Hunter Gap. Numbers and how it's different in a general level.

Speaker 9: Yeah, I think we've identified a few things. There's probably many more, but. E Richard Sorenson, the anthropologist, was a film he started the filmography approach to anthropology. And he took. Videos, films of all sorts of what he called Pre Conquest Peoples. Around the world. And he said he realized later that he couldn't really take in what he's experiencing. He had to watch. The films over. And over to realize the different way of being this socio sensual intelligence that they have this he called it an individualistic, individualistic unified at oneness. He couldn't come up with it. There was no term in English, right? So he came up up with that, where each person's kind of, you know, autonomous and doing their thing. But so connected that they could understand what the others were thinking or feeling and and coordinate with them. And he has some amazing papers about that. What young people are able to do with storms and and just maneuvering a boat through the storm or or fishing, you know, jumping through the air and all this stuff because they're so connected to nature. And we don't even understand what that's like anymore. Lost so many skills and capacities I. Because we we wall in children, we wall them in a crib or a plastic carrier, they're they're sitting in that all day instead of wandering around and enjoying and building their sense of connection to the. Natural world and. To others and multiple others, there should be more than just Mom, a mom and dad. It should be, you know, ways of. Of that child learning to adjust to multiple others, human and and other than human. So one of the things that Marvin Brand has pointed out and others, I think Morris Berman. On a capacity that pre conquest people have is to DE differentiate, there's just an assumption of feeling connected and and and unified with others. That's more of the the default rather than this differentiation that we do with subject object and you know, categorizing people when we meet them, are they. Fatter than me or taller than me, or smarter than me. Whatever it is, that whatever category that your your family has emphasized over the years to you, you know, skinnier, fatter, prettier, uglier, whatever it is. And that's left brain stuff, right. So what we see then in, in our ancestral context is this whole integrated brain capacity using intellect one you have a problem to solve temporarily, but most of the time you're in this integrated brain where you feel connected in the flow of dynamic flow of life. And you can move and. Through and you, you know your way around without using a mental map model. You just know it physically. It's all embodied cognition. You're enacting your your relationships because you know that you're Co constructing life as you.

Speaker 8: Some of the things that you talk about as being part of what you call the evolved development niche or the the evolved nesting involves lack of stress in the the birthing process, breastfeeding to the age of four on average, positive touch for you know, as opposed to the. Negative touch. A lot of children experience and. Allow parents self-directed play. Is the breakdown because it seems to me and a lot of other people like the dysfunction and modern civilization is accelerating at at at a frightening pace. Does this reflect also a breakdown in that evolved nesting? Are we not doing those things? More recently, and compared to 50 years ago, 100 years ago.

Speaker 9: Yes, it's accelerating. We degraded nesting, but it started back with some when hierarchical civilization came about, because then people were forced into laboring right wage labor or slavery. And then you're you're not able to take care of babies in the way that in the nested way. And so. The rains shifted. And you're in a crisis mode. I think all the time. Then I think we've been in a crisis mode for 10,000 years, at least in those civilizations. And when you're in the crisis mode again, your blood flow shifts away, right? You're higher thinking and things don't develop properly. And then you, you're just Orient trying to get through the day, you know, just trying to make it and have a good night's sleep or something to get food on the table. All those things are just horrid. This is not the way our hunter gatherer. Cousins live at least they've been used. And it was a really enjoyable lifestyle that, you know, where you shared and you were generous and you knew that you were vulnerable and they were vulnerable. And so you were together, but you were not afraid so much of death like we are. That's left brain stuff again. Because it's very ego oriented to be afraid of death. But to understand that this flow of life you're going to be here again. Grandfather. You know the newborn, his grandfather and reincarnated. So you better respect that newborn, for example.

Speaker 2: I I think one one of the positives I took from your book, the whole idea of self office authorship and how we can change ourselves and cultural norms. And we've spent a lot of time talking about infancy and childhood development. And and how that changes with in Hunter gatherer societies and and attached different ways of being a parent or being a mother. That or in community that that are essential for. You know a a redirection of humanity. However, the the adults, right, the the current, the current in the current cultures that we're living in, I I see your background. You see my background, right? We're living in sedentary households and cities associated with institutions and all that. And I think I think it'd be nice to talk some about how not just the individual having a safety ethic, but our own society. You mentioned the Iraq war, and to me there was the acceleration of the dysfunction the, you know, the radical acceleration. In our time such that that the age of fear, the age of terror, the the culture is one of. Of death and die? I mean, it's a it's a hopeless jump off the Cliff lemming type thing. And I think the the salvation. If we want to use bad terms. But but the the the the transformation, the ability to self author and to change our culture. It becomes. How is that done and and some of the things just that that Evan just mentioned in terms of infants and child raising and breastfeeding and that applying it to the cultures that we're currently living in and how how that collective consciousness? The the same things that when we talk about the individual. In this in civilization, then the culture. In civilization and how that can be self authored different and and I think that's where you start to get into like extension, engagement, essay and collective collective resistant.

Speaker 9: Right. Yeah. So the engagement ethic is our heritage, which is what you exhibit when you're well raised, when you are nested, you're able to be present with others to. Develop a unique interpersonal dance with that person every time you see them, right? It's a newness instead of a scripted Ness, which is if you're in a insecure space, you use a script to come to to relationships and you you figure out if you're dominant or submissive in this moment or not. Or you know what the rules are. You you have. This inflexibility or rigidity that you bring because you don't, you don't have the skills to be flexible or you're so scared you can't even let go of those scripts. So the engagement ethic is about being present. And I think that's how we transform our communities. We have to be present to, to the other. That means we each have to. Make sure we know how to calm down and the longest chapter in that book is about what to do if you were not unnested yourself, you didn't receive that early nourishing, nurturing care that helped your brain develop in the optimal. Hey, and so you have to learn to calm down with belly breathing and the meditation. Whatever it is, there's. All sorts of things you can do. And then you have to learn social joy. So in my classes with undergraduates college students, we would learn folk song games because I was a music teacher and we would play these folk song games together. And then so they have to hold hands. And they're looking at each other and they're singing. So their vagus nerve is getting tuned up because that's. Related to all the major. Organs of the body, so good health. And then we would go teach those to kindergarteners and then they would play with kindergarteners and they would just see the joy and delight of that child that. Child likeness that we as adults can return to to that joyous time. And then so you need to calm down and you have to learn to be able to be flexible, flexibly attuned and music is a great way to play for anybody who who feels, you know, stressed out. And on on social go play with a young child is what I would say or do. Music. Something you have to do in the right in the moment, or else it falls apart. So that's music or dance or playing with a young child that's growing your right brain that's growing your empathy. It's growing your higher consciousness. It's growing your capacities. Then then we can use our imagination, our abstract thinking based on that rather than on these scary, you know, little bracing against life, a little kid things back in babyhood that we. Or our pre human capacities to be dominators.

Speaker 8: That reminds me of just your concept of of self-directed play being so important because so much of what I see children having access to is script and play, right? It's the parents bringing children to soccer practice and then to choir practice and then it's. It's already laid. Out for them. And it seems like that is connected with a sense of victimization or lack of confidence. Perhaps as as child ages to to not have. This sort of self direction.

Speaker 9: Yeah, it's kind of a helicopter parenting. I think helicopter parenting comes about because first, the parents are told not to nurture their babies, and then they, their children are kind of dysregulated as a result. And so then they move in to try to help the poor child, who's so unconfident, lack of self esteem, lack of whatever. Because they missed the sensitive periods and so structured play well, it's better than no. Way, but it's not what you need to build the brain. In the same way self-directed play, you have to learn to control yourself and not be too aggressive because your playmate will stop.

Speaker 0: Playing with you if.

Speaker 9: You if you're too aggressive, right, and you have to react to the unexpected behaviors of your playmate. All this is great. Your executive functions the prefrontal cortex development and turns genes on for well-being and social capacities and leader things leader related to leadership.

Speaker 2: Another along those lines, I say playgrounds though in terms of, you know, the subtle not not really visible people don't even think about how hierarchical, how directive, how authoritarian presence of those are as opposed to just the field. By a stream or a boulder in the Meadow with something I would.

Speaker 9: That's it. The adults want control. I mean, they feel so insecure themselves. They want to control everything, and their kids. And that's part of. It and then we have the. The legal system. Right, you Sue everybody all the time. So that I guess that that wrecked playgrounds in Germany, I think because people started to sue if the kid got injured on the playground. And so the. Yeah. So it's really crazy adults have.

Speaker 2: Gotten, not. It's also the whole thing of like when a kid walks and. Sees that in front, it directs it. Closes down your imagination. You're directed to stairs to climb up, and then you slide down and then you repeat that again, again and again.

Speaker 9: So different from going to a forest where you, you have to decide what you're going to do. There's a tree. There's a. Log there's, you know. Yeah, a lot more creativity.

Speaker 10: Before we run out of time. I wanted to ask. A a broader reaching question that I think is really important to the listeners of anarchy radio. So in the paper you wrote David Witherington Witherington. Getting the baselines for human nature development and well-being, you talked about how the four shortened view of humanity that most academics. Leaders and political pundits operate with leads to a downwardly shifted baseline for human functioning, missing the higher order capacities of humanity. And what has been adapted for humans? Cooperative sociality. Whose complexity takes decades of developmental support to fully attain. And So what I really wanted to ask you about is this idea that it takes decades for this. Level of consciousness to. To evolve and begin operationalizing, you know in. Respect to the. The evolved developmental niche, etcetera, you know my opinion is that this is really unlikely to take place at any high level in. Side of life ways that depend on the dominant economy, and I've mentioned to you before in other conversations that there are some communities rewilding oriented communities and some of the primitive skills oriented people and so forth that are really focused on trying to get in these positions where. You actually have community oriented alloparenting. Where there there are. Groups of families living in one location that are trying to step out of the dominant economy to the furthest extent possible. And shift away into an actual aloe parenting condition. And I just wanted to get your comments on that, knowing that that is actually occurring amongst some people and and and how you think that? That what you promote can play out with inside of the inside of the the dominant economy or not.

Speaker 9: Well, that's a big question that last. One, let me. Just say I I really applaud the move to have communities with multiple age, our parenting going on. Our brains are still developing. Actually I think probably till age 60. And for a child that those first. Three years, five years, six years are really critical, but there's another time that's really sensitive and that's early adolescence. I used to teach middle school and their brains are deconstructing and reconstructing themselves. So that's a time when you can move in to make repairs from what might have been missing in early childhood. But then late adolescents, also college years, are also quite malleable still. And until about age 30, that's when the executive functions supposedly are finishing up. And that's empathy and foresight and self. Control in various. Ways you know, the car companies don't. Don't. Sure, young men very cheaply until after age 25 because they know this, that they're impulsive, they still are learning to be fully in self-control. But even in age 40 and 5040, for men and 50 for women, the brain is learning to synthesize and integrate. So there's a lot. To look forward to actually. So I think at every age we need those older mentors. We need the elders to help us. Because we're always learning, there's always more to learn and we need the guidance of people who are wise anyway. And in terms of the, the larger society, I think that's. Completely upside down, right? There's the focus on youth and beauty and forget the elders. They're all washed up. Just put them away. So that's very upside down compared to our heritage.

Speaker 10: Just like. What I find is is that it's so hard for parents to be able to. Engage in. The practices that your work discusses when they're just in the. Route race, yeah. And and now and now beyond the route race, people are in a position where if they're not just hooked to their screens and on the Internet all day. Then they can't even get by in society. And to me that just seems so detrimental to the capacity to actually pay attention to children and parent and be able to to share parenting duties with other adults and so on. It's just. It's just catastrophic to me so.

Speaker 9: I agree. I think we have to pull back and want less. If you are a family that's in the the rat race. Just get less stuff so you can stay home with one person, can stay home with a child and move in with the extended family. Hopefully you get along right and and build your own aloe community Alloparenting community around you, but it takes a lot of energy to do these things. That should just be there. Right. In our ancestral context, you don't have to work so hard at getting the support cause it's built in here. We have to do all that added on being a parent, it's quite a lot of. Extreme stress, I guess.

Speaker 8: About what we need to make in our lives, the changes we need to make in our communities really, really large and that's sort of our project, right, so.

Speaker 10: How about lastly? Go ahead. Well, we have two minutes.

Speaker 2: Well, I want I want I want to hit on on the whole when Darsha was talking about song and and hanging out with the the school children in their class.

Speaker 10: Maybe take one minute.

Speaker 2: This is putting people in contact with that that the whole sensory engagement and the disconnection from the screens and the the mediations between what is human and what is sensory, what is sing dance, you know, move your body. That that that's an important for. For being a complete whole being.

Speaker 9: Absolutely, yeah, especially in the natural world to go out and and hug a tree and and lie in the ground and dance together outside and just be. Feel the energy universe loves you, right? So feel it. Let it in and and honor the plants and the animals around you and respect them and ask permission. These are all things our ancestors knew about Native Americans. Talk about. We have to get back to that.

Speaker 8: Well, I think that's an excellent note to close on darsha cause I think we're we're about out of time. But even though this is a recorded segment, I I hope that listeners do feel free to call in and share their thoughts on on, on our topic today because enter key radio is a A is aired. Live so everyone. Thanks for for joining us. Thank you so much darsha for for doing this and being generous with your time. And as you said on your your closing remarks there, I hope everyone can sort of get reimbursed, hug a tree outside and. And and and and apply these lessons to our lives.

Speaker 9: Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 8: Appreciate it.

Speaker 6: All right, well, that was it. OK. It's been anarchy radio. We'll have some music to go out with and have a great week. We'll see you next time.

Speaker 7: Sitting around and thinking there's more like it.

Speaker 0: With this.



Kathan co-hosts. Big recall fever. Broken sociality. Where is the social in a landscape of loneliness and isolation? The Age of (Techno-) Acceleration. Doug Rushkoff jumps ship: gives up on the internet. "The social fabric is fraying in a thousand ways," David Brooks.Growing global fungal infections imperil planet's food supply. Darcia Narvaez interview next week. Two calls.

Speaker 0: Next you'll come.

Speaker 1: Up here in just a few moments here on KWVA 88.1 FM. You've been listening to quack smack on kW VA. If you miss any portion of the show or just want to listen again, you can find the full show recordings online at KWA Plus, we're on Twitter at KWBA. Sports. Join us again for our next episode tomorrow at 6:00 PM, right here on KWA Eugene 88.1 FM.

Speaker 0: I'm I'm. Bills on the.

Speaker 2: The views expressed in this program are not necessarily the views of kwva radio or the associated students of the University of Oregon. Anarchy Radio is an editorial collage providing analysis and opinions of John Zerzan and the community at large.

Speaker 3: That's right. You're listening to kW, VA, Eugene, it's time for anarchy radio. We've got some music to start off with here. We're we're getting ready. Sorry.

Speaker 4: Like like.

Speaker 0: It's fine.

Speaker 2: And if we had Tammy and 12 inch, then that's what it was it. Was playing and. His Kathy, and it is energy radio from May 16th.

Speaker 5: Here I am down from the big city again a.

Speaker 2: Good, good, good.

Speaker 5: Pleasure as usual. You want to go.

Speaker 2: You know well, this is just an odd thing to start with, but. It seems like a crazy explosion of recalls. I mean, I don't know why even stick these in. There, but it's. Maybe it has to do with the? Global collapse? Things but.

Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah. There you go.

Speaker 2: I'm just going to. I just want to mention it. China recalled 1.1 million Teslas on the weekend over breaking risks. Today, over 200,000 jeeps were recalled. They may catch fire even when the engine is off. And last Friday GM recoiled almost 1,000,000. Vehicles life threatening airbag defects, meanwhile, Peloton recalled. Two days ago recalled 2 million exercise bikes, dangerous exercise bikes and General Mills. About 10 days ago, flower recall due to salmonella. I mean it's is that where you're coming to or nothing? Nothing works. Everything is dangerous.

Speaker 5: And as as you said, with collapsing society, those recalls and no surprise, you know the stories and this grows and and where where the problems are coming from like flower with salmonella you know but but creating antibiotics if you oh, This is why. Civilization is good. We're so advanced we can cure salmonella with antibiotics or whatever. So The Jets 22. Anyway, rambling on, I wanted to be to be sure to put in a plug for I believe next week's show you're going to broadcast the interview. The that we had number of people with Dorothy Nora's eyes and. You know, I just, I just can't advocate enough her writings and her insight. I was taken immediately with neurobiology and the development of human morality, evolution, culture and wisdom of recent book that she put out, and then one of the interviewers, Jamie, had circulated some articles as well. That she that she was a part of riding her or coming out and and she's just just a a very significant. Although with a very significant voice and insights that that people ought to check out and pay attention to, and I was going to link by promo for the interview to Mother's Day as a as a way of doing the interview we'd initially talked. I was going to interview her and and one of the advocates of doing that was just like 2 strong female voices, which, hey, that sounded good to me. And and Mother's Day has just been here and so. But we didn't do it that way, didn't we? Conducted it much more as a conversation and. Putting together my my stream of consciousness, talking and chatting and thinking, one of the lines had I had. Underlined and wanted the quote and tying this together. Was this prior to the gradual emergence of herding and farming communities? Over 95% of humanities existence was spent in small band hunter gatherers, which are still present. These societies are matrifocal where motherhood and the feminine principle of life were respected. The focus is on meeting basic needs and living well within the cycles of the natural landscape with high social wealth rather than emphasizing hierarchical power and competition, which may have first started to appear with the practices of herding animals. Anthropologists are coming to realize the centrality of mothering and child raising in our ancestral environments and sciences, increasingly noticing the matrifocal, egalitarian nature of ancient societies, not only among First Nations, but civilizations. Such as the early Egyptian and Minoan. And and and goes on and on and and one one thing I totally appreciate in in reading. North Eyes ridings or the things she's collaborated with is just her very. Broad, broad approach to to questions in current society or concerns or problems we identify in in the world that we're living. And her approach is just so multifactorial.

Speaker 3: I want to interrupt you for a second. Artemis just called in a little while ago and he said there were some noises on the stream. Like what? The guys before we're talking about. And so if we tell people to move to stream, two people who are, I think, listening online are having that problem.

Speaker 5: Oh, OK.

Speaker 3: So on line there's two streams are stream one and stream two and if you are getting that noise you should just switch over to stream 2 because I think that one. Is a lot. Better. Thanks. Yeah. So Artemis.

Speaker 5: Thanks, Clark. Thanks Artemis. Also, I'm wondering the previous people in the studio said the other maybe I should try and switch microphone. OK. Thank you. OK anyway.

Speaker 3: It doesn't have anything to do with your microphone. Yeah, you're you're all good.

Speaker 2: That will be most of the hour next week. Sounds like terrific 25 minutes.

Speaker 5: I hope so. I hope so.

Speaker 2: You know this much needed work. I mean that's that's a voice that's such a pleasure to have discovered this during the past year here. As the estrangement is so palpable, what is that cliche where you could cut it with a knife and you just. We're bombarded with with the obvious. Like something from last born in the wilderness. I love that name. Last Friday, Nate Holdren. It's a piece called broker associate sociality, isolation and the pseudo return to pre pandemic pre pandemic normal. In other words, the deep loneliness, the absence of the social, really, you know, like we were talking about before. Yeah, by the way, Speaking of loneliness and thanks to C for this one from the new daily. Recently in terms of. The impact of loneliness as a as a thing in itself. Studies show they're talking about low energy. You know, I I don't know if I think of that right off the top. That's a function of loneliness. No energy or. You know the the. Absence of energy, the entropy, all that sort of theme is. And of course, other health problems as, as we know, there's all these studies and articles.

Speaker 3: Is there any fair call?

Speaker 2: Oh sure, I guess so.

Speaker 3: We have Matthew on the line.

Speaker 2: Matthew there. Hi there.

Speaker 6: Hey there, John. Hey, thanks for taking my call. Hey, you have to bear with me because I'm really not very well read on your voluminous writings. Basically my question today is kind of. Are the constraints on our species that we're calling domestication? Are those an inevitable like byproduct of just complex language? Whatever made that? Our rise in our species. Like his domestication in inevitable like byproduct of language, I guess.

Speaker 2: Oh, interesting question. Well, the symbolic that they once either descend into the symbolic symbolic dimensions seems to coincide with the coming of domestication, or whether that's. Somehow accidental or not, maybe it's. It may be decisive. It may not be, but that's the kind of thing that. Yeah, it it. What? How do these things emerge? You know, what is the origin? You know, that's that's a big question. It's so, you know, different strains of thought on that. But I.

Speaker 6: Right.

Speaker 2: I think that you could make the case. You could see it as a as a function of the symbolic. You know starting with time and time consciousness and which has come to colonize us so terribly. You know, all the way along till now and and the rest of it as well. And you know we were we were talking about the. And anarchy book by Sasha Angle and very strong effort to get to the origin of reunification. And there's, you know, proving it ever more deeply is just fascinating to me. And, you know, how does that work? Tying it in with writing, you know, iteration, the repetitive nature of writing course language appears before writing or say, but. You know there it's part of that. You know, part of that. Developing dimension that. It, you know, ends up kind of crowding everything out and that's not been a happy story, you know, I mean. It's not a progression.

Speaker 6: On on on that note, just thought experiment if if say a culture was to sort of demonize writing and be strictly oral in more modern. And do you think that would help stave? Off some of the unsavory. Things we we deal with now, it is part of culture that we stuck to no writing.

Speaker 2: Oral cultures do seem to be. I think you would say more healthy and more more connected with the world than each other before writing it's I think that's been demonstrated fairly well.

Speaker 5: I think I think it's important though to point out from where we're at it a rule against riding. You know you're you're talking about modern society. You're talking about burn, burn, book burning. OK. I mean present day application. Is a part of the conversation and the critique I would say. And so I think that. Writing and the effect on memory and the artificial, you know, the generative artificial intelligence systems that are currently a hot topic in, in the world, we're living in all relates to how these questions are answered.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you bring up important. I don't know if the.

Speaker 5: Applications, right?

Speaker 2: Yeah, and coercion, I mean, that's.

Speaker 4: I don't know.

Speaker 2: Why? But that's sort of. Strikes me as one of the. You printed this one of. Rule the world and coerce people into blah blah blah. Well, I don't think that that of the color had that in mind either. But you know, it's not about coercion, it's about abandoning it, deeply alienated structures of thought or something like that. I mean it's I think that would be. Or the goal, or you know the way.

Speaker 5: Right, right. Well, and people understanding and developing consensus that this is not the way to to survive, to exist, to leave this collapsing.

Speaker 2: To approach it, maybe.

Speaker 5: Civilization is collapsing culture. Where in that, that abandonment of traditions that don't support and empower memory and and functions and memory and and that you know, I'll just go back to Darshan Arviz as the author. That kind of a whole holistic view of what is homosassa in you know where we're at now and what's happening to where we used to be that that puts us in this hell hole of the the culture that's dominant in in my life.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 5: Matthew, what do you think of that?

Speaker 6: Well, I I I deeply appreciate about about what you said about memory. I think that's such a a fascinating point where. Nowadays I feel like it can be shocking to see, you know, wonderful feats of memorization because we're so we're constantly delegating all of our faculties to technology. But you know, you hear about children that you know are 8 years old, that recite the entire Mahabharata. And it's like, well, that's how we're wired. That's how. That's like where we come from. But if we're constantly relying on these like you're saying, writing and these other technological enterprises, it's like it's almost like we don't get access. Our full humanness. And yeah, yeah, I really appreciate you taking my call.

Speaker 0: OK.

Speaker 2: Thanks for calling us. Thank you.

Speaker 6: Thank you. Bye bye.

Speaker 2: OK, baby.

Speaker 5: I think it's so encouraging to hear. Like you mentioned, Sasha angle. What is it? Sasha angles. Yeah, and his his writings. What we were going to mention you. We can mention something about contemptuous.

Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we could get into that. That's.

Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, like you say, encouraging, you know, new lines of thought and new challenges. And uh. Yeah, it kind of came out. Of the blue. Maybe I could just read a paragraph because as the intro here. The contemptuous idea communicate number one and this, you know, it hits you right away. These people are pretty unhappy with the intricacy seeing and what's wrong with it and why you know, that sort of thing? Well, this is early on and this this kind of hit some of it, it's certainly the threat of it and the. The feeling of it too, we the contentious, have each been self expressed and active anarchist for well over a decade for some of us in extending to several decades for others. But when we enter explicitly anarchist spaces like an occupied zone of mass protests, the book Fair Land Project to Social Center, a group house, etcetera. We to greater and lesser extents depending on the individual and the circumstances, feel less free. We feel we have to watch our words and refrain from joking. We feel many subjects are beyond discussion unless we are willing to risk a screening argument, we feel we have to assume a fistfight might develop over some minor or imagined slate. We feel calmly and normal blackmail, reign supreme. It is for us, a very bitter. Irony that we experience random conversations with normies at a bar, perfunctory exchanges with various people we encounter in daily life, or small talk with whomever in a checkout line or workplace is more open discussing spaces than the supposedly sober and self critical anarchist know you. You know that's that's pretty biting and I think that's one of the things that rotten, by the way, was getting at. You know you can't even start to discuss certain things that certain people will be offended and so forth. I mean, I don't think it's an easy, easy answer to it. But you know, here they're opening it up, you know, like, are we? You know, suppressing freedom with each other or not.

Speaker 5: Well, and I I thought in in that article in in some way there was some reference to the planned anarchy and the whole relationship of of a bigger view than the anthropocentric. All humans are this way. And we're all going down. Instead of like recognition. Well, maybe some humans are this way. In civilization. This is how those Homosassa piens are. But in fact, living systems, whether they're plant or animal. R&R cake. They're mutual cooperation. You know. There's, they have memories. They don't. All right, they don't all speak. You know, there are other aspects of what is life and living and and being fully alive.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you. You hit the learn of it there and when. You get away from. Ratifying, objectifying stuff. That's that isn't free, you know, it's. And he doesn't claim to have, you know, easy answers about it either. But it's a very interesting exploration that pushes this further, I think. In a very. Good way and some of this, by the way, is as I was discovering and. Being it has been in Oak magazine, you know, parts of it is he's drawing on trying to push his own work further.

Speaker 5: And Sasha angles. He was in Oak Oak Journal and number. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: That's what I mean. Such an angle? Yeah, he's drawing on his own. Staff to try to, you know. Push it further and.

Speaker 5: And isn't he? The the author of the the OR the creator of of the new alphabet that minimized. Yeah, yeah. Spacing the alphabet.

Speaker 2: Smashing the alphabet. I think that was his first book. And yeah, this kind of leads on from there. It's not. It's not so much about the problem of language, but. Yeah, very good stuff. And by the way, if you go to April 12th, anarchy scroll backward and you can find the. Where you can find it? I guess we're switching topics and sorry to be confusing, but that's where the contemptuous communique was published and and then also Artemis's response to it.

Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: But as far as the Sasha angle work, that's OZ and starting with, I think starting with issue 3, three and four, bear on on his work.

Speaker 5: And and doesn't he have? Recently? It's been published right by LBC or something, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right. Give credit to a little black card. They've shown some. Good judgment there for sure. It's not simple stuff and it's not. Everyone's going to vote for it, so to speak. But been very worthwhile and say.

Speaker 5: And just backing up, I'll say that's where I think there's some some positive indication indications of new imagination, new critique, new thoughts, you know, new ideas being passed around.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I mean the old saying 1 swallow doesn't make a spring but. I know really. I've I've too find this. There's some fresh stuff going on in the new voices and new possibilities. Some of these folks and. As I said, you will be put out to pasture, so there's good new stuff coming on, that's for sure. Meanwhile, you know we have to cope with this. Horrible social landscape and troublesome persistence of anorexia by Pamela Paul. Recent New York Times op-ed. Girls are twice as likely to have mental health problems. It's not just about anorexia, it's it's about depression and. Various medical studies self harm among teenage girls, which has tripled. Between 2000 and 2014. Already very scary now. Yeah, link to the bigger the fuller picture of of you know. This sand landscape. David Brooks. Speaking of American capitalism, he's no he wouldn't say he's anti capitalist, but he points out that is the line from his piece on the 21st. The social fabric is freeing in 1000 ways. That's pretty, pretty clearly.

Speaker 5: And just pick up on that the whole the regular reporting of the mass shootings, the mass, you know, the violence in this collapsing civilization is just, you know, a depressing. You know, I like to not go too down on the dark side, but. It is really rather overwhelming the the the recent subway killing where you basically. Ex. Marine can strangle somebody in full public view and not be arrested. You know for for quite a delay in the period of time there was an article just the other day commemorating move, you know, Philadelphia. So some some of the recent. Recent like hidden paths that people don't know about that survivors and move frequently. The in the not too distant past, we may be doing public speaking engagements. I just saw an article on some attempt. I'm trying to find it because it's like how many years, 40 years since the outright bombing and killing.

Speaker 2: Well, the public speaking here, we brought Ramona Africa.

Speaker 5: You know, did it.

Speaker 2: To you and gene, it was, it was a wonderful stuff and and one of her brothers that can't think of his name. But that was marvelous to get to hear from her. Eugene, important by the way, remember of Portland State that she spoke at? Yeah.

Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm. I'm struggling through to find this in my pile. Sometimes I am too much so, but yeah. Yeah, no, the violence, absolutely going.

Speaker 2: Good. I could mention one just. I'm sorry to wrench the topic away. Again to change this, but environmentally one plus during the week I I noticed there's all this stuff written about the Great Salt Lake. Right next to the Lake City, of course. And how it's just disappearing. It's evaporating. It's going to result in all this toxic dust. That's going to be blown away and it'll be horrible. Not only no lake, but just poison in the air. Well, that's not happening because of all this. Back, you know. Records no back, so it's filling up again. So you know that's sort of no surprise. Well, we could. We could take a music break now. I guess it's halfway through.

Speaker 5: That sounds. Yeah, that sounds reasonable.

Speaker 2: OK.

Speaker 4: Cut the dough. From your cup. I've got it done. Drinking from. Your cup. Come take you. You said just bring it up. I've got no future. My day is a few presents. Not that pleasant. 11 things to do. Path of the past would last me. But the darkness got that too. I should have seen it. It was red. Behind your. You're young and it was pride. No smoke, no cigarette drink, no. But that's always been your call. I don't miss it, baby. I got no taste for anything at all. I used to love the rainbow. And I used to love you. Early morning. Pretend that it was new. But I got the darkness baby. Got it. Burst in you.

Speaker 2: When you're done making a comeback there for energy radio. You know, one thing that's pretty timely and I didn't realize this. It's not a brand new term, but almost. I'm referring to a New York Times piece last Friday the 12th. David Brooks, writing about the age of acceleration. It's fairly recent. You mean he didn't cook it up, but. You know, and he's mentioning. He's kind of getting on to something. Here, he's wondering whether it isn't his onrushing technology. All the chat bot stuff and the rest of these AI systems. Possibly as transformation transformational change as the Neolithic Revolution and the Industrial Revolution. He's seeing it as that momentous. As AI boosts the information age into hyperdrive or unchartered waters, whatever you want to say about it, with consequent disruptions in his mind, he's wondering whether they rival that of the. The the horizons of domestication, or industrialism and the.

Speaker 5: He's being he's being too, too gentle on it because I think that that acceleration is pretty much being recognized by a lot of people to be altering what what it means to be human, you know, saying I mean. And really altering and and people in industrialization. The physical altering of biological matter, you know, like is. Is pretty pretty benign compared to to what we're doing to our bodies and our life systems is as one life form on on a very rich planet.

Speaker 2: Oh, that's a really good point here. I think you that could be very much true that it's much deeper than these other ones even where.

Speaker 5: It's so profound. I mean, it's so. The final battle in many ways.

Speaker 2: Well, it's also a little bit sanguine that some people are jumping ship, so to speak. ID didn't remember Doug Rushkoff in the 90s. He was a huge Internet booster, wrote a bunch of books. Big tech optimist. Well, he's changed his tune, looking at what you were just saying, you know, in terms of what's at stake, what's going South? If you will, I mean. That's that's kind of. Nice. Maybe there'll be more trainers to. You know people that are. Not on board with anymore.

Speaker 5: Jumping ship. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Speaker 2: Because he was a very big time guy, he was all over the place.

Speaker 5: Well, who's that? Who's that guy, Jeffrey Hinton, or whatever the grandfather of it. And I think. I mean, I think Brooks is right. But he's also like, he's liberal. He's too, he's too low key about how alarming and how outraged how, you know, the implications are way more than industrialism.

Speaker 2: He doesn't have any. OK, that means what? What are you going to? What are you proposing? You know. Of course, there's nothing. There's he's not. Three hands off, even though you know that's the funny part of these, these things, you know, you deliver the verdict, you deliver the goods. And then you.

Speaker 5: You deliver the goods and you wring your hands instead of acknowledging that we're talking about minor. Priorities, we're talking about minorities, conquering humanity. You know, we're we're talking about. The whole history is a different way of living on the of being a living being on this planet and planet and of mutualism in a way of being that is so different than this lonely. Suicidal, homicidal society. Civilization that were. Our framework of David Brooks in the New York Times is, like, so benign when it's critical of what what's currently in existence.

Speaker 2: Yeah, at that at that level, it is a deeper level.

Speaker 5: And collapsing.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's valid. And you know. All the consequent stuff, I mean, there's now there's a bunch of articles about. There was a piece of advice yesterday about lithium mining in Nevada. The gold rush. It's white gold. It's lithium, you know, so. Also boron and yeah, hmm and other, you know, scarce things. Well, the vice article points out that how about the endangered plants and fish and so forth. It's giving up for the damn lithium. I mean, so you got to solve the climate crisis supposedly by furthering the extinction crisis. I mean it, you know, it certainly doesn't make sense.

Speaker 5: Right. And people are even getting hip to that. You've got Mccrone meeting with Musk, you know who? WT WWF is Musk, you know, and and and his agenda and Macron calls for green paws and Biden now. I mean the whole, the whole green, green energy and just slide on over to. Where is this lithium? Where are they going to be contesting like Southern Oregon? Like Northern California? Like, pay attention. Find these sites. Shut it down before it's too late. But that's where that's where the David Brooks and all his cohorts, they'll just, they'll report to you. I think Wall Street Journal today, automakers invest to secure metals for EV's. And the whole this whole electrical vehicles, the amount of liberals who are driving. My Teslas you know, and I'm thinking that's that's that's anything that's like oh. David Brooks. I'm just. He's the name you mentioned, but like, there's a whole cohort there, minority. Is that not a call? OK. Oh.

Speaker 3: I don't. I don't know who that was, but there was so much noise I couldn't tell what was going on. So maybe if they're listening, if they turn off their radio and move to a quiet location, they can call back. But I couldn't understand what was going on.

Speaker 2: But it's cool.

Speaker 5: There you go. Well, continuing on the topic of environmental stuff, there was just an article, I think yesterday, Wall Street Journal, again, toxic water at Camp Lejeune linked to Parkinson's and. That that certainly caught my eye because I had a background in in healthcare for a number of years and there was a cohort that came up at 1 hospital. I worked in Chicago of just a unbelievable amount of healthcare providers who had Parkinson's and it just was. So, so apparent and all. And so now, like so, so many of the diseases that the Western medical industrial model is treating are caused by the civilization that that's been created and so and Parkinson's to your list. Very tragic kind of thing and we're looking for a cure.

Speaker 2: And we know what the cure is. But that's not a lot.

Speaker 5: That, but you're right, exactly the curves. The sad end of life. Really. How do you get there?

Speaker 2: That's another staggering thing from the independent. Thank you, OC. The rise in fungal attacks this is obviously because of the warming. Quite amazing is the threat to crops worldwide due to fungal infections estimated to destroy 10 to 23%. Of annual global. Output and it's getting worse as the temperatures. Get ever higher as you go north. The more the planet is involved, more fungi. That is a problem, you know, confined to southern regions, it's spreading towards the North Pole now, of course. So that's incredible. That's a that's a gigantic. Impact the world's food supplies, I mean. Not to get into the whole topic of domesticated agriculture, but I mean. You know, there's just no escaping it. It's just it's. The failure of civilization is this disease that just to ramp and then on every front.

Speaker 5: Well, and and what's what's what's causing the failure is is generally swept into this whole narrative and written history. We can say this, this or spectacular society reported, you know, whatever. Multiple causes. That the things that are being reporting then and claimed as victories and such are are caused by the civilization, and so right now many people are feeling very comfortable and happy with look at COVID I know, got my look at COVID. It's become nothing. No big deal. We're all safe. Who declared the? Pandemic over WHO declared the pandemic. It's over and operation warp speed. What a day. The COVID maccini you know, impacts livid. All these kind of things. We've got it under control. We've risen above it once again. Yay. Technology kind of thing. It's just like this just started. And distorted and irrational thinking.

Speaker 2: Yeah. And you can just look at it case by case. We're awash and plastics. The oceans are awash and plastics is ubiquitous.

Speaker 5: Or rational over rational thinking.

Speaker 2: Verticals and their lungs and everywhere, everywhere. Well, the answer is recycling, of course, right? Except that every day. I mean, all this ubiquitous of plastics, even in our brains. Now, there's a study about that. The ubiquitous forever chemicals, for example, plastics go away well, it turns out the study in England shows that the process of recycling plastics makes more plastic in the air. So it's it's the same non. Solution. Obviously you know. If they, if they knew how to do it better, they they would. But it's so far and nothing.

Speaker 3: OK, Artemis called back.

Speaker 5: Hey, Artemis.

Speaker 7: Hi, how are you?

Speaker 5: Good, good, good to hear from you.

Speaker 7: Likewise, I just wanted to call in. And do some. Some good anti graver talk real quick.

Speaker 2: Oh, good. You're a little bit low, could. You get closer to the mic, man.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Is this better?

Speaker 2: Yeah, better. Thank you.

Speaker 7: Yeah. So are you familiar? You might have mentioned it, John Dowdy's Ultra social.

Speaker 2: Yes, yes. Been hearing about it big time.

Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm waiting for my topic to come in. I find something interesting and I've been talking to Jamie about this. him and I have been have been talking a lot recently and he made a good point that. You can tell Graber. And his work isn't radical at. All because you find it in. Any common bookstore? There's so much written. About and how great it? Is and all this and that, but you can't find anything. Very little is written about Ultra social. You can't find it easily. Barnes and Noble. I find that really interesting that the.

Speaker 2: Very telling, yeah.

Speaker 7: Right. That it's are. You as an anarchist, really that radical. If if it averaged put stores just more than willing to carry you than anyone's willing to just prop you up is a profit of the modern era or whatever people want to push them at, you know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very transparent. It's just a a racket. All these, all these various kinds of liberals just love it because he's. Is aligned with civilization. Basically, you know, the bottom line is is, you know, as Jamie points out. Yeah. And that's then you can just like it reminds me Paul Kingsnorth, and it's striking me. Yeah, you throw in the towel, you get a great big long article in the New York Times magazine. You might as well have a photo of them painting over a bag of cash, you know, to some sleeves. And it's just as it's just as bad as. This is bankrupt.

Speaker 7: Right. And I just, it's really disheartening because I'm starting to find that those the debates or the ideas found within graver, even if people are reading them, it's starting to seep into the main discourse, which is already making our discourse more difficult. You know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, well, you know. One difficulty, I mean some of this is is difficult. Because most people don't know much about anthropology, so he's telling them what they want to hear, and they don't have the anthropology to question it. Or to you know. Decide against the stuff he's citing and it's too bad. I mean, you don't want to pull rank on people. Well, you don't know any anthropology, so. Hell you. You know what I mean? You can't do that, but. At the same time, it's. There's some pretty common knowledge stuff, and he's just talking out. Of his ***.

Speaker 7: Yeah, it's just it's just so strange to me, but I did. Notice is that gaudy is ultra social, was almost is almost sold out on Amazon right now, but it says 5 copies left. We'll get more soon, which is also hoping that people are interested in reading it.

Speaker 2: Terrific. Oh, terrific.

Speaker 7: Yeah, given given how big Amazon is in, in book selling and everything else, right, to see that it's selling out, it's that's good. That's that's a good. Sign to make the call.

Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's it sounds like, you know, right up there with Darshan's book and just really important stuff.

Speaker 7: Yeah, so I just figured, you know, I didn't have anything profound beside there was a chachi and not a Chacha PT, but a word processor at AI that they use something similar to an MRI. I don't quite know how it works that basically it will translate your thoughts into words without you having to type them.

Speaker 5: Yeah, that's been that's been an ongoing one that they keep floating. That is some great positive development and for somebody whose spinal cord has been suffered. That is a, you know, that's quite an accomplishment to be able to be somewhat functional by your thoughts being, you know, able to be translated through machinery. However, you why your spinal cord has been severed is most likely a motor vehicle accident or some such.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 5: Watching it happening and once again when we're talking about numbers, when we're talking about social good or ultra social, you know it's it's just like, yeah.

Speaker 0: Right.

Speaker 7: Yeah. And with that, I think there was another one that like in VR or something comparable that rats can move things with their mind using a similar software, again translating thoughts of course. And then they just said the rat can't consent to that, right, every every advance we make is at the expense of something of course. But that's the part. They don't want you to see, right? You just get the end products. How? Wonderful it. Yeah, sure. Not the background.

Speaker 5: Well and and translating thoughts is not happening. We're translating information. That's all we're translating and that like these little finer points matter.

Speaker 6: Right.

Speaker 7: Right. And cousin, I think, makes a good point that you. Know it it. Dips into the whole well, are we trying? To say, well, people. Can't have this, but you know and it gets into the interesting. Conversation of are people. Are you autonomous because you're not relying on people, but aren't you still relying on something you're just relying on the labor of others? If it's really interesting.

Speaker 5: Isn't somebody digging the lithium?

Speaker 7: Right then. Or if you're still relying on a system. Are you independent? And I guess that's an interesting discussion. But of course, as the contemptuous mentioned, you can't talk about that because then it's, oh, you're stabilised. You know.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one of the ways of shutting stuff down.

Speaker 7: Yeah. I just.

Speaker 5: Yeah, that goes back to the contemptuous, you know? Yeah, where you know, where you can't actually discuss ideas.

Speaker 7: Yeah. And it's really unfortunate if you looked at, if you look at the comments on energy news, surprise, surprise, not a very degenerative place, but one of the.

Speaker 5: The fleecing of thought.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, props that they published that, but the well their, their whole thing topic of the week how how can you guarantee you would have no depth whatsoever you've you've tried out a new one for novel day that different theme, a different question every. I mean it's just sad.

Speaker 4: OK.

Speaker 2: And and of course there are comments the board is. You know, it's like grade school of humor or something. You know, they have these little feuds and. And their mother's basement or something. That's just awful. But they and they strive for nothing else. I mean, it's like the people on the right, that sort of, you know, have the have the right wing audience. You know, the mega or whatever it is, you know, you get what you ask for you, what you program.

Speaker 5: Well, and you know, going back to. The first part of this show, and it's like face to face discussion, working with people, real life, you know, real life involvement and written word, the more distant and the more lead us, the more separate, the more you know non inclusive. All these kind of things. Determine that's what you get. You get to. You got your little anarchist news and you got your your podcast or whatever. Like beat your tail.

Speaker 6: Right.

Speaker 7: Right. And what I did find interesting is that one of the contemptuous authors is it, you know, they they do speak in the plural. And one of them, whether it's one person saying they're many right or if it is, several people actually did respond to my response.

Speaker 5: Talk to the choir.

Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 7: Which was interesting saying that, you know. Like, hey, this is good. You know, there are things to clarify, like there's and I got the impression that they kind of had the division of Labor, some people. Wrote others is. That, I agree. I think the point whichever one it was is about like I didn't like how they were talking about trans people particularly. And they're like, yeah, I think that's a. Good point because. Whoever wrote that should clarify, and I find that interesting that again about the. Freedom of speech for the latter better term. To express within a shared piece, right? And that you know, they're obviously willing to engage, right? Because they and I were going back and forth, but anarchists, ironically, for all their conversation about freedom, don't want you to be able to talk about certain things, which is just so, so funny to me. They'll weaponize. They'll weaponize identity or political correctness. They'll they'll be inseparable from liberals. Unless you just kind of asked about the state. The way I've been joking is the only difference. You know, less liberal or a less liberal and left anarchist is 1 calls themselves an abolitionist and the other one that defund hist. And that's about where the differences end.

Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's.

Speaker 7: You know.

Speaker 2: And the lack of access, the lack of media to use that word, I mean, that's pretty ridiculous. You know what? Just a reminder, people can do podcasts. They can maybe a lot of anarchists live in college towns, maybe get a radio show. You know, you got to reach out to people, and that's that's immediate.

Speaker 7: Right.

Speaker 2: I mean, they're, but they're more direct, you know, interpersonal ways. But you know, we we have to have a public discourse, a conversation in society. At some point, I mean, otherwise we're why, why play this game?

Speaker 5: Well and.

Speaker 2: But we got to wind. This up, we're running out of time. Thanks for following.

Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah. As my as yeah, as my last self plug, I just did it my own episode on uncivilized with Steve Kirk about oath and some other things. So people should check that out if they want to listen to it. Fairly decent anarchist podcast.

Speaker 2: For sure. Hey, well, be well. You know, I was just going to. Say that myself, I mean the. In fact, that was. I was wondering you. You haven't called lately and that's you got your own stuff going on. And yeah, the new podcast with the Oaks, Steve and the one before that #24 with flower bomb. Who does war zone distro. Yeah. Fantastic stuff. It's yeah. Reaching. Reaching out to the, you know, first of all, the people that are participating in this and trying to, you know, make it better.

Speaker 7: Yeah, I appreciate that. You have a great one.

Speaker 2: Take care.

Speaker 5: All right. Well, that wrapped up that. Hour pretty much.

Speaker 2: Sure. Yeah. I and I look forward to the 45 minutes. Of course, Genovia's next next the 23rd. And that'll be nice. I we have just a few minutes to maybe squeeze in a few things, but open the door for that and it's, I do appreciate you all who made that happen and did that conversation.

Speaker 5: Well, and and I would encourage like get the book you know, I I didn't listen. I was part of making the thing with other people and I hope it's a good. Good representation of of some of the richness of your thoughts and and the only author is not graver.

Speaker 2: We decided to go.

Speaker 5: Anyway, thank you. And we'll see you next month.

Speaker 2: Thank you, Katherine. Yeah, that's for sure. And be willing to. Thanks for listening.

Speaker 1: You see yourself.



Hair-trigger violence: "Why Are Americans Shooting Strangers?" Mass shootings increase and occur in other countries. Surgeon General: a more and more lonely and isolated populace is a public health crisis. "Chatbots & the Apocalypse" by JZ. 'Godfather of VR, Geoffrey Hinton: AI might eliminate humanity itself when it controls its own codes. Has Social Media Destroyed a Generation? by Jean Twinge. Action reports. The Contemptuous' fine critique of the Left in all its guises.

Speaker 1: You've been listening to quack smack on kW VA. If you miss any portion of the show or just want to listen again, you can find the full show recordings online at KWA Plus, we're on Twitter at kW, a sports. Join us again for our next episode tomorrow at 6:00 PM. Right here on kwva Eugene 88.1 FM.

Speaker 2: You're listening to KWVAU, Eugene. It's about 7:00 it is. Time for anarchy radio. I'm here in the studio with John. The number, as always, is 541-346-0645. I think we have music from Steely Dan to start with tonight. Yes, there's Steely Dan. This is from the record. Everything must go.

Speaker 3: Attention sharpens. Cancellation date.

Speaker 0: Yes, the big.

Speaker 3: It's just a few miles away. To do your shopping.

Speaker 2: At the last mall.

Speaker 3: Need the toll stars as I.

Speaker 0: And the medicine for the Blues.

Speaker 3: Sweet treats and. Surprises all the little buckets. No shopping. Sunset special. You have to do it for yourself. And the going gets tough. Check out girls. Goodbye ride the rap the three-way.

Speaker 2: The blood.

Speaker 3: To do no shopping. We've got a sweetheart, something special.

Speaker 4: You video May 9th. I've missed the last two episodes going to try to get back in the groove here. Alice had mental valve surgery, open heart surgery almost two weeks ago, but she's. Doing well then probably get discharged from the hospital tomorrow. The next day. That's been good. The recovery has been good, so Kathy will be here next week, the 16. And yeah, might as well just jump into this. One topic lately. All this hair trigger violence. For example, Washington Post article called why are Americans Shooting Strangers? In any of these cases, somebody comes to the wrong driveway or rinse the wrong doorbell or whatever, and it gets shot. There is so much anxiety and fear out there. The social fabric is fraying. You know, let's face it, that's that's just another aspect of it. And and you wonder what are the grounds for this getting better? I mean, that's kind of your bottom line question. And obviously the companion to that, I guess you might say is the. More mass shootings. And now I would say I think there's probably a consensus that it's going to get even worse. It's going to get worse and worse. Last Wednesday, 9 dead 7. Injured in Belgrade in the capital of Serbia and the following day, another mass shooting somewhere else in Serbia. They even have mass shootings until they do, until it starts. Then I think I've said before, this isn't just America, this is spreading. Yeah, it's kind of amazing. Another. Part of the said terrain and all Kentucky Derby, that's always the festive deal. The hats, the bourbon and the whole deal. Big deal. Seven resources. Lost their lives in the nine days prior to Kentucky Derby. And good. All right, Churchill Downs. And this isn't just this big attention to that big race of the year, but. They've also in California at the various tracks in California, it happens all the time. And you know they're. Called Thoroughbreds, right. There's your domestication. Monica, right there. It's it's a crime. And they they're supposed to be the fastest, so they're they're at the same time, bred to be very light. So their bones are thin. To maximize their speed and. It's just a sad crime of domestication. I don't think they. Used to talk about it that much, but either it's getting worse or finally, it's getting some notice at least. But those are amazing figures. You know the emotional landscape and new film, for example, released, I think on Friday or at least reviewed last Friday, anxious nation. Right there. It tells the tale in itself. Anxiety is an epidemic among, especially among American youth. Doesn't sound like this film has much focus or depth, though, actually, but. At least the topic. Is apt is timely. The new novel, by calling Lynette called users. Kind of more on the old anxiety beat. It's about virtual reality. Search for, meaning that kind of thing. And a warning about the future. Landscape of technology. It's funny, it's in the Sunday. Newtons review books. By Jesselyn Chan Jessamine Chan. Who identifies herself as a Gen. X Luddite. So she has taken a look. With some suspicion, of course. I mean some. Opposition to the techno future. Just today is. The New York Times piece today on the 9th from the Surgeon General. Americans have become increasingly lonely and isolated. Amounting to a health crisis and, you know, this is nothing new. That's the decline of social connection. One's on one's phone all the time. So anyway, the article goes nowhere, actually just. Councils people to reach out, to volunteer to be not so isolated. You know, if it were that simple, that's what would be happening. But it's getting worse, not better. Even though on one level the answer is obvious, but but not really. Boy, I've just got a whole lot of echo kind of stuff. I don't know how much. I'm going to. Catch up with and far as this goes, but. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just going to kind of jump around here. I do want to get into the tech stuff. With some attention for sure. And then this little chat bot thing. It's just very spooky yesterday. Peace in the time said, if some dangers posed by AI are already here, then what lies ahead? Yeah, indeed. Well, the picture is for more autonomy, this digital intelligence, so-called. It's taking over more and more and moving towards some form of autonomy. With these LM's, for example, large. Language models. It's gigantic amounts of text. And there was an announcement today. From meta. They're they haven't. They haven't figured this out. They haven't rolled it out yet, but they're working on something called image bind. Which is an AI model that links various data streams, text, audio, visual. Even temperature and velocity and stuff like that suddenly works. To create multi sensory content. So that sounds pretty metaverse like, doesn't it? Yeah, all these projects, some of which are bearing fruit. Have already. Have already come out to play and millions are already. Involved. I want to just I want to column for the weekly hasn't appeared yet, but uh. Just for a little background, very short piece here. I called it chat bots in the apocalypse. In the past few months, there's been ledge interests on settling interest in the arrival of chatbot technology. With similar position to replace most human capacities, the new artificial intelligence based machine learning chat bots beginning with ChatGPT can write essays, scripts, novels, produce art, etc. With the push of a button. Who needs humans? High tech advances in quotes are swallowing both leaps and bounds, apparently. Jobs have long been outsourced, made redundant by cheap labor elsewhere. Now, as thinking itself that is being outsourced, not the thinking itself is at work here. With algorithms and an almost unlimited amount of data information, millions of computations can draw on vast available inputs to assemble answers to many, many questions, sometimes incorrectly. It's a highly sophisticated machine operation, not actual thinking. In 1950, the mass genius Alan Turing predicted that by the year 2000 the culture would be dominated. By a resemblance to machines, not, he noted that the technology. Would have by that time evolved to human like resemblance, but that people would become more machine like. The appearance of the chat bots and their range of capacities contrasts with our decline. We have worse health, mentally and physically, physically fewer skills, less autonomy. Faced with the machine, we're losing more ground. Little wonder the new tech freaks freaks us out existential panic. Even a deeper question may be emerging. Namely, is the value or meaning of the entire symbolic. Dimension up for grams. Is it that symbolic culture maybe isn't worth so much if it can be seemingly so easily replicated? It is at the very foundation of civilization. The civilization is now crumbling on all fronts for all to see. The apocalypse is arriving in tandem with the technology that is its medium and motive force. Apocalypse is a word that announces A revealing so much, in fact, is being revealed at the same time that the dominant culture works to keep the revealing from becoming a danger to itself. We're trying to sum up some of that stuff. And this guy, Jeffrey him, he's worth mentioning. He won a Nobel Prize in 2018. For his computing. Well, from when he produced. He's he's called. Since then, the godfather of VR. He provided some foundation for that. And so he's been in the news. He quit his job at Google so he could speak freely about this. Even to the point of saying that he's LED a detrimental life, a life that was false because he contributed so much and at first, he said, well, some. If I hadn't done it, somebody else would have. Which is true, but that didn't. It wasn't satisfying to him. The fact is, he did it very centrally. So at the same time he he gets a lot of attention. Weighing the toxin on this but. Last week, he said. And we got to. You've got to control this before it's totally. Out of hand. Which could even involve threatening humanity itself. If AI. Completes its course of writing and running its own code. That's the autonomy bit, of course. And then he says. But there's no way to stop or even pause this AI trajectory. I mean, how do you control it if? You can't even. Slow it down. What? What's the? You know the answer is simple. I mean you've you've got to be a Luddite. You can't just talk this hot air about controlling it when you're the other side of your mouth admits. But it's the autonomy is already there in in so many ways. I mean, in other words, the it's autonomous technology. You know. There it goes. And meanwhile, there's this film and TV writers strike the Writers Guild in in Hollywood. And then you run into it already. I mean, if the chat bots can do the scripts. What? What good are they? I. Mean what? Why should they? Good period of living wage or whatever I. Mean. You know, it's these things are have practical. Impacts already, definitely. And by the way, ChatGPT. Which is. I mean this. Kind of thing requires staggering amounts of water. I may see a Riverside study. Thank you, RC on this one. And it's different over the years by billions of people, and it's just. You know the others. The underside of this. It's the same thing with. Cryptocurrency or any of these high tech things. It ain't cheap. It don't come free. Not even close. And the other side of it, which I just referred to is. Is of staggering importance. But then you get the practical. Reality of it as well the the old nuts and bolts part of it. But and you get the other people that are just fine with it. They're just fine. It's. Well, last Tuesday in the New York Times. There was a piece called Adair for art students and embraced the machines. Art professor Larry Wyler at Columbia. Said AI generated arm is just fine, it's just another facet of creativity. Let's face it, he said. There's no choice. You got no choice. Are you going to put it back in the bottle? So embrace the machines. Yeah. It's all over in that sense. And of course, there'll be people. Like that? Who? You know, they don't have. A problem? They've they've copped out all their lives, and now they're they're they're changing their. Deal now. And along those lines, also last week, another New York Times piece by someone who identifies as π. My emotional support chat bot and this is. You know, conceivably. Even worse, very insidious. It's very deeply invasive, I might say. Then spinning out these manufactured answers or products. When it gets down into the heart, my emotional support chat bot. Those 4 words are. Yeah, you have melded with the machine. And the. Very important piece, getting some notice to my gene twinge has social media destroyed a generation? Get back to the youth. What do you think the answer to that is? This is from. Last month, but. The review of a novel called death of an author. It's a learning history, but you know saying this is the same old. Topic really death of an author by Abin Marcin. It's about 3 chatbot programs where author and AI become one. And it's just exactly what's happening, isn't it? You know, in the backdrop of it, I mean there's there are sort of rivals going on, I mean the. All his layoffs in the tech industry and the disinterest in the metaverse that's not getting off the ground. And then it's hitting meta the corporation. UM. You know, it's it just has all of these flaws. To put it mildly. And this gigantic SpaceX to the Tesla outfit SpaceX. Launching the Starship about 10 days ago. The biggest rocket ever. Well, it blew up about two minutes into the flight. Yeah, this is about 10 days ago I think. And you had the biggest one ever with the most pollution, the biggest fallout, the biggest rupture there in the Texas desert. Pretty ugly stuff, but we only got to pay the price. To do more and more ugly stupid things. Yeah, the Starship of trying to this is, but they know the names recede. They kind of comes out of focus where early on already while they're trying to assess the impact of the explosion. On the earth and in the local communities, etc. On wildlife. I wonder how much that's going to really. Be taken seriously if it hasn't already been forgotten. The particular emissions spread far beyond the expected debris field. Not to mention the blast of itself well. And all these things. And then you have the Japanese spacecraft orbiting the moon, which crashed two weeks ago. That was. Another big flop over there. Right about the same day, a critical antenna is jammed on a Jupiter bound. Launched by the European Space Agency. Another fail on that one. Well, with social media. Blue Sky's the new social site, kind of like Twitter, I guess. When they're trying to make these, they're always there's always. The idea to make things more participatory, you can get. You can keep the racket going if you get people to be involved. More and more on their own, or at least somewhat on their own. It's not doesn't take place in a vacuuming. People are conditioned and being engineered to do this stuff. But. This blue sky plans to be a decentralized system. And people will may eventually be able to build their own apps and communities without it. But wasn't that the premise of social media in the first place? Which somehow went horribly wrong. Doing it, I mean connect with your friends, your family. This is going to be very cool and and enabling and connecting and everything. That's not what's happened. I mean, is this kind of an interlogic there, I'm afraid. But they are trying to get this one off the ground. Boy, I don't know. I may have to try to come back to this after the break. You know, we're not at the break yet, but I I'm really. Straining at the bed here to. And some other things that are maybe more salutary, let's hope. I want to. Mention plant anarchy. New book by Sasha Engel. This is really amazing stuff. Plant anarchy. It's kind of literally the the idea of the book and it it it made me think somewhat of spelled the sensuous by David Abram. And it's hard to kind of grasp or sum up. It really contributes a lot in my opinion and it's more or less the idea that plants may be the real model. Not the symbolic, and he's deepening even his critique of language symbolism. I would say, calling the Mazing book. Anyway, plants as. In their own right as a community, as as a means of communication among themselves as a variety, and then some people have kind of leveled at this a little bit. How plants and trees and so forth are connected. More than we knew and. Yeah. So he's trying to shift this over. Into this other dimension in terms of. I want the same model exactly but something like that for anarchy. And another real bright spot, know if you've run across that. Some of you may. Have can you can number one from the contemptuous sounds like rotten. And this is a full on in depth critique of the left. We've had that to some degree, but this is. Very serious and encompassing look at it. The varieties of ways that. We can succumb to the left. You know these the ties that are still there and. Holding us back, I think it's it's extremely important. There is minimum a minimum of dialogue over it. very slight. They they prefer the trivial. With their. Topic of the week kind of stuff. You know, just random stuff that keep floating that out there a different one every week. It's and stuff goes nowhere, really. There needs to be more and. That's been already provided in a good way, very timely on target way by Artemis already, who is responded. Very carefully to clarify, he doesn't disagree with it very much, but there is some things that he wants to try to shed light on in this text that's communicate from the contemptuous and it really adds to the whole discussion. It's it's really I think it's not too hard to find. It's really worthwhile. This is a very important step forward, I would say. We had such a disappointing reaction. I wasn't the only one to the new 5th estate. Which is another. Anarchist review of books format. Pretty much all reviews but. Very disappointing and. They sure needed a dose of the contemptuous this. In depth. Could take over view of the left and how it operates. In all of its negative ways. Yeah, somebody didn't get the memo at at 50 state, which is to say kind of no one got the memo over there and. Yeah, let's going backward. Not exactly the answer, but some people are going forward. Sasha angle and. Contemptuous folks, there is a group of some number I they're not. They're not revealing who they are. And and Artemis. Really important stuff, maybe this seems once that spring is going to. Have even more. Love the efforts and advances. Not the technology advances. Well, let's see. When we when we take a break here, yeah. Or is it car crash?

Speaker 2: Lander, this sounds bealeton.

Speaker 4: Bolton, thank you.

Speaker 0: Take care.

Speaker 4: That was builtin cost meetings back in the day and I had an excellent visit from Cliff over the weekend. It's really, really cool to see him again. I keep trying to get him. Behind the mic. Again, we had some great shows together. Also we had a great conversation not in person, but with one morning, Rashid high school kid in Chicago. Yeah, very talented kid Visa vis music and film. And that was really nice. That was another encouraging thing. Well, yeah, all the lines of. People that are trying stuff, there's. A brand new issue of Earth first. One or 2023 didn't quite make it in time to still be in winter season, but maybe they're making a big comeback. I don't know. There's 82 page journal anyway. And yeah, a lot of interesting stuff in it. One thing that I paid attention to, it's called the frontline response to Andreas. Mom Long wrote how to blow up a pipeline. So we've got a fairly long review in here by Madeline Fitch. And it's kind of funny, it's kind of. You know, Mom makes the case for systematic sabotage. And so forth. But he he sort of discounts what other people have done before him or before now that is. And that didn't sit well with theirs. First, folks, in other words, the thing in the reviews, what about us? What about us, you know? He kind of passes over that like, you know, not much happened. I mean, there, there were all these sporadic things. It's all painted out and. You know it's it's failed. The answer is, you know, the reviewers is, well, not true. You know, we're still at it, and it's wonderful and everything, more or less. I'm fudging it a little, maybe, but it takes issue with some stuff, some things that are left out. But mostly it's kind of a cranky. What about Earth first, you know, we're so important. I don't know. I don't want to overdo that point, but. At the same. Time it does, they do validate the importance of this book. Which is now film. And that the the book tries to somehow get to the mainstream folks who never. Really thought about doing the. Actual you know. Targeted damage. And so you know, it ends on a nice note. Overall, I mean it's it's. The reviewer is wondering why the older first people that that she knows are really so mad about the so post to the book. But that's only on one level, I mean. They they didn't get their duty, apparently, but. And he, you know, long in the book, he makes the point about. Deep green resistance. You know which is treated as a nasty little clique as turf and bizarre authoritarian. Approach that made them a joke or a pariah to to people who are. Actually, in the fight to defend nature but. That's. Yeah, that's the that's the bogus and went nowhere. But uh. You know that doesn't cover everything either. I mean, they they do try to bring out the continuing struggle. And you know, they they make one point they. Kind of disagreed with, you know. Mom says, well, what happened? All this great stuff. The late 90s early 2010 with the anti globalization movement in Seattle and all that stuff they take issue with long saying it just petered out. And they point out that 911 happened. It didn't just Peter out, it was. It was a severe climate of repression that set in. After 911, which is true, but you know I have to say and I've kind of regret having to say this in a way, but. It was, it was petering out before 9/11. And here in Eugene anyway. And it really was, I mean it it kind of stalled and. So, you know, kind of hate to admit that because it's if you know, we get this big wave of repression, well, we'd still be carrying on if it weren't for that, well, probably not. And there were other places where they didn't have a big 911 climate of repression sitting in right away, and it petered out there too. So, you know, you got to, I don't know, it's. It's worth examining, you know, examining the record and. Things it's it's funny how things. Peter out at times, you know the climate changes and. It's it's somewhat of a surprise, just like the other is a surprise. The the reverse is a surprise. It's always struck me that. Saying the moving of the 60s really came out of nowhere. It really did. There was no economic collapse or anything. Nothing like it actually was an expanding economy for that matter. How did that come about? No one knows. A very nice surprise that was pretty lovely for a while. Pretty interesting for a while. And you know, again the other is true too. Why do things just sort of fade out? And that's an. Over generalization anyway. I mean they're always. Things to some degree still happening. But anyway. You get the point. Well, let's see what's going on right now is the interesting piece in the Guardian. Late last week, schools and universities across Europe. Have been shut down in a wave of student occupations in this long. Deal protesting inaction about the climate crisis and Jim, I'm indebted for this. I had no idea. This is news put out by the National Iranian American Council. And they detail. Some of the resistance to. Islamic fascism in Iran, of course. That's been to the floor the the big crackdown. Against women who don't want to be covered, and the resistance, the amazing resistance by women. Well, they point out, for example, that on April 26th an Iranian cleric in Tehran was hit by a car. On the 29th, 2 clerics. Were engined in a car crash and the standing. And on the 30th, the chief of the Saravan police. Was killed. These are obviously the active agents of repression. And they. Got some retribution. Well, I've got stuff that goes way back into March, which I didn't get to use because I missed the last two episodes, but I'm not going to go way. Back, but I just mentioned some of this stuff from this the April 5 in Athens. In the Zografou district, anarchist's been a very big. Daylight looting of the supermarket and. Distribution of stuff. To the neighborhood. And I also April 5th. This was in Atlanta. Set fire to three excavators owned by Brent Scarborough Company on his side across from the federal penitentiary in Atlanta. They are. That outfit is responsible for clear cutting the Melanee Forest in Atlanta. We are not done here. Torture, Gita lives, Willani lives. Cup City will never be built. And on April 6th, I'm not going to go deep deep today and take too long, but in the pause.

Speaker 3: OK.

Speaker 4: In the the major city in Baja. Four half liter bottles for the gasoline were placed on. One of the front wheels of the policeman. Simple Activation System matches title one in. Yeah, at least then. Down there. 10th of April we strike a blow against the local parliament building in Bandung, West Java. This is. The capital of Indonesia. Armed with propane bomb and mountains, who managed to destroy each part of the building, the Parliament building our major. And in April 15th, over 100 animal rights activists. They disrupted the Grand National, the big racetrack. The boost ways tried to stop that. That was the national running of the national. Because the delay anyway. And there too. Two horses at least died on the day of the running, and those folks are trying to ban that sort of thing these weird races. And another thing in exact Thia, in Athens end of the month on the 29th this is posted on. The 29th a little. And this compilation of attacks there. Trying to stop the investments, the development in the neighborhood of Exarchia. Yeah, all kinds of breaking doors, facades, windows, cameras at hotels and Airbnbs. Quite a quite a nice list of resistance there. Front page of Sunday New York Times, April 30th. About the landless workers movement in northeast Brazil. Unless there are at least 460,000 squatters. All of the guys, roughly Speaking of the landless workers movement. Squatting unused land, owned by the rich. At least 460,000 and many more supporters. And I made a. Good old mayday. The stuff fighting against the raising of the. Age that people have to keep working, they're bumping that up by two years. It's. Apparently going through it, but anyway on there's a big black block action. And actually, violence century continent as usual, saying as many hundreds of cops were injured in Paris, buildings burned. Good stuff. Just we need to be reminded, remind ourselves that resistance is alive. Some good stuff going on. Another thing that I don't think about necessarily too much in terms of the way things are going, but. Turbulence get on an airplane. And that is the the number of cases. Severe turbulence. Causing injuries that's seems to be. Southwest Airlines in the US here. They had to cancel 17,000 flights. Because of 1 incident. The the Feds closed them down. Getting to be pretty dangerous, I suppose that's getting worse. This is another option of climbing overheating you get. Not only the crazy weather. But all the rest of it, including frankenfish, this is the journal Science. The magazine science finished genetically engineered to glow blue. Green or red under black light. Have been a big hit among aquarium lovers for years. Yeah, just another weird. Domestication case. Well, there it's kind of growing the. They've escaped these fish farms. In Brazil essentially. And now this transgenic. Is getting a foothold in nature. This is a weird thing. Fluorescence allowing genes from the escapees from the fish farm. Could really mess with native fish. Thank you Artemis for that one. Let me get back and squeeze this and get back to some of the eco stuff because it's. Pretty amazing from regarding April 17th, the UK has lost 40 million birds since 1970. And here, as the holes lost six. 100 million birds. Since 1980. Where is that bird song in a spring morning? You know, heard about the insect Armageddon and now it's birds. In this country. Why are dead birds falling from the sky? And this was uh. April 30th article. Has to do with the H5N1 avian flu strain. And yeah, this global devastation. And that part of it? Is global. And they're talking about the US in particular in this piece, but. We're only worried about the spread to humans. The whole part of that. And I want to mention again the Ultra social book John Gaddy's latest book, Ultra Social, the evolution of Human nature. And Boren has written a very nice thing, Bjorn and Alaska. He's up there in horror, I believe. And I just I did mention this before, but I just want to quote just a little bit from Bjorn. Bounty argues that rather than environmental destruction and extreme inequality being due to human nature, they are the results of. The adoption of agriculture from our our ancestors seemingly currently has become an ultra social superorganism. Similar to an Ant or termite colony with the requirements of Subaru Organism taking precedence over the individuals within it, human society is now an autonomous, highly integrated network of technologies. Institutions and belief systems dedicated to the expansion of economic production. And God explains the question, can we forge a better, more egalitarian, sustainable future by changing the socioeconomic and ultimately destructive path? And that makes me think of the interview that was just conducted by. Catherine and others. Or two days ago, and I think it's going to, I think we're going to play it two weeks from now. I've heard the recording. I know that there is a recording because I've heard part of it. Probably that showed the 23rd 45 minutes. Really worth it. With Darshan Novias, a wonderful book right in line, it seems to me with the gaudy book in terms of what is social, what is community. What are the? Possibilities that once existed and may exist again. We'll see. Well, the rain is just today. About 1,000,000 acres have burned in Western Canada. Alberta especially. And the other fluctuation the other. One might say over 400 dead in catastrophic. Flooding in the Democratic Republic of Congo, flooding and landslides. And back on the 26th, Southern California's first wildfire of the season. San Bernardino Forest, not gigantic, 130 acres. Yeah, we're getting underway. And on these significant fluctuations. Is kind of an overview thing. This is a study that pointed out that. Climate change. She's an old euphemism, has made droughts of the severity of 1 currently experienced by East Africa at least 100 times as likely as their as they were in the pre industrial era. Droughts, global overheating. These things are a function of industrialism. And religiously hot weather becoming more common. This is the University of Bristol study. Sudden spikes. This is from the journal Nature Communications. We're going to get these very. Bad heat spikes, severe killing spikes. Ultra high temperatures. Tory authorities back on the 22nd. Warned residents across large swaths of Thailand, including the capital Bangkok, to avoid going outside. During extreme heat. Record-breaking temperatures. And let's see, I think it was. Oh yeah, well. Time and. 2.4 million people have sought treatment for health problems linked to air pollution. It always happens in this so-called haze season in the spring, but it's it's way worse this time. Yeah, and. In Europe. Just found out that. Spain in April. The month ended with the hottest, driest. Since they've been counting in Spain and they it was record heat earlier and the whole month has been pretty terrible. Much closer to home, this was. Eight days ago, I think it was last Monday. It would have been about the 70 car and truck pile up. In the middle of Illinois. These things? Yeah, this stupid thing that happens quite a lot. Well, the amount of. Force here was a dust storm. Best one is this the scenario or? That's nothing new. I mean, you talk about the the best bowl of authorities. That's a function of plowing. You shred the topsoil, blows away, it can blow away. It has blown away. We've lost a huge amount of topsoil. So yeah, it's it's. Not only. Driving. But what's behind it? What sets the stage for that? Temperatures in the world's oceans have broken records. This is from the end of the month. Partly from the US National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. But lots of other studies, and you're talking about the old mania that's going to happen. That's the warming thing. Not to go off into that, but. In general. Oceans are getting hotter. Which means more hurricanes in the Gulf, which the water there is already hot. But this is a global thing. The oceans of the world. And the Greenland and. Antarctic ice sheets are now losing more than three times as much ice a year as they were 30 years ago. That's just more the same. We're the same. Well, I wanted to mention something here, Carl. I hope you can help me out with this. What do you think of the national?

Speaker 2: The band I am not super familiar with them, although one of the brothers is like a a composer of some kind like a like a. He's a more serious musician and I've heard some of his stuff that I like.

Speaker 4: Ah, what's this? Well, it's this long piece I didn't know.

Speaker 2: Rice, rice.

Speaker 4: Anything about it, but long piece in the current issue of The New Yorker. Called sad dads. And how it's like they use this terminology called soft grief. And you're saying, isn't this, you know, the 90s or it sounds like it's more than that.

Speaker 2: Dad rock is that. Is that sad? Dad rock. Wilco. Was Wilco in that? In that article too?

Speaker 4: Dan Sandan rock. I think there are two. Sets of broke. Oh yeah, I think so. You've been around a.

Speaker 2: Long time, yeah.

Speaker 4: Yeah, this is. Subtitle is how the national captures the only magnificent lives of adults.

Speaker 2: Ohh, I bet. Who said who wrote the article?

Speaker 4: And then the petrissage.

Speaker 2: OK.

Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's the whole thing about on the, you know, on the motif. Of learning and. How bad things are getting and their struggles because they've been around a long time. This is quite a long article.

Speaker 2: I'll have to check. It out. I'm I I piqued my interest in that.

Speaker 4: Yeah, mine too. I'm going to. They're listening to some.

Speaker 2: Of it, I'm a fan of. Sad rock. When they went for the Happy Rock. You look for my show coming up at 8:00.

Speaker 4: Yes, that's right. At 8:00 today too.

Speaker 2: Well, I wouldn't really call it happy. But it'll it'll it'll. It'll put the inner piece in you.

Speaker 4: Yes, that's the serenity. Some of that stuff.

Speaker 2: Give you some of that sweet, sweet serenity.

Speaker 4: Yeah, that's for sure. I'm kind of I'm kind of slowing down here. And trying to figure out. I'll just mention one more thing and then I can hang it up here and. We can go out with some music. Two days ago, in the Sunday New York Times, Nicholas Kristoff, The Oregonian guy who's one of the central op-ed. Guys, that's the New York Times. Running about. The phenomenon of chronic physical pain. To the point of of 50 million Americans are in chronic physical pain and staying it in with the basic dysfunction in society. Despair. Once again, I hate to keep trotting out every every second here, but. Yeah, it it's not just. Work and so forth. I mean, everybody has a bad back who does much physical work and that's that's fairly new, that sort of thing, but. It's also something deeper, maybe like the mass shootings, the pain of of this kind of world. And a companion piece also in the same Sunday Times by Hugh Green, called. How miserable are we supposed to be? I mean, wow, the immiseration of the the depression. It's it's a. It's just illegal. You know the topic and maybe will be unavoidable when helps is some moves toward. Fixing all labs, changing all that. Well, thanks for. Listening. It's nice to be back. It's good to be back with Carl and next week with Kathleen too. Take care.

Speaker 0: By the way.

Speaker 5: What is going on?

Speaker 0: With you here? No.

Speaker 5: It's not what has this stuff gone here. We're hockey night in Canada and we're talking about saving the world and all that stuff. Let's talk hockey.

Speaker 3: Well, that's the whole idea behind December the 25th.

Speaker 5: Let's talk about some good guys. Let's talk about the troops.

Speaker 0: OK.

Speaker 3: Dear Ron McLean. Coaches corner I'm right in order. For someone to explain. To manage the distinction between these mandatory breaking properties of submission, specifically the function, the ritual search in conjunction.



Kathan co-hosts. Rewilding and resistance theme. Unending wave of mass shootings, anywhere, everywhere. Is 'undiagnosed mental illness' the key? Millions are messed up in a fundamentally wrong world. Discussion with Artxmis. Insane weather. "Social Media Is Doomed to Die." Chatbots march on, replicating symbolic culture. Announcements. One call. No broadcast next week.

Speaker 1: You're listening to KWVA, Eugene. It is 7:00 and time for anarchy radio here in the studio with John and Catherine. Today, the number is 541-346-0645 and we have music to start off our show from teen generate.

Speaker 0: So let's get. Ohh man. Like that. I touch you. Thank you. He went for.

Speaker 2: And generate some fairly early garage park by request. April 18th, 19 radio. Hi, cancelled. Hey, John. Good to be here. Swim down, anouncement. There won't be an anarchy radio. I hope you're figuring out the right channel, by the way, to catch the show tonight. But there won't be an April 25th Anarchy Radio. Alice is having surgery the day before, so I plan on being back May 2nd. Yeah, I didn't want to stick in a word about the mass shootings. Anywhere. Everywhere. How about the Sweet 16 birthday party Saturday night in a quiet, rural small town in Alabama today in Maine? I mean, you just can't count. And my but my favorite. Thing that pops out about that is the my favorite brand of denial and what accounts for all this. Undiagnosed mental illness. Think about it. Around half the population is on antidepressants, right? Something like. That so how many millions are on meds? Or? And that's somewhat diagnosed. So in other words?

Speaker 3: At least.

Speaker 2: It it explains nothing. I mean virtually everyone, then you know. Never mind the undiagnosed, I mean, it's just. Yeah, that explains something, doesn't it? Or possibly absolutely nothing. It's one of the most stupid ways of looking at.

Speaker 3: It well, I want to take us in a different direction at the moment because because that that is a topic that certainly. Certainly more than a topic. It's as we said, it's not only daily, but it's multiple episodes day that that are being reported upon and and and and no discussion of any substance at all. I'll start with a joke because I I'm looking to. Get some callers tonight. It's time you know people need to be talking to each other. Talk and call in 541-346-0645. So I'll start with a joke, a little lighthearted and then maybe we can get into some some more serious. Stuff. What? What do you think, John? What's the difference between a grave robber and an anthropologist?

Speaker 2: I give up pH. D.

Speaker 3: So that that actually came from a friend I know who works with the tribes. Did some some kind of years ago and that was that was a joke amongst the in crowd anyway. So. So what my notes in the middle of the night that came to me. Is that we need to be talking about resistance. What does it look like? And is the rewilding resistance and I believe one of the authors and one of the articles in the final journal, #5 gave credit to people from Portland alleging that. Rewilding is resistance. And so I think I think that's a pertinent question. I think there are a lot of pertinent questions and and what the is rewilding resistance, I'll go to with civilization, inevitably collapse. Can technology be utilized as neutral and instrumented tool? For this. Maps is the machine, basically a dependent, addictive and morally destructive force? What should should that Marco Primitiveness? Or how does AP theory address resistance in nation State conflicts, war in traumas of nation, state, civilization. Collapse, famine, hunger, care of each other. Long term survival of planet and species. Resistance, nurturing, relationship. Those were my general and what provoked this? Midnight thoughts. Midnight dreaming. I was a wonderful article sent. Sent to me by friends from the LA Times. And I don't have a date on it. It's pretty recent. It was a column Silicon Valley elites are afraid. History says they should be. And and it was a very motivating article on on what is to me brings up the question, what is resistance that many people have forgotten? Like a a clearer way of of talking about it. So I have extensive quoting from this article. Basically in the last several weeks there's been, you know, congressional hearings, the stock valuations, the cryptocurrency banks, you know, everything shaky. And the pool of silicon leads are crying about this tech flash. They call it this. This hatred of of the tech masters. Mike Salona, vice president at Peter Thiel's founder fund, wrote on his blog that Tech is now universally hated. Warned of an incoming political war and claimed a lot of people genuinely seem to want a good old fashioned mass murder, presumably of tech execs. If only they related to just how good they have it historically speaking, and these are quotes from this opinion piece, it was mere decades ago, after all, the the Silicon Valley elite faced the active threat of actual non metaphorical violence the most. Critics, critics of big tech of the 70s didn't write strongly worded columns, chastising them in newspapers or blast their politics on social media. They physically occupied their computer labs, destroyed their capital equipment, and even bombed their homes. Tech lash is what Silicon Valley's ownership class calls it. When people don't buy their stock, said Malcolm. Harris tells me today's tech billionaires are lucky people are making fun of them on the Internet instead of fire bombing their houses. That's what happened to Bill Hewlett. Back in. Day. Then there's a lovely leaflet reprinted from a photocopy of the leaflet, was how to destroy an empire, a manifesto and map drawn by student radicals to promote their occupation of the Stanford Research in Institute. 1987 article in this newspaper makes this point that does the LA Times. When William Hewlett retired from the company he founded, the Times dedicated a full paragraph to the various threats of violence that the billionaire faced in the 70s. Quote in 1971, radical animosities directed at the UP upscale Palo Alto community in Stanford University campus brought terror into the Hewlett's lives. The modest Hewlett family home was fire bombed in 1976. Saint James, then 28. Thought off would be kidnappers the same year of radical group called the Red Guerrilla Family claimed responsibility when a bomb exploded in an HP building. Harris is the author of quote this the book Palo Alto, A history of California capitalism in the world. The book that is currently the talk of the town, it just hit the LA Times bestseller list, but not for the reasons that the valley elites might prefer. It's a robust, sprawling history that's intensely critical of the great men of tech history, and even more so of the systems they served. It's been received. Enthusiastically as an overdue corrective to the industry's potent penchant for self anthology. And some of the most potent mythologies, of course, rely on our mission. Take, for instance, the popular narrative that his kids, such as Hewlett and Steve Jobs, started the computer revolutions from their garages in Palo Alto, where their starkest opposition. In the form of square, old corporations such as IBM and Xerox, and not actually actual bomb throwing revolutionaries. Harris work reminds us that this was far from the case. There was a moment far more organized, far more militant and far more sharply opposed to the big tech companies of the day than anything we've seen in the last 10 years. And it's not even close when we think of the 60s. In California, we think of disparate, disparate panoramic happenings in an explosive. The war in Vietnam, the rise of the computer, the student protest movement and so on. But Harris argues that the computer revolution didn't simply coexist with the war it fueled it. These developments weren't just connected. They were the same thing. Anyway, I think I've hit some of the highlights of that and then just from the local local papers, I wanted to to go beyond Silicon Valley into more just general resistance. 416 New York Times talks about how transgender issues became the new rallying cry for the right, and it generally the whole whole discussion. Starts out talking about how the constitutional right to same sex marriage nearly eight years ago set social conservatives adrift. And and and. The whole acceptance and normalization, appropriation, whatever of gay rights movement into. Constitutional right? The. The right. Wing or the? Conservatives, whatever now transgender issues attacking transgender kind of thing. It's been become their substitute. Substitute field of war resistance or attack and. Resistance, I think. We need to point out, certainly within some of our listening audience, they remember the time, early time of AIDS, HIV and AIDS and act up the. Aids coalition to Unleash Power Direct action in the late 1980s to address the HIV crisis that was killing so many people and and the the actions that were that they were taking things like storming the National Institute of. Health besieging the CDC, blocking entrances to tunnels in New York City office. Takeovers, disruption of speeches, office occupations, disrupting events, lockdowns of government offices. These were just a few, you know, just to remind people. What does resistance look like in in some specific cases? And then as a last piece on just like? Wide angle lens. What does resistance look like? Article in 416 New York Times. Sticky fingers 327 shoplifters 6000 arrests whole whole article about shoplifters. Nice little picture of. A worker in the Bronx story says shoplifters covet baby formula and cleaning items. So just let the resistance aparty sometimes means you appropriate you book, you take, you know, kind of thing. So there's a theoretical point of discussion. We welcome calls on any and all of the topics. I I think it's really, really important that that. That people start now in the present day on a daily kind of urgent. Kind of. Kind of. There's a call for a little reflection on what does resistance look like? What forms does it take it and, you know, get get get on the gate.

Speaker 2: Bottom line, why don't you last week, how much? Attention has been paid to. How to blow up a pipeline? The book and the movie. Now there's a movie and interesting that it is seriously discussed. For the first time in in the recent years, anyway, that this isn't given the fact that everything else has failed, you might as well actually do something, and in this past week even more written about it, so it's kind. Not just a blip, they'll possibly just a. Blip, but I mean. Something is shifting a little bit there that they would, you know, talk about this in a serious vein.

Speaker 3: And even have have movies that get. Reviewed on it.

Speaker 2: Yeah, discussed Corona lot. I wish we brought this poster along, by the way, to show you it doesn't work for any of. My friend Bjorn in Alaska, who's down here recently, his parents were hippie homesteaders in Alaska. Anyway, this poster has been preserved and he sent it to me. It's going to go into the archive big poster. Basically it says join the Stone Age and save the world 1971. Anything like you were saying? I mean, there's there's been. There's always been some opposition, some kind of radical. Displeasure with things, but kind of nice to know.

Speaker 3: And that I mean that poster does kind of date back to the 70s, the whole Earth catalog and the the two, two-part. The two different directions that were advocated in that catalog, and one was the people who loved computers and science and technology. I got to wrap this up real quick. We got phone call technology and then the others who were joining the Stone Age, you know, get, get, get back to the basics.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're. Right. Somebody there.

Speaker 1: Yeah, we have Artemis, Artemis.

Speaker 2: On this I was just talking about you.

Speaker 4: How is it going?

Speaker 3: Is going with you.

Speaker 4: Well, you know it's it's alright. I wanted to respond partially to your, you know, your questioning opening up the idea of resistance but. I also had. A joke for you?

Speaker 3: Go ahead, shoot.

Speaker 4: So you know how when some birds fly, they fly in the in the in the Z shape, right? And then that sometimes it's longer on one side, on the other. Do you know why?

Speaker 3: No idea.

Speaker 4: There's more birds on that side.

Speaker 2: That was worse than her job.

Speaker 4: I have to say I like. I like yours because I I work with an indigenous group and I and the leader of it, who? Who's on my, who's been on my podcast before? Malasi. He's a good friend. He he points. Out it's like, why is it that? You know Europeans. To him, anthropology is always going to be colonial. It's like it only took them until recently to start voluntarily digging up their own bones. But they have no issue digging up hours.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. For sure.

Speaker 4: And of course the you know, and the Egypt and you know, things from both Africa and and the so-called Middle East. Some people say the only reason the pyramids aren't moved out of Egypt is they're too, too heavy to move, you know.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4: Or from another quick set before I move on to my point is I believe it was the Swiss. Stole a bunch of items from Germany in like the in the in the Protestant Classic War that the 50 years war and recently the Swiss were like or the Germans are like can we get that back? And the EU said no because they realized, well, they say you have to give it back that everyone's going to want their stuff back. That's not from your. You know the application of that. So on resistance, I think those are really important questions is fundamentally, do you think civilization will collapse on its own? Because if you say yes, then it just so it's so easy to be. Well, I don't have to do anything. It's not my problem.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. Wow. Wow.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you know it collapses then just to passive collapses, just waiting for the happy day.

Speaker 3: Yep, Yep.

Speaker 4: Right. And I think there's been a lot more discussion between the Kirk about Steve Kirk about this and just the idea that it's like collapsed is actually quite beneficial because. To civilization, because what doesn't kill it makes it stronger, right? So any crisis improves itself from, like, look at the 60s, look at Occupy, how it can.

Speaker 3: Appropriate. You're gonna be? Yep. Yep. Exactly. Exactly.

Speaker 4: Yeah, similarly, all the resistance appropriated, right. You know, it's it's really idea the idea when you get sick and your body can later resist those things better. It's the same idea. Right, which I think makes resistance difficult because we've seen so many different avenues fail, and that's a great reason. AP, AP thought rejects leftism because it's a well, it hasn't worked, right. Or at times it's beneficial to the system. But I think on the other end of that, too many primitivists are scared. Of seeming like leftists, so we avoid all organization and all. All. All ideas that resemble organization are all anything that could resemble leftism. You know which I understand.

Speaker 3: Well, and you know and. Uh, you know I would. I'm not limiting this to AP people. I I would say that the love of technology, the use, the, the the thing like you have to, you have to do that. You can't function without the reliance or the a critical it's just the. Tool kind of thing rather than understanding. Maybe it's actually it's a a field of war, right? It's it's.

Speaker 0: Right, right.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it's not something. It's not just a tool. It. It's like it's what's the future? It's what's going to colonize the moon and.

Speaker 4: Yeah, you don't have to be.

Speaker 3: And extract the resources from the like it's a present day, but yesterday a picture of of odd things in the sky where spiral appears in the Northern Lights and. That it's *** **** rocket fuel burning off of 1 of Musks rockets up there. So. So this stuff isn't theoretical, this is the world people are living in and saying, oh, you know, you know. Oh. Oh me. Oh my.

Speaker 2: It's collapsing domination, though. Has as you referred to. It's so flexible it cops almost everything. That's why you know that drives the deeper critique. You know, the deeper questioning. Otherwise you do end up strengthening the system. It it learns from partial opposition. Which, you know, it doesn't go far enough it it then it is more armored, you know, because it's it's survived that.

Speaker 4: Right.

Speaker 2: And learn from that.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I know the idea that it's not just primitivists in that, you know, there's a deeper critique of technology. It's one of the many European guerrilla groups that formed. It might have been red front or one of those. It's interesting because they had communiques. I want to say with red front, they had communiques that, you know, computers are the technology. Of the bourgeois. And that they went and destroyed computers. And computer manufacturers cause you saw it. They're like, oh, all it's going to do is aid the bureaucratization, imperialism. They saw it as, like, a front for American imperialism and the West.

Speaker 3: Well, that that was that was true on college campuses in the 70s where the the building of computer labs and all of that, those were being bombed, you know. And and that. Yeah.

Speaker 4: Right. And so it's interesting to see that leftists weren't always so opposed to technology, but now you do it and they think you're you're worse than Hitler, right? Because they're going to do the norm Chomsky thing is. Oh, well, then you're saying you want to genocide 8 billion people, which cuts all discussion. They're not willing to hear a critique because as soon as they say you want to genocide or any of the other at homonyms.

Speaker 3: You know it was.

Speaker 4: It just throws at any discussion because anyone that now wants to talk with you is. Now complicit, right?

Speaker 2: Well, I'm. I'm not so sure the actual genocide is going on right now. I mean, Chomsky can, you know, give off his unhealthy projections about to.

Speaker 3: Right.

Speaker 2: What some people are up to, he has no idea. But you know, I I don't think that's very, very cogent or very powerful anymore to point to some unknown genocide when the real one is showing itself more and more every single day.

Speaker 3: And it's not limited to the human species. Just like them. It was. And you know, napalm of of Vietnam and what that did to the forest and all all of that, you know that that's that's a good point. I mean that that's him kind of thing came those same kind of securities.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 3: Hide your neck in the sand. Discussions about oh, you know, you can't do that kind of stuff. It is just it. Is it like, what is happening now? The genocide happens right now.

Speaker 2: Along the lines of your questions, Catherine. I got a very interesting phone call the other day from Flower Bomb and I'm racking my mind. I have been pretty distracted lately. Flower bomb. I know who that is and I and I'm talking, but I don't know who it is right away. Well, he's he's the person who started war zone distro and we had a really good conversation. He he sees a renewal afoot when he has seen, like, a lot of other people too, that, you know, after the thing that was going on, so-called the. Anti Globalization movement 2025 years ago. That faded out and the left lefty stuff came back in and people in Europe have. I've heard that quite a lot. You know, that kind of filled the vacuum. We took this backward step into, you know, kind of plotting leftist kind of stuff again. Well, he's saying that's turned. Now that's not happening so much anymore. There is a renewal of foot, so he's it was very good to hear that. I mean, to hear that optimistic read. But yeah, he's in the mid Midwest here in this country and he's. You know, not, you know, firmly optimistic or not or or the other way either, but you know, he's just kind of reporting on that. That's what he's saying that that after this slump, now it's taking a better turn toward a more radical thing.

Speaker 4: I actually just. I actually just had flower bomb on the podcast. Actually, we talked on some of that stuff. Really. I thought that war. Yeah. War zone being kind of this. I'll use the larger term like post left. Anarchism is like international like they. See it, it's. The fact that people from Europe or other continents or like your stuff is awesome, we have it out here. But we didn't have it before. You know the impact that just distro ISM can have and what that looks like. Resistance starts to just be able to talk to people. Which John I I love that you're able to have a column and the work that you've done I think is highly important and that that relates to a question I want to ask is what it means to they what would they call the old green anarchy need UPS that. I know that green Anarchy magazine was the center of you guys. Did it in a National Park. At one point, I think it could be blanking. By having nose back, even if they're not the same stale. But people just go out, be out in, you know, nature and have those conversations that aren't mediated by technology.

Speaker 2: Right, exactly. Every summer there were these rewilding things way back then in the in the 2000s.

Speaker 4: People like to laugh and laugh with each other. Yeah, and being able to bring those back, even if it's you in a couple of friends, be able to. Make fun of each. Other and have fun, right? Because so. Much of it's being able to just, you know. Not worry about the health state that we're in, but to be able to enjoy each other's presence in unmediated fashion. You know what does it look like?

Speaker 3: No, exactly, exactly true. And like the five steps backwards with the COVID epidemic, and then on the whole social media and reliance on reliance on that and and and not face to face, meet up meet.

Speaker 1: Oh yeah.

Speaker 3: Talk be with other people and and I would. OK, part of John opened with the mass shootings, talking about the mass shootings and, you know, just human social relations have deteriorated so much and whether it's pandemic. I mean, it's not 1 cause nothing single cause. But pandemic and then social media, virtual realities, this whole. Dehumanization of living things.

Speaker 4: Yeah, I just had my students actually today we're talking about time management and I had them. I was like yesterday. Tell me what you did and how long it took you to do and wasn't necessary just to get them thinking. And I had one student. He was like, you know, I come to school, I go home. He's I was on TikTok, I'll say how long he said I know. You're not going to like my answer. I was like, do I want to hear it? He's like 7 hours. You certain like how many of my students said how much? How much do you watch TV or sit in your phone? And I'm not trying to judge you, but really think about and you just had the guests on from get off. Social media is whatever. The club is. You know what? When you get older, looking back, do you want to make memories? And what are you hoping to do with a little bit of time that you have or you want? To stay on your phone, on social media. Like, what do you really? Want to do with yourself? And I have a lot of those conversations. I don't, I don't. Try to push my anti tech but I'm very clear with that like I have it in my room like I make little. Jokes about like phones. And I've had students tell me like, you know, because of the conversations, I got rid of Instagram, I got rid of TikTok or whatever, because we also do weekly check-ins, like how often have you been? On your phone, if your phone tracks it. Tell me, what's your average phone? Use like I really. Pushed them to think about that stuff. Some students think I'm just a young boomer, basically, but others are like no, like, this is important to. Talk about, you know.

Speaker 2: Right.

Speaker 3: Well, and and when you say like things do you care about your memory like this direct relationships? They're like studying that understanding what is happening to.

Speaker 4: Yeah, or attention span.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that collar quit social media. That was he. He was so articulate on that, making it a very personal question. Like you like you're doing. You know, it's not trying to push some theory on people, but you know what's going on? I mean, what is that satisfying? Are you spending all this time and for what? Basic questions.

Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. And it's just, it's weird and and it's it's one of those things too that I tried to look back when I was younger, when I was on social media a lot and I looked at them. I try not to judge them cause it's like the even just the social pressure if you're not on it, it's weird. It's weird to not be plugged in. You know, and as being at a high school, I don't judge or middle school even because that's when it sets in. Like, oh, everyone has Snapchat, everyone has XYZ. It's. I don't blame them for not getting on. Right or for getting audit, I should say.

Speaker 3: Well, it become. It becomes not an option. You know it's like 2 function before this show started us talking with John just about my experience. With with cell phone and and just the whole your access to a human being through the chat box and through the present systems in play that there's just no option for human interaction. And it's just like you, you're you're routed in deliberate loops that just keep you impotent from, from, from, from, solving any kind of basic problems or or anything. It's just like. Yeah, it's over the top.

Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. So I.

Speaker 2: There's a good piece today at The Verge. Social media is doomed to die and to disappoint us from some guy who spent seven years working for Snapchat. Ellis Hamburger by name and he he just pointed out something kind of basic. In other words, chap. Snapchat, as I understand it, was kind of like. This is the hip. Ethical aware kind of social media. It's not like the. Other ones? Well, it fell. It fell right into line like. All the other. Ones and he says, OK, let's look at the original. The original draw or the original vision, whatever you want to. Call it social media is a way to share things with family and friends. You know, when you send them pictures or a joke and it's a nice idea. There's nothing wrong with that. And but he says, why does that always change? The bottom line is growth, just like capitalism, by the way, of course. And it you, you can't just have the same people doing the same. You know, party shots or whatever sending. And that thing has to grow and you've got to have advertisers. And so you can see right away it's it departs almost immediately from the original. If if there was a sincere, you know. Helpful pictures that you want from social media. No, it it's just. It goes it goes one way. It's kind of grow. You've got to quantify the thing you've got to have. You know, the ads, the pop-ups, all. That stuff, or else you.

Speaker 3: You gotta mine the lithium. You got to, you know, the extraction. Like the whole. It's a whole big package.

Speaker 2: Well, I have that too. All of it, yeah. But just the way you're using it, it's not that in itself is is false. You know, it's it's the logic of it is there, you know, otherwise it fades away, you know, and and then it's just like any other one. And it's replaced by some other.

Speaker 4: It's always interesting these people, these, the people in the inside like Bill Joy, who wrote why the future doesn't need us in response to dudzinski it's these people know it, you know, and they can see it and they become dissenters. But then always people within Silicon Valley are like, oh, you're just a weirdo. But but he was in it. It's not like he's some dude that just is rejecting. Well, that he lives in and he's seen it like those are the people you think in the public eye. Could have the authentic perspective right, but still no one listens. But before I go, did you see that Jerry Mander, author of four arguments for the elimination of television and in the absence of the sacred, passed away recently? Yeah. Yeah. So that's.

Speaker 2: I didn't know that until I saw your message.

Speaker 4: That's weird because I just I just read earlier this year for arguments for the elimination of television and his absence to the sacred. That was a really impactful book for me, so I was always hoping to get him on the podcast, but. I think he was just it. Never it, never. You know materialized but you.

Speaker 2: You know, and he ended up rather badly. I mean, back in the 90s, I mean, he ended up with some kind of notion that there should be to save everything. We need sort of some philosopher kings to to step in. And of course. He would be one of. Them. I mean, that's kind of ridiculous. I mean, not only not. Anti authoritarian but just you know what? What are you smoking, dude? That's what you came up with after these two wonderful books. I mean, it's it's kind of sad and it's. But those two books are very important. I think I agree with that.

Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I hope you 2 have a great one.

Speaker 2: Thanks for calling.

Speaker 3: Hey, thanks.

Speaker 2: Well, I don't even know if we have time. For a short break, do we do you think?

Speaker 3: Let's see. Where are we at? Oh, my goodness. The time is flying.

Speaker 2: Maybe just a real quick and maybe a minute or two, just so you can refresh. Your martini. There you go. OK. I wish you could sweat.

Speaker 0: Like dolphins? Like dolphins and slaves. So not. Not saying we'll keep us together. He can be. But never and never. Or we can be heroes. Just for one day. One day. What's up?

Speaker 2: All righty. Thank you. Cool. We were back. Yeah, well, that's a very topic of the week. To steal that from the anarchist news people. But anybody else have any thoughts about resistance and rewilding?

Speaker 3: Call in while you have time, 541-346-0645. Hey, I want I wanted to add a couple more things on my damnation of technology. The one thing that people don't. The loose side of it, maybe it's not really looked at and this this will be go. This comes off of a Wall Street Journal 329. AIC is doing the work of many professions and it talks about, you know, the jobs, the professions that are going to disappear in the employment. Opportunities for things like mathematicians, interpreters, writers, and nearly 20% of the US workforce. The article goes on and starts talking about. It's a multi trillion dollar problem training workers to collaborate effectively with the technology and redesigning jobs to enhance the autonomy, wages and career prospects of many roles. Individuals have already begun using generative AI to work more quickly, though many employers worry about security and accuracy, so so just the whole hidden hidden kind of things that the AI that all all these so-called improvements are really just. In speed ups, good old fashioned speed ups and what happens? What's part of the cost of of the speed up is imagination, creativity and loss of that imagination and just standardization, homogenization and basically the. Into the ender. The wedding of humans to their machines and, and we already see it with the little prosthetic cell phones that people have them in their hands and they they're in the submissive pose and and all. And on them all the time my garden. This was saying challenging his students. Like actually, do you ever look at how much time and then what is done with that time? Where does that time go? And and the that that's the the big thing that the time goes to investing more time into. You know, create tightening up those networks, tightening up those bonds and then it doesn't go into imagination. It doesn't go into creative ideas or anything, it becomes a. A dependent relationship between the the machine and the human being and and then. Chips over into the machine. Having the control of the human rather than the reverse, but ohh everybody thinks that oh, it's so good for us, it's expanding our possibilities.

Speaker 2: I like the way Peter Warby we were talking about that article in the new state. That there used to be. Well, there still is outsourcing of jobs. You find it cheaper labor source somewhere else. Well, now they're outsourcing, I'm thinking. That's what this so-called machine learning chat bot stuff is. Pointing toward, I mean and actually achieving to some degree one isn't thinking.

Speaker 3: And it's not thinking I mean that that's the exact point, it's it's increased domination because it's new ideas are challenging, ideas don't come out of it. It's a reiteration of a compilation of what's already happened, been thought. Utilize to to nefarious ends.

Speaker 2: It is very interesting question. This was discussed like almost a month ago in Artemis. And it gets down to another layer level if you will if. A lot of these things in symbolic culture can be so easily replicated. Then what does that tell you about symbolic culture? Very interesting. And when I was, for example, here's two stories from yesterday. This year's Sony World Photography Award was won by an AI generated image. It's not a photo at all. The guy who submitted it this thing. We refunded the prize. You know, it's just so much for photography or this one. Same same day. Yesterday, AI generated Drake song. That's interesting to just plan some Drake the other day.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: Hard on my sleeve. It's simulated Drake type music taking off on TikTok and Spotify. Millions of listens. They took it down after but. Nobody. Everybody's full. It's just this. It's just as good as it drakes on made by a machine. I mean. So, yeah, that's something to ponder. So then. You know that kind of that kind of undermines a lot, isn't it? I mean, you think art and all this stuff is so fabulous, the machine can do that. And does it really? I mean, it's. Or at least. Something like that. I mean, I'm not saying that, you know, covers everything there, but that's scary.

Speaker 3: Well, it's it's a downgrade. It's a a. A downgrade of human capabilities of of what? What could be?

Speaker 2: Well, I know, but if it's just as good as the other thing, then what's the difference?

Speaker 3: Well, what? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: I mean. And, you know, Cliff sent this the other day. I guess the question was, who was the reason? And there was this big. Well, not it wasn't endless or anything, but it was like a column like thing. And he sent it without comment, you know. And so I'm thinking. This must be real cheesy, or stupid or. No, I. You know, I had to say that's pretty accurate. That's kind of covers it. It probably went through. Everything I've ever written in in a millisecond or something and could spit it out, you know, could assemble it through all the algorithms and however else it works. I don't even know. But I had to admit I don't see anything inaccurate here. You know, a friend could have written it, you know, somebody sympathetic. Not. Not a damn machine. So I mean, I didn't even know what to say to Cliff, except I I copped to it. I said that, you know.

Speaker 3: So it was something AI generative AI that was saying, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, with the checkpoint answer. I don't. I don't even know the question, but I assume it was who's theirs and or something, you know.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that was kind of a drag. She pretty good. I have to admit.

Speaker 3: Right. But it that's like living in the past. That's not the living series. And with creative or with mistakes or with anything, it's a standardized it's a dead product. It's death, you know.

Speaker 2: There you go. That's true. That's true. Too pretty much.

Speaker 3: So well here, just going on the technology stuff, just curiosity. How bank app knows it's you and and that that was another article that was today just talking about. The the Banks authentication practices and and how you know compared to what the individual like, there's not equality in this technology and and the invasive methods. And and the. Accumulation. Compilation of data to what to? To determine to approve a login or a transaction. So so I mean if if you keep your, if you pay attention to that. Read between the lines on technology and and who's getting what and how it's being utilized and who it's like. This bank app protecting identity. You know, that's a little different than me messing around on my little laptop or giving my bank. Sorry to somebody.

Speaker 2: Well, I've got a an announcement or two, I I. Meant to squeeze this in which there won't be a sand bonds green anarchy panel that our last Sunday night of the month. Deal. So sadly enough. March and April both had to be skipped for various reasons. I won't go into it, but. And this is maybe the good side of that, that there won't be that at bonds on the 30th on that Sunday, but there will be at the Eugene Garden Club of all places here and Eugene between 17th between 16th and 17th on High Street. Sunday the 30th at 6:00. This is going to be a film showing Alf evening essentially also political prisoner support effort. From the. Civil Liberties Defense Center and. The group certain. Days. So it's jointly done by them.

Speaker 3: And that's at the Garden Club.

Speaker 1: So it's nice.

Speaker 2: I won't be. Yeah, the Garden Club. I I thought that's doesn't sound like a radical venue.

Speaker 3: That thing reminds me of what? What was that thing called the Ladies Terrace Knitting Circle or something? Do you remember that? Yeah.

Speaker 2: Oh yeah, something like. Oh, and one other. Thing I hope this got around more than I I'm afraid it did, but couple of years ago, 325 the wonderful source.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. No state. Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 325 N state #12. They did a oh, it was a very big magazine. 56 pages, I think lots of stuff. Lots of great. Tech critique and by transhumanism. Cryptocurrency, all kinds of stuff about the techno society. Well, they're working on #13 and this will be, I'm sure, really good, but it's it's they haven't even set a deadline for submissions, but I told them I'd be very happy to share that. If I must. State if you're thinking about. Something along these lines. So you want to write and send them. They'd be happy.

Speaker 3: Did they get their website up again? Like I lost track of them when they got put down.

Speaker 2: I I did too. I think so. I think that was temporary, but I, you know, I they didn't in the message. They didn't say anything about it, so I assume.

Speaker 3: Used to be 32325, no state. Dot org, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yes, thank you. Yeah, I kind of lost track of the.

Speaker 3: So is there a subscription or or a place for for contact Julia?

Speaker 2: 20 minutes. Well, I think if you go to their website.

Speaker 3: If they have their website out.

Speaker 2: If it's yes, exactly if it's there.

Speaker 3: Maybe you've got actual concrete magazine here. It looks fine.

Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got copies of #12 and I've. Yeah, as I say, I've bet #13. Which is a. Ways off. It's months away, but they wanted to start spreading the word. So that's another thing that's. Pumping up. Another project.

Speaker 3: There you go. Well, there times winding down for Earth Day is coming up. So in honor of Earth Day, I'm I'm saying that somewhat facetiously, I wanted to call attention to ocean garbage patch hose critters on an article. Based on the. Talking about the let me get my facts right. The trash patch, that's the. Plastic and ocean trash swept in into these gyres, the Great Pacific garbage patches. The biggest of these aggregations. It's a five day boat ride from the California coast, and it spends more than 610,000 square miles. Microplastic shards, less than 5 millimeters. Long account for most of the debris suspended in the water, like pepper flakes and soup. So some scientists from the Smithsonian Environmental Research Center in California and Maryland. Took took some stuff from that and saw that animals were found growing and reproducing on the garbage. Patch anemones, who like to protect themselves with grains of sand, had actually incorporated these seed like. Microplastics into their being. Things they're all fully loaded with plastic on the outside and inside, so that's how you and I may appear in. The future job. That, but they found an incredible amount of sea snails. The blue button jellyfish and their relative called by the wind sailors. Gather more densely where there is more plastic. So cleaning removing the plastic would mean uprooting them, doctor Helm said. Cleaning, cleaning it up is not actually that simple. So happy Earth Day.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: To the critters.

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it's good that we can get in a little bit of the environmental stuff the you know, all these floods. The piece about this is the last Friday's New York Times flash droughts that arrived quickly and are becoming more common globally, according to a Chinese study. Greater heat can rapidly parch the ground. And the other side of it is what was what happened middle of last week in Fort Lauderdale. Florida, where they got a month worth of rain in one day, you know, just instantly flooded everything, the airport and everything. Stuff like that. The more erratic turns of.

Speaker 3: Whether we're we're going to see here what what things add up to, we've got 200% increase in the snowpack in the mountains as their rivers are currently gorged, having the wettest April ever on record.

Speaker 2: Mega fires in the summer. Are you going to lose the foliage popping up and then it dries out? Perhaps faster than ever with this. And in Chile, the other side of it, of the flooding more than a decade of mega drought brought a summer of mega fires to Chile because they're just. Finishing their summer in Southern Hemisphere. I hadn't read it much about that, but mega fires. Down South. And and the recycling things. There's another thing about plastics here. This big fire in eastern Indiana. Toxic burning of plastics. At a plastic recycle plant, yeah. It was ever expanding plastic recycling and then it torches goes up in flames and everybody had to evacuate and very toxic. Plastic waste in the air. Black fumes. Yeah. Well, there's been stuff about that too. If you've got 1000 different kinds of plastics there. Is no one. Way to recycle plastic. You know, Speaking of not that simple. So what is? You know, it's it's just rhetoric. Let's just recycle everything. Wait a second. How does that work?

Speaker 3: Well, plastics, this, this one is on Gulf War illness affecting up to 250,000 vets is studied and that this was an article talking about the chronic disease is mysterious and chronic disease that affects hundreds of thousands of troops who served in the Persian Gulf during operation. Desert Shield and Desert storm. Department of the VA and national. Health finally announced A5 year study to understand the disease amid other efforts by the VA to better diagnose, treat and compensate veterans who have diseases related to exposure to toxins to toxins during wartime serve. So basically, 1/3 of those vets are affected by the Gulf War syndrome and they're getting around to studying it. You know how how? How does that bode well for the environment and and the people in the current conflicts.

Speaker 2: Yeah, worse and worse. Here's a quick Anthro thing. Thank you, Jason. Jason and Philly sent us from Science News March 29th. You know, interesting stuff about when human species mastered fire for cooking meat, for example, and the and what that changed and so forth. Well, this is a big piece about Paleo diet consisted largely of rotten meat. Putrid meat would sicken us. Even the smell of it would make us sick with modern, non robust human. They have fire. It's not that they didn't have fire, but they but the human Organism could also easily down very decomposed animals. And some of this is from actual recently surviving hunter gatherers, not just the Paleolithic record, but kind of interesting. It just shows how. Much more robust. One of these things from from a little bit more contemporary contemporaneously. Somebody I forget where it was, but they were on in a canoe in a swollen, very, very badly smelling dead rat floated by and they grabbed it up and ate it. And the western the the lawn. An anthropologist guy just threw up and can can hardly even stand it.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: And they just chowed down. So even that is. You know these things about how. They could again, somewhat recently, these people are probably gone now, but could see the moons of Jupiter with the naked eye and so forth. You know, very acute sensual capacities. That's another one we compute.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.



Mass shootings: "It's Everywhere!" Quit Social Media discussion. Graffiti #3. Diseases spreading, species dying off. The youth ain't buyin' it. Ad of the week: AT&T "Connecting Changes Everything." New AI brings 'catastrophic thinking.' 'existential anxiety.' E. Gudkowski counsels 'nuke it all!' Green EV ruins planet. A machine to read your mind. New Fifth Estate, new John Gowdy book. Action news, one call.

Speaker 1: That's a lot about NBA, and I think I had a great time. Tonight was great, sharing the airwaves with you guys and. Thank you for listening at home. It's been a great crack, smack today and we'll hear. We'll we'll talk to you guys later. This is crack smack on Kwa idiot. Put one of them. Don't go anywhere.

Speaker 2: Can't stand the beat. Too much? Get too much of it. I have to say. Expects disappointed me, so I guess I will. To be. It's too much. I've been thinking too much. It's our way to think that. A king. Drink with friends. Broken hearted here. We're all broken hearted.

Speaker 4: Well, you are listening to K WVU, gene. It is now time for anarchy radio and it seems that we've had our musical introduction already and we're going to just jump right into it. I'm here in. The studio with. John numbers 5. 413460645.

Speaker 5: I apologize for last week's no show, there was no. Broadcast of any kind. Hence there was no recording of any kind of giant snafu. This isn't totally clear how that happened, but. Yeah, too bad. After you know a. Fair amount of work to get the. Hour together. Not a. Well, Catherine will be here next week. And by the way, there's going to be a softball game broadcast. By the sports folks. So we'll be on Channel 2 and I'll try to say that again at the end of the hour. Yeah, kind of. Got notice of that so that I. Was able to. Throw that out there and inform people. And we're going to get a call tonight. We had we had a call last week, but nobody heard this from quit social media. Very interesting. Club and project. Here at EU of O. Well, I just want to get off onto the old perennial topic. The typical carnage. Yesterday in Louisville, the Bank 13 people shot 6 fatalities, including the gunman. And by the way, two hours later. In Louisville, two people were shot at the local Community College. One dead and. The night before Sunday night home. Shooting in Orlando 4 dead. And by the way, this shooter. At the Louisville bank. Young Guy worked at this somewhat prestigious bank, as I understand, hasn't he had a Masters degree in finance? And evidently, his fellow employees found him quite normal. You know, so we get the same. Thing over and over and over the liberals. Every sentence is about guns, guns, guns, guns. It's all about guns. More laws about guns and on the right, you know, it's fair to say that they more or less say nothing. You know about it. And the right, oddly enough, are closer to the truth. I'd say, because no one tackles the basic dynamics. Of lie the rising tide of mass shootings. So it's not going to change. Not, of course, that the right is any more. Desire the Liberals to want to go there to try to. Begin to see this as a function of society at this stage of its decay. You know, and so you get all this stuff, especially the liberals. Of course, the red flag laws, universal background checks. Well, maybe millions of people will qualify, right? I mean, I think we all know somebody or heard of somebody and I don't mean people who who snap, flip out and start shooting people, but people. Who flip out. It happens all the time and somebody said about this last. A blast of shootings, if you will. It's everywhere. It's everywhere. Oh man, yeah, there's. Even more in the in the 24 hour period I could site in terms of the shootings. A week ago in Brazil, by the way, man with a hatchet burst into a daycare center. In southern Brazil, killing four kids. Yeah, rising tide of violence in Brazil and four other children were wounded. Somewhere near Sao Paulo, I think in the South of Brazil. Well, lately quite a spate of train derailments. By now this is kind of old news. The ethanol car is burning in the the middle of Minnesota, and the train derailment in the Netherlands. By the way, this is a passenger train. Dozens injured. Not quite as common as the plague of cyclones, tornadoes. In parts of the South and the Midwest here, though. Yeah, huge devastation. Flurry of tornadoes. Fact in January. Only 168 tornado reports, nearly five times that month average. Five times the number. Which was the average. Rate in 1990 and 2010. So a lot of these things are getting more extreme. Well, I'm. I'm tempted to jump into the tech stuff already, even ahead of the caller, but. I do want to mention something about this. New publication in the Eugene area, called Graffiti #3, is out. And I love the. I love the editorial. I'm going to be talking with him. We're going to do an interview tomorrow, by the way. Called frontlines, Don Wood is the editor publisher. He says he's talking about the tech. Gravitational pull. I originally wanted to keep graffiti old school analog print only. None of that there any gibberish if Med led were alive today, I'd be smashing knitting frames right there with them. Well, as long as they weren't producing my favorite PETA Gucci Fleece jackets, right. And then it goes further if he's succumbed. To it though. Has been persuaded to put his stuff on a blog, so he says that. These advertisers and contributors. Have they wanted to see graffiti on Instagram so as to broaden the scenes reach? Well, here's my strategy for broadening graffiti's reach when you're done reading. Copy. Pass it along to a friend and ask her to do the same hand to hand face to face and someone around the world. Sometimes going backward is an advancement. I love that.

Speaker 4: Yeah, Dax is here.

Speaker 5: Dax is here. Good evening, dax.

Speaker 6: Good evening again, John. It's lovely to be back on the radio for the first time.

Speaker 4: One moment please. Hello there.

Speaker 5: Hello. Hi. Sorry. Following around with the headphones. Thank you for calling.

Speaker 6: Ohh, I'm glad they've called in. It's lovely to be back on the radio. For the first time.

Speaker 5: Second time actually. Since the first time was the completely dead, but I appreciate your presence. Yeah. So can you just maybe just? Give a. General notion as to what you've been trying to do with quit social media.

Speaker 6: Yeah, I started. A club called the Quit Social Media Club I. The reason I started it was I found there was a lot. Of negatives for. Myself, just in terms of my attention span, my productivity, my kind of mental well-being, my social well-being really sort of any domain you can name, there's a reason why the mass amount of media you consume messes. Up that thing so. I found that there was all these problems for myself. And then when I kind of slowly started to get away from it, I realized I wanted to find a community of other people who also kind of wanted to get away from it. They're kind of. Yeah, I think that's it and kind of as I've separated myself from consuming so much media, I've come to realize that not only are the negative side effects on myself, but really kind of on society is large. And so I've kind of. Really taken up that. That fight, I guess kind of.

Speaker 5: Super. Yeah, needs to be found. Such unhealthy findings, I mean, just more. And more so, it's just. And you know, we were talking about this a little bit about the. The idea that. The sameness of many, many conversations, in other words, people will say they'll agree. Yeah, it's it's so deadening and empty and, you know, and so forth and so on, but I'm hooked. Right. Those two things together, I mean it's it's kind of amazing that nobody's having a great time and being fulfilled with social media, it seems. And yet. It's hard to find somebody who isn't pretty addicted to it.

Speaker 6: Yeah, completely. I mean, just today I was thinking about how it's just kind of a machine that's made to manufacture. Goodness like it makes you feel kind of content in the moment, but so many people aren't content in their lives. Like they're bored or. They're stressed in the moment they pull up in their phone and it's like putting a pacifier in the baby, in the baby's mouth. But the baby doesn't need a pacifier. The baby needs, you know, nutrients. Just in it's in life. And people aren't getting that from pulling open their phones. I think it's kind. Of basically obvious, if you look at the rates of suicide increasing for people in the age of 14 to 25. Like if you look at like rates of close friends has dropped precipitously since the early 2000s and then there are so many statistics that show in basic, you know, on pen and paper that. Like societal connection has been going down, Robert Putnam wrote about this in the early 2000s or late 1990s, when the most. You know, pervasive form of media was just. Network television or cable television. And nowadays, we. Have a form of media that is so attractive. That nobody even watches cable television anymore. Nobody I know watches it because everyone I know consumes hours and hours of media far more than they did back then, and they consume this media instead of getting more actual, like personal interaction, social interaction, meaningful hobbies, and. Life experiences all they get is the experience on a screen in their hand. But that doesn't make. Right. And that's kind of, yeah.

Speaker 5: That that putting boot blowing around. I mean that. Was present and it really is seemingly A deepening problem. You know the withdrawal, it just go into the screen, you don't need nothing else and. You know another part of that by the. Way and this shows my age and the. Laying out of it. The thing about dating there isn't any dating that isn't online. I mean, it may lead to actual dating or, you know, actual connection. But there is. I mean, it's somebody was telling me. Well, you that there isn't any. Anything really outside of them. And that's why there isn't much dating for various. You know, for example, fears on the part of women who don't know what they're getting if they're just online with somebody, you know. Could you, you know, you said something very. Very interesting along those lines about that phenomenon.

Speaker 6: Yeah. I mean, it's kind of exactly as you mentioned that with like the prevalence of kind of dating in your hand, it's made dating in person like kind of go away in a sense, it's far less common than it used to be, but the issue. Is that it's like. It's kind of such a different experience than dating in person that so many people my age are like missing out on because they've never really experienced that.

Speaker 5: Boy, that's really something.

Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's completely not how people are meant to meet. People are meant to meet through kind of casual social interactions. Yet the notion of like profile is so like a dating profile, kind of so contrived and unnatural. And how are we supposed to have, like, natural interactions? This entire process is mediated by kind of advertising yourself on this profile, very. Capitalistic in a sense.

Speaker 5: Yeah, just images putting out images I guess.

Speaker 6: It's an excellent point. Yeah, it's almost completely that.

Speaker 5: Hmm, well. You seem like a real partisan. Like you're you're wanting to really push on this. Because of its importance and. I think you for example further outreach and further involvement. You're looking for that, I think it. The same prospects for. That, I mean in terms of the. Lack of satisfaction with the with the current. Deal. I mean. One would think so. I mean, you'd think that would be available to us, you know, to to connect on that level with the that kind of critique and that kind of. Future stuff that people might want to have.

Speaker 6: You know, this is a good question for you. I hear a lot of people mention this, that it seems like there's kind of so much discontent that it seems like something will happen soon and maybe I'm just, you know, a. Little bit here before the wave gets here. But have you ever kind of heard that sentiment before, where like there's so much discontent in a political like environment or in a kind of social environment? But kind of nothing's being done right now, can you think of, like, a historical analog for that, just for my own knowledge?

Speaker 5: Well, it's it's just very frustrating because you would think there it is, it's not, it's not hidden. It's no secret. I mean, no, nothing if everyone. Pretending to be. Happy and the whole media was going along with it. And I mean, of course, the bombardment of advertising on every side is, is the false the very expensively false part of it, I would say. But yeah, you'd think there would be more. Reaction. I mean, I think there is some interest. I mean I friends of mine was just talking to my friend Fern in New York this morning and she was saying she thinks a lot more people are hip to this. Somewhat ready. To, you know, to sort of sign on and and come to that and. But all of this remains so shallow. I was just talking about the mass shootings. In the in the superficial.

Speaker 0: You know.

Speaker 6: I was going to bring that up.

Speaker 5: You know, just it's just a non answer. I mean how much worse does it have to get? Does it have to happen every high school or whatever it is everywhere, I mean. When are you going to stop and say this is something profound? This is something to do with the nature of society as it is now and how it's getting worse. How all of these dominant things are failing, but they won't go there. They'll just talk about these Band-Aid things that liberals talk about endlessly and and the others don't even.

Speaker 4: All right.

Speaker 5: Or maybe like a like I was saying the right. At least if they shrug, at least there's maybe a little bit more of some kind of honesty. It's a cop out, obviously, but they they're they would tell you. Well, you can do these various things as it worked the last 20 years has gotten worse and worse, where even when you have these things, there's virtually no difference. It's not checking the basic dynamics that are going on here. So yeah, I mean that's that's one parallel I would see. How is it?

Speaker 6: I think you're. Totally right. I've never thought about that before. Yeah.

Speaker 5: It's very tough, though. It's the denial is. You know, just pound it in, I guess somehow and what's going to break it? Who knows? Sometimes they think about, you know, when I was growing up and in the when I was a child. In the 50s. And then it was the 50s conformism, consumerism, McCarthyism. We all went backwards, stuff. It was really. Nothing happening all the way up until the middle of the 60s. And then there was an explosion all over the world. It didn't go far enough. It didn't last long enough, but nobody saw that coming. So sometimes I consoled myself with that. That was a surprise. Nobody had an explanation. But there it was. It was going on, you know, so. And for a while. Very exciting and very helpful times. You know the music, the everything changed, you know.

Speaker 6: It's a very inspiring example right there and that's kind of like what I hope. For in a sense. Is that there will just kind of be an explosion, not a literal one. But yeah, I think like. That kind of social movement, I think, is really important. I think one thing that I certainly want to say is like to the people listening. To just like think about your media consumption, because it's likely that when you reach out to consume media, you're in like kind of a moment of boredom or you don't have anything to entertain yourselves at that moment. But when you consume that media. Just think about how in that short term you'll only be kind of contented. But in the long term, like rarely are you ever going to form. Or build experiences that like. You'll be proud of when you die, you know. I kind of like when people talk about, you know, watching television shows, you know, all you know, ten seasons and watching them over and over again. I just hear this and I think, Oh my God, that's so. Much of your life like. Where you were in boredom and then you just sought out to consume. Like, are those really? Experiences. You're going to be proud of. So tonight, when you like, consume media, think like am I building an experience that I'm going to be proud of? And I think if we all start to ask that question, we'll start to find the answer. While consuming media is kind of very rarely will you feel proud of that experience? Very rarely will you. If you compare it to the other opportunities, not regret it. If you look at the opportunity cost of making these decisions like. Kind of only to realize that the opportunity cost is far more than the what we would gain by spending that time with other people spending that time on hobbies, spending our time on actually meaningful experiences. So I think that's one point that I really want to make is think about your media consumption. You realize how? You consume media like in such large quantities. Rarely are you building experiences that you'll be proud of. You're more so just. Pacifying the current board.

Speaker 5: All said, I think that's the challenge. Will you be able to look back on it? And and find value there that you know meaningful stuff.

Speaker 6: Yeah. And with like the all the shooters we have today, like the people going out and shooting, I mean, there's probably many aspects to it, but this entire mental health crisis we have. I think it's extremely tied to this issue of kind of social isolation that comes. Because if you take away this media that we consume. Like if you were to take away all this media that you consume, you become bored and then you reach out to other people. I mean probably skipping some steps and simplifying in some sense, but in other ways it's just that this media that we consume is leading us to more loneliness, and this loneliness is. Like part and parcel, a very large part of the mental health crisis that's fueling these mass shootings.

Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, very important point. And that's the deck. Thank you so much. I hope to see you in person fairly soon too.

Speaker 7: Right.

Speaker 6: OK. Yeah. I would love to meet again sometime. John, thank you for having. Me on today.

Speaker 5: My pleasure. My pleasure. Well, he nailed it and you know I. Happen to have the. Out of the week, Speaking of media. From one of the big media giants, the kind of the original big one, AT&T. It's big slogan and the full page ads in the papers these days. If anyone sees that New York Times or whatever, connecting changes everything. No, that's is saying what kind of connecting. Connecting with images. Really connecting with the machine and when in the era where we've never been so disconnected, the isolation and anything is saying that does connect right up with this pathological stuff. We people see people. Isolated and you know they're so disconnected that. That's part of just spinning out and then, you know, into the void. And these things are generally suicides as well as homicides. These shootings, for example. Yeah, well. And this. You know, in a flaming topic lately is the chat bot stuff, and just the past very few months since the end of last year. Really something I mean. They can do everything. They can write scripts. They can do prepare law briefs, write and all you name it. And not just kids pushing the button and getting a. It's on paper done, but. The ominous nature the the subverting. I mean it's. Just it's just so. Limiting in so many ways this is already a major deskilling process in general, all the technological. Advances, as they say. And I was reading in the Sunday New York Times magazine. About 10 days ago. About all this, how it's pretty scary. It even brings so-called catastrophic thinking. Even existential panic. I mean, what? What is this? Is it just taking over everything now and? And we're left finally just passively dependent. You know, and you know, like the outsourcing is used to be a lot of talk about still is about outsourcing jobs. Now it's outsourcing. Thank. There was a piece in time this this really was apropos person named Laser Yadkin Owski. Maybe you've run across it. It was so was. It stood out, and not just in time, but it's been reproduced. Ludkowski went so far as to advocate looking all of these. All these tech think tanks that are bringing all this stuff out, all this chit chat bot AI, where the algorithms at the heart of this have already been taking over. You know, it's just another. Sign of the passivity. We are allowing the algorithms to tell us what we want. You know, I mean, that's just kind of a deep seated. Advertising kind of a thing and more than just advertising anyway. It counts. I don't know. Possibly similar. Talking chick. But I'm not so sure. I mean, he says this is just the whole ball game. You know, if we let this happen. There ain't going to be nothing left there. There won't be human. Anything, really. It'll just be. All this advancing AI stuff that does it all. Yeah, man. Well. I mean, I do see more interest in the critique of all this stuff. I'm getting to do more interviews and stuff. I mean, it's my small. Piece of it, I guess, but. And here's something from The verge. This past weekend. Sheena vasani. I'm going to read this short thing. The first part is take issue with but this is our commentary. While my smartphone has improved my. Life immensely, and I'm not about to get rid of it. It's also made some things worse, mainly my brain. The smartphone. Let us lets us easily check on things constantly and immediately. Whether that's the news or loved ones, but at the expense of our attention spans mental health and relationships. How recently I barely. But I realized I barely remember most of the concerts I've gone to and why I was too busy taking hundreds of videos and sharing them on Instagram with my phone. Funnily enough, I never even watched the videos after and only did when I needed to delete them to free up storage. Well, that's pretty. Damning. And it goes right along with what Dax was saying. For sure I mean. But again, the same kind of thing. Yeah, it's crap. It's. It's still defying, and it's hideous to my mental health. And on and on. But I'd never throw it away. I never stopped doing it. It's, you know, saying it's pretty much the same exact. Deal, although she does. Have the honesty to just, you know, laid out like and and what's going on that they couldn't bear to be without, you know, namely my brain and my consciousness and so on, you know, a few things like that. And one of them is too. You know, we were talking about images on the call there. Like for example with dating. How images? Come to the fore and somebody mentioned a while back. The whole question of representation has always been elusive. But intriguing. Fascinating. You know, and maybe this is the way. To get to. What is it about representation itself? You know the world presents itself to us, but we have to represent it. We have to represent it. And we're caught in this sense. Cave paintings, I guess, representation. And how has that worked out? How has that helped? Are we getting to see the extremes of it? That's at least part of it. And all this stuff about they're Speaking of images in today's New York Times, a piece called as AI images improve. Can we believe our eyes? And it went on to. Bring in the point. There's a fear of. Erosion of trust in media, society and government. You know, if it's all sort of fake, ultimately. But we are talking about this. There's no reference point. It's all just. Cut off from any reality. Really, it's just nothing but images, you know, without any. Tailor to to walk through because the machine. And you know, deep fakes and all the rest of it, getting extremely good at that. You know, I've been seeing some of these things that one funny deal, pictures of the Pope in the sports car or the. The in the cockpit of a Jenner with these crazy clothes on, I mean, looks it looked like the Pope, but of course it isn't. And the question also in today's New York Times. Can intelligence be separated from the body? Well, that's what's happening, obviously, but. Is it intelligence? If it's not embodied? No, the answer is no, but. But the facsimile is. Doing pretty well, thank. You and the. In its destructive vortex. Well, let's let's we better take a quick music break here, I guess. Be back in a minute.

Speaker 2: Spirits, realms. Magic. Never. And you're trapped into despair.

Speaker 5: There we go and we're back. And yeah, there were some nice signs, though, here and there I was. Just see last Thursday. Not a fair amount of ink. Bangalter comes bank holiday. Is the name Daft Punk guy?

Speaker 7: Oh, I don't know how you pronounce his name.

Speaker 4: Is that right?

Speaker 5: You can't read my writing. Yeah, anyway.

Speaker 7: I know you're talking about, though.

Speaker 5: Yeah, we know. We mean here anyway. Machine like music, you know, technology with the high tech helmets on and everything very. Not exactly anything other than that, but now after a certain pause, he's back. Is in a ballet called mythology. And it has a traditional classical score. These changes too if you will in the at the end of the piece, he's quoted as saying. My priorities in the world in 2023 are on the side of the humans, not the machines, so he's become very anti robot. That was his prior deal. Yeah. It's nice to see. I want to get in some announcements here, some interesting political stuff. I can't wait and just a reminder in the Eugene area, every Thursday at 7:30. Community TV channel 29. There's talks from the wit. I forget who's up this week. The one for this month, there was no presentation for March, but. April 30th, Sunday, April 30th. The there's going to be a panel. Live at Sammons. In the evening about green Anarchy magazine. Which ran from 2000 to 2008. I think there's going to. Be three of us. We're gonna think about that and seeing what we took away from that. The Northwest anarchist book Ferry will take place in Portland, May 13th to the 14th. The heads up on that. And Speaking of more interest in the critique of. Technology and even civilization. There was a piece. I saw it at the other day. Two weeks ago, I guess. By French. Writer called thinking through anarcho primitivism. This guy seemed to be kind of reluctantly positive. Sort of. Sum it all up, but. What he was saying about the primitivist point of view is, hey, nothing else has come close to working. Maybe we should take another look at a deeper critique. Before it's too late, sort of on that in that vein. News over the predictable people who sneered anything requires some thinking. But yeah, I think that's another sign that something's in the air. I had a great film session last week with the Alaskan filmmaker Bjorn. That was really fun and I appreciate the connection through Jamie. And I seem to be doing some videos with the Russian primitivist. By the way. Hoping to line that up very soon. I've been in touch with this person. Who is?

Speaker 1: Part of the thing.

Speaker 5: There in Moscow 20 years ago, and it's perhaps now reviving a small. Bit of primitivist to critique. I don't want to spend a whole lot of. Time on this but. Got the latest issue of 5th estate. Yesterday it now fits the state recently has taken the format of that anarchist review of books. That's what the magazine is bit mainly calling itself. Kind of a mixed bag, I would say. Oh, here we go. And the review. Format has been. It's the way it's done these days. This is the spring 2023 issue. Lots of history pieces. Not the parent company in the Mexican Revolution in World War 2, passivism. Nothing wrong with looking backward. There's also fiction reviews, some reviews of. Some fiction stuff and in terms of history. Piece about surrealism Ron Zukowski is the veteran cheerleader for surrealism. This piece actually mentions. Something I think Ron never mentions. Talking about Andre Breton, who was known as the sort of Pope of Surrealism, he was the one who set the political line. You know, straight up in the way that Guinea board called the tune for the situationist group. Anyway, Britton was a Stalinist in the 20s. He headed to the French Communist Party line. And they were very Moscow oriented, hence the name Stalinist. And then in the 30s. He became a Trotskyist, another version of Marxism, Leninism. And yet the piece claims, as Ron Zukowski always does, that surrealism was so anarchist. Well, what could be farther from anarchism than Marxism? Leninism. Come on, this is just. You know, first grade stuff. It's it's it's something as intelligence to think. Oh yeah. Cool. That's fine, you know, duh. But there are some reviews of very important stuff in the issue, for example. The one on braiding sweet grass I've mentioned. I mentioned her book before. Very important one and also. Breaking the alphabet. Very nice review by Ian. So very disappointing things in Fifth Estate, but I have to say. Somewhat typical, there was a two page article promoting voting. Wow, that's so anti anarchist. My professor, you know, maybe you should rethink this abstention from voting. You know, maybe in the Goldman needs to be updated, you know? Wow, that's just a liberal crap. You can be voter, you can vote all you like, but don't try to say it's. Somehow an anarchy point of view. And the book, there was a review review of Peter Gelderloos book on organizing on grassroots resistance. And it's it's OK I guess. But in in one place. The reviewer takes issue. With the God of this book, because it doesn't boost technology. Wow, another fail. Another big time, because isn't there some wonderful community based technology and isn't technology can be very cool and you know, man, maybe want to vomit. Like I would say, maybe the most important article in the issue is what about chat bot? And that. Of course I've talked about it, I mean the. On rushing advance and all that, it includes all the threat that includes. Uh, it's OK. There's some very good bits in it, but it doesn't go deep enough. It's just on the level of capitalism, and my question is. Oh, so this chatbot AI stuff would be fine under socialism? No, it would be. Exactly the same. You're not talking about the nature of what it is if you're just talking about capitalism. Sure, the profit motive of obviously part of. The corporate tech world that goes without saying, but. You know, it's all about the nature of the technology which the. Pretty much mess, I'm afraid, not entirely, but. But quite a bit. Interesting that how to blow up a pipeline? Is now movie was based on the 2021 book, so that was pretty fast for to appear as a movie. Yeah. And apparently, well, the reviews are kind of mixed time to tell. I mean, I haven't seen it whether it's pretty good or I don't know. And you know you you want to sort of sort out the politics of the reviewer. Maybe they're horrified at the thought that anyone would. For not blowing up a pipeline. But anyway, that's, you know, you can do the guessing game on that one. But but I think the plan is. At one point that you could make is very interesting that this is widely reviewed and discussed. In other words, blowing up a pipeline that's pretty marginal stuff pretty. You know off the table kind of stuff, but. It sounds like that's not true anymore, that uh. Maybe the idea of real action? Is on the table. And maybe like the piece about primitivism. Everything else has been a complete flop, so why not? Why not give a thought to blowing up the pipeline and you know as a as a marker of? You know, property damage sabotage. Something more than the symbolic. Well, I'm dying to see this. My friend Jamie has talked about this a little bit. For my. Satisfaction little bit by John Gowdy. Who's really strong? Anthropologist, whose work has dealt with Hunter gatherer life. The one is called Ultra Social. I just want to read this. From June. From his e-mail is full on old school anti agriculture anti Sev Pro Hunter gatherer primitivism for the 21st century. Really excellent and I must know about Reid. And it says got it. Short to Jay-Z, gaudy flies heavily in the face of the grabber window, et cetera. Post modern process of garbage. Short, succinct and crushing of Holocene civilization. Those books this grounding says humans evolved to become like ants and termites via agriculture, living in colonies of worker like drones, and that we must some. Somehow find a. Way out of this very bad evolution. Man, that's sweet. Well, some. There's been action in France and it it's in the context of the resistance to the government plans to raise the retirement age. To 64 from 62 rails sabotage. In the song region in northern France, also in southern France, in the Marseille area. Sabotage of electrical facilities. And by the way, there is a new return fire volume 6. Many articles, one of one jumped out. To me, it's called the new Luddite rebellion. There again, we got the anti tech stuff. Lovely to roll it out and. And saying going back aways here. The week of March 13th, we damaged the vehicle of the SMA M Company, a multinational corporation dedicated to environmental devastation. Through construction of gas pipelines. This is new Loretto in northeast Italy. We have heavy equipment puncture and its wheels smashed. Its windows and headlights, et cetera in support also of Alfredo. Come speak to him and. This is this is last week, a week ago. This is from the needle in northern France. More than eight, we were raging against this rule of cages, private property, exploitation and destruction of the living. So we set fire to a group on a car which was lying around in. Some of the bad guys. Corporate wise and oh, what else? Oh, there's a new collection, a collection of Rod Coronado ridings came out about a month ago. I understand. Thank you. Rio called flaming arrows. Uncompromising, Alf. And you see that in action 2.

Speaker 1: Well, there's been.

Speaker 5: A wealth of stuff about how this green electric vehicles. Switch or shift. Is is going to be a wonderful thing, getting away from fossil fuel cars, for example in the. And here's just one out of many. This is the vice thing today. From Indonesia. In the vast rainforest. And the people? They're called omanga nyawa. They are a self isolating. Group living in the rainforest. Which is being destroyed. Devastation for these people, so that there can be. For lithium for producing the batteries, powering the electrical vehicle industry, lots of cases. This is just today's. Lose in that regard. Also today. There was a long front page story in the New York Times called Bitcoin devours energy, and others may pay a price. Well, just a reminder, I probably said this before, but the computer calculations needing to produce Bitcoin. Are an enormous energy drain. The calculations on the computer power. To crank out something that seems such a shifting sands, and how many people have lost. All their money chasing this kind of stuff is is is if it's a hedge. For the future, you know. Yeah. Well, we can't depend on governments and their currency. So yeah, let's do this. Which is even. Even weaker and more subject to. All kinds of corruption. There's a play this this is in the news yesterday called Smart. It's about an AI device called Jenny. And this is about machine companionship. Is she needing? I guess, yeah. And the the points of subtext is that. There is no substitute for an actual relationship. Yeah, somehow the machine doesn't. Doesn't really get it. Who will take care of Italies older people? Maybe robots. This was a recent piece. There is an aging population in Italy like there is in Japan and other places. Hoping robots. Yeah, that's your human connection. Yeah, it's just. As good. Well, some bad news about ozone depleting.

Speaker 1: And you know.

Speaker 5: They were banned. They were taken out of service. In terms of use in refrigerators aerosol. And other solvents and so forth banned globally. The Montreal Protocol agreed to in 1987. So Hooray the ozone hole. It's going to shrink. Well, not so fast. It's been increased. Rapidly between 2010 and 2020. Reaching a new record. This is scary stuff and the reason is these. Are still permitted to be released as byproducts in the production of other compounds or immediates intermediates. To produce other chemicals and that's not covered by this protocol. And you can always count on these protocols. These global agreements, and this was in the journal Nature Geoscience. Along with the onrushing technology, one of the kind of quotidian. Almost prosaic parts of this is. Face recognition technology. They firm Clearview Clearview is a big facial recognition firm. Has run nearly 1,000,000 searches for US cops. Then the statement to the BBC. Very invasive stuff and yeah, problematic all over the place. Now they're. Using it at sports events and you know all over the place. There are a little more restriction in Europe and Australia, for example. Fines for breaches of privacy, but. Not so much sure. Wow. Wow. Sort of caught up with last week. I didn't want to just repeat everything that was said last week. Carl falls asleep midway in the show anyway, so I didn't worry about boring him. But you know. Well, thanks for tuning in. And Catherine and I will be here next week. And a further reminder we'll be on Channel 2. For the broadcast.

Speaker 7: If you just go to the website, if you listen on. If you listen on the radio, you have to go to the website next week anyway, but when you go to the website to listen, if you normally go to the website to listen, you just click the. Stream 2 instead of stream one. Thank you.

Speaker 5: I was about to explain that.

Speaker 7: I just woke up and it and it hit me.

Speaker 5: Nice catch. Take care of there. See you next week.

Speaker 3: Call me the wrong. Really rock your neighbor. I can Rock You all night long. I can let. You down? Thank your money. Rocky, I want you to have a chance. Let you down. And shelling on the plane. Sound raining and shaking. Don't say to me. Don't mean a thank. Shake your daddy. I just shake like I will loves you. Call me the rock. I can really run. I can really rock. Don't let me take your stand.


Foul-up at the station: no broadcast, no recording.



Oak#5! "If We Don't Master AI, It Will Master Us." More on domestication; civ and childhood. The multiverse: no here-and-now. Global climate anxiety among youth. London's Lonely Girls Club. Epidemics, crazed weather. Ad of the week: National Conservancy plugs AI. Recalls, tech fails. Facial recognition, 'augmented reality' on rise."Poverty?" by JZ. Resistance briefs.

Speaker 1: Wow. Hi. You're listening to KWVA, Eugene, where it's 7:00, and it's time for anarchy radio. And I guess we need to, we need to figure out how to turn on the lights in here. It's dark and cold. It's it's dark and cold. It's like we're an underground cave. There's going to be. Some hand around hazards for us to deal with, so we're going to take a little music break right at the top, listen to music from the jaws of Brooklyn.

Speaker 0: For someone to. Say my name.

Speaker 2: Looking for you, March 28th, 2023 Anarchy Radio. Call on me. The number is 541-346-0645. It was so cold and dark in there I couldn't.

Speaker 1: I I think no. It and let me see if I can.

Speaker 2: Girls on the. Job. Yeah, he may have given out the number anyway, but. Yeah. And he solved the lighting problem. Oh, and I think if you turned off the Frigidaire oak #5. Showed up in the mail today and I was distracted quite a lot thinking about it. Almost neglecting this hours worth of anarchy radio, can I talk about it next week? Yeah, it's, by the way, it's sold out already. It's spoken for. Got a little money squeeze going on. With Steve so. I certainly can't solicit money. This is non commercial radio. But just just a word to the wise, there's that's the only reason why this is. The run is already out. It would have. Been bigger. It would have been more than 500. If you're thinking about oak, it's quite something and I do want to. Take the time to get into it next week. Well, let's see. Got to mention the shootings, I guess yesterday in Nashville, 7 dead at a Presbyterian school slash church. 28 year old. And by the. Way also yesterday in Sao Paulo, Brazil. The 13 year old student stabbed four teachers and two students. One fatality there. And let's see, this was last Friday in Berlin. 61 year old Man killed was killed. Wait a minute. Let's see. Three people were wounded in a hand grenade and knife attack. In Berlin that happened. Friday night. So you don't have to have a ton of guns. Some of these countries. Guns are pretty rare if not proscribed. But the thing that's going on is this kind of. Mass death, if you will, is. Spreading said before. And let's see of military veteran veteran gone down three kids and an active duty soldier in South Carolina. That was Tuesday the 21st also. I think this other one was the 21st, but here's a piece locally pretty much locally. Our police shootings recurred in Salem. Salem is the state capital of Oregon, just up the road north of here. Pretty alarmingly high higher rate. Cops killing people in other Oregon cities. Yeah, some of these things, man, it isn't just the big city. Between 2012 and last year, Salem cops shot and killed 10 people. Anyway, I won't get into all the numbers here, but. Yeah, that's kind of freaky in itself. Nice, fairly quiet state capital, lot of bureaucrats and. Well, one more thing on domestication. Wanted to start up two weeks ago. I think there was a. It was a piece they referred to. About the toll on horses and their riders. Spinal wise and other deformations from the domestications. And then it went on into elephants. And there's more on that. And again Marcus chiming in. In part, this is a story. From well, in particular, 71 year old female elephant disfigured after working. In the tourist industry. Ferrying tourists around on its back. You know, just the whole panoply of domestication and and the particulars. In this case, some of the larger quadrupeds. And here's a. Is a very early thing. Well, early civilization. A new book. Brenna hassert. As a book called Growing Up Human, the evolution of childhood. This was uh. Reviewed in the Times literary supplement, by the way. Yeah, the fruits of civilization. The turns out that the first ritualized violence may have been human sacrifices. Of 12 year olds. This is about 5000 years ago. And the bones of children dating from 2000 years ago in the salt mines of what is now called Austria. Show severe arthritic. Degeneration from carrying blocks of salt on their heads. Yeah, none of this existed before domestication slash. You know, the early civilizations just jumped right off into. The horse, so. Well, I'm going to. I'm definitely going to go into some tech stuff. But here's something just jumped out and it jumped out like #5. From yesterday's New York Times. And it was answered by three people anyway. It's it says so much. Just the just the title of this piece op. Which is, if we don't master AI, it will master us. And which is, you know, good. OK, the writers talk about. AI Visa V the foundations of societies. That are that the foundations of our civilization are at stake. You know, they're stating that artificial intelligence will control everything, including symbolic culture. But wait, it is symbolic culture. Anyway, what came to mind kind of glaringly is. Yeah. If we don't master AI, how? OK, please, how? Do you have any hint? Any clue of what you're talking about? Or which are espousing or counseling. No, of course not. You know more. More silly. Pointless stuff. I mean, the point isn't silly, but the. But the objective was 0 content. Kind of pretty much is. Yeah. If we don't master AI, we'll master us. OK. Well, we're certainly slated for a green, sustainable future. And part of that, it's the same old extractivism that it always was. But one of the maybe looming cardinal features. In today's world is deep sea mining. Got to get down to the seabed and mine the heck. Out of it in particular. To get nickel manganese cobalt. For electric cars. Yeah. Well, you trying to complete the complete the. Disfigurement of the natural world. But the goal is electric cars don't forget. Yeah, that's going to be wonderful. I mean, this is really kind of hideously obvious. And meanwhile. Oceanographers, biologists and other researchers have warned that these plans would cause widespread pollution to destroy global fish stocks and obliterate marine ecosystems. A small price to pay for electric cars, after all. Yeah, which pollute less. Yeah, they do pollute less in their operation then. Gas guzzlers, but. You know what's always left out is the cost of building electric cars, not to mention the very, very heavy lithium batteries and all the, you know, contingent stuff that's. But let's not. Look, a gift horse in the mouth because. We need electric cars. Everybody knows that. Well, there's a funny odd. Scary little thing from Euronews last Thursday. There is a pretty obvious connection between Rd. traffic. And air pollution. But this further one. Published in JCC advances. Study in this journal. Surprising that the association being Rd. traffic noise and high blood pressure. Was very robust to leave aside the air pollution part of it, but ah yeah, noisy Rd. traffic. And hypertension. Let us count the ways. And the severe erratic weather, or something else. This is kind of interesting, that Aurora Borealis, also known as the Northern Lights. Were seen Thursday night in parts of Northern California. Northern California. It's not the furthest part of Canada. Or Siberia, but yeah, extremely rare. That you get to see that? In California. Yeah, it's it's worrisome. Oh, it's pretty cool sight to see, but I think that goes along with the. Climate anxiety, it seems to be plaguing. Especially the world's youth. Thanks RC for this one. This is from the Week magazine on Friday. 2022 survey of 10,000 individuals ages 16 to 25. Found that over 50% of respondents were very or extremely worried about climate change. And about half. Said it impacted their daily lives. Higher clinical symptoms of depression and anxiety. That's serious. That isn't just. Yeah, we're that's pretty sketchy. Yeah, we're bugged about that. Yeah, now it's more more than that. It's. Part of this story says so. They know that the world is going to get to be a harder, darker, scarier place. And they've got some long years. One hopes to. To realize that reality to live that reality. In the Friday, March 24th New York Times, the story about how. Autism rates. Risen again. This is based on. Data from the years 2018 to 2020. So it's before COVID musically. Or mostly. One in 36 kids. It's the focus on children. And you know it's always. Accompanying these things, especially Visa V autism, I think. Is the question? Well, it could be just more scrutiny. You know better screening it isn't there? There are that many more. Young people, but that's beginning to sound a little flat, that's. You know, it may be something of a factor, but it doesn't account for the general rise. I think there's pretty much a consensus on that one. 01 other thing that's rising is the number of whales washing up on East Coast beaches. Dolphins, in particular on New Jersey coast. Attributed to industrial shipping and climate change. Found this interesting today. Based in the New York Times, quote income gap becomes the physical activity divide. From the CDC and this is just straight up. Statistics, basically. Namely, that 70% of kids from family income of $105,000. A year or more? 70% of. Kids from families like that engage in sports activity. You can find them on sports teams or in the. Gym, whereas only 31% of kids below the poverty line. That's quite a bit less than half. So you've got the stereotypical soccer mom who can drive a bunch of kids around in a big van. Or. Something and or schools that get more tax money have more facilities than. Schools in poor areas. And I also wonder one thing that was left out completely. In terms of this, look at that that picture of. Physical activity, visa. Visa. Is the role of technology and you wonder. Does everyone now not have a cell phone? I think that's kind of like pretty much everyone. There used to be a lot of talk about accessibility. We got to make sure. The pool of access to online. So that they can have phones and everything else. But I wonder. If you know how many people, how many kids? Are glued to their screens in lieu of going outside. Or not to mention being physically active. That would be interesting. And and I don't know what the answer is that I. I think that it's. Conceivable that poor kids spend more time. On the screens but that I might. Be wrong about that. But it could be part of the picture. Emotional health. This is interesting from the BBC last Thursday. Article about London's Lonely Girls Club. The Lonely Girls Club has 31,000 members and growing. And it speaks to a presence of severe loneliness. Yeah, it's another sign. Thanks Richard. Oh boy. The deadly Marburg disease is spreading into African countries. More deaths than cases reported. This is also last Thursday. It's similar to Ebola, a viral. Hemorrhagic fever. Bad news, and of course the. The deadly fungus that's afoot in this country. It's been more on that in the past week. Spreading and. And some of these things do have direct relationship to climate warming. Let's see what is the source of this. This is another story from Thursday. The writer is Denise Chow. Yeah, getting back to the old scary one flesh eating bacterium. Maybe hear about that once in a while, people. Jump into the warm lake, especially in the South and a few of them. Get a horrible. Brain eating thing? Well, the flesh eating bacterium. Are thriving in waters farther north. Things heat up. The water heats up. Still rare, but further evidence about human health and the health of the planet are inextricably linked. Yeah, this is in the journal Scientific reports. And they're predicting that it's just going to, really. Go way up. As part and parcel of the glooming of the warming thing. Another negative thing is telling Carl. I think you missed it, but that this was given out yesterday, the Kennedy Senator, Senator Mark Twain Humor Award. Was given to get it Adam Sandler like you think that like with Pauly Shore in the running for that one too. Right. Another cheesiest worst character cringe where they come on. This is a new low in pop culture. I just. Oh, Mark Twain and Adam Sandler in the same.

Speaker 1: It's practically the same guy.

Speaker 2: Right. They're the same guy.

Speaker 1: It's practically the same guy.

Speaker 2: Well, sure, you know similar writing, similar intelligence, similar originality. That just I just thought that's got to be a joke. Sadly enough, it isn't. No, no. Oh Lord, man, that California is just getting hammered. At least they're getting wet. Which is good in many cases. If you live in the Central Valley, it's some of which is underwater now, but tornadoes. In the LA area, last in the middle of last week. Yeah. Incredible. And. 2 and 100 mile an hour. Tornadoes, not cyclones. Tornadoes. I think it's the. Right. One in. Mississippi and Alabama, 26 or more dead up to 200 miles an hour. Oh, that's. It's getting pretty crazy. Well, we know about the. I think it was the. Oscar winning movie. Everything, everywhere, all at once. Right. Big hit movie. About parallel realities. And that's kind of. That's no small thing these days. The whole multiverse thing. There was a piece in Sunday's New York Times called the Multiverse nearly ruined my life. And you know, when you think about it, there's no more here and now. If it's all parallel realities, right? It's just somewhere else and simultaneous realities, all that kind of thing. And it's interesting that that's. That's the thing these days. Very much so. Well, Artemis slipped through the show last week and he told me. He fell asleep and I wondered why I wasn't pushing his upcoming scene plastic in utero and I said I did. And he goes, oh, I missed that part. Maybe really from tonight. Yeah, but you know, I am going to, I think wait until next week to talk about issue #5 evoke, which is just amazingly strong. And varied. Yeah, it seems to me the best one yet anyway, not to jump off into what I wasn't going to talk about. But this is a new thing and things come and go, you know, they just do, I mean. This turned out to be fortunately not that big of a story, but yesterday. In the new chemical plant north of Philadelphia. Leaked over 8000 gallons of acrylic polymer into a tributary of the Delaware River. Which is the source of Philadelphia's water. So they put out a warning right away. Use bottled water. Well, they got to resend that, I think before yesterday was out. Supposedly they've prevented that from getting into the Delaware River. OK. We can sneak in a little bit before the break here. Yeah, and then we'll get to. The usual techno craziness and other stuff. And some Action News too. Just got to mention the recalls every now and then, if not more than that, lucid motors the big. EV, they they I think they focus on luxury. Electric sedans under the air. They're recalling a bunch of those, or a faulty switch in its electrical system, which could cause it to suddenly stop. This actually is the third recall since Lucid started its air sedans, its EV's. In October of 2021. That makes me think of Tesla, right? There's never been a Tesla model that hasn't been recalled. Ah, the wonders of. Go scale rocketing technology. Today, 330,000 Honda vehicles were recalled. And I don't think any of those are even. On Sunday, it was reported that Lufthansa's operation the Big German Airlines. Were disrupt disrupted at Frankfurt Airport Frankfurt. Is one of the main. One of the two or three main airports in Europe. Yeah, technical problems. Cable damage last month. Caused Lufthansa, Lufthansa's computer systems to fail. Resulting in delays worldwide. Yeah, that's big. Old. That's Germany's biggest airport. Another tech fail. As we go along. Put in the add of the week. This kind of flow would be not quite as much as the Adam Sandler Award. Notification but. This is from The Nature Conservancy., The Nature Conservancy. Full page ad. In The New Yorker magazine. Shows underwater a picture of the school of fish. We're fishing for solutions with artificial intelligence. Yeah, that's it. Artificial intelligence. That's the key to conserving nature. Amazing just so. Cut off from reality. We've got some music we're going to have a little break, this is. What is this?

Speaker 1: This is. 24 seconds long. What? Yeah, it's dead ghosts, but let's see what it what? It's all about maybe it it it. Has a whole statement in 25. Seconds. Who knows? Or?

Speaker 2: Oh God.

Speaker 1: Maybe we're just going to go into. The next track. Let's find out what happens.

Speaker 2: Thank you. It was a pleasure. Getting back into a little bit of writing. This is a little bit I'm going to read this since finishing up the memoir, by the way, I haven't heard from Firehouse, my erstwhile publisher. And then up and they're going to. Agreed to publish some. Memoir, it's got some wild graphics. Anyway, poverty. A big favor remind of is William Morris's news from Nowhere, 1890. His protagonist awakens one morning in Hammersmith. And industrial suburb of London to find the air and the Thames clean. He is ferried across the Great River by one who is uncomprehending when his passenger drives to Pam. Progressively, he discovers A bucolic arcania. A world of grace, freedom and fellowship. A world released from the massive white ugliness of industrialized wage slavery. Not a dream, but a vision of the future. Is Morris's assertion at the novels ending? Quite opposed to such a vision as Ernst Bloch, a prominent Marxist utopian in quotes. Whose works include the principle of hope and the spirit of Utopia. Black was incensed with Morris's idea of revolution, in which quote, not only the capitalists but also the factories will be destroyed. In fact, the whole plague of civilization in the modern age will have been removed. Block makes his utopian orientation brutally. Clear, for example, all honor to the industrial revolution. We must surely think busily industrially, for in this breathless pace, in this acceleration, disquiet and expansion of our sphere of activity, great spiritual and intellectual works are latent. The latent has borne. Fruit the dead zone of industrialized reality, glaringly apparent in every sphere across the board. And it's this very late day leftist. Chomsky, Graeber at all have yet to come to their senses and their fundamental agreement with block details aside, the modern world is ruled by two realities. The commodity and wage labor, the price tag and the paycheck, never more so than now. The left proclaims its desire to to do away with this arrangement of life. But contrary to Morris, it embraces the dominant techno industrial complexity. How then, do commodity and wage labor go away? Are things free workers not pay? Now the left wants the modern world, with its millions of wage slaves just as much as does the right. Or they'd be deluded, anti industrial morrisite, or worse, primitivists. Marshall Sounds offers a wide angle. Take both profound and witty on the nature of affluence. In the original, affluent society, he measures of Paleolithic individual versus the modern businessman. And finds the former losing in every respect. For example, output productivity. Nothing is affluent in a conventional sense. The answer is obvious to solids. However, it isn't the businessman who always strives for more, but the hunter gatherer whose needs are met. Which one is poor while possessing little or nothing? And who has so much at the expense of others in the Earth? If we are to have a future, we'll have to be somehow primitive. Some of us have tried to rescue the term primitive from its usual pejorative usage. Refashioned as a term of value, not backwardness rooted in the indigenous dimension, it may be that a similar reexamination is needed regarding the meaning or meanings of poverty. Of course, poverty is often seen as a virtue of value in various religious traditions. The 13th century Zen Buddhist Dogen promoted freedom from greed and possessions in material as well as spiritual life. His ideal of poverty, simplicity and purity exalted the ancient tradition of living under a tree in the forest. For Duggan, there existed unlimited richness in the spirit of absolute poverty. The contemporary Christian Thomas Morton put it this way. The importance of detachment from things, the importance of poverty is that we are supposed to be free from things that we might prefer to people. Whenever things become more important than people, we are in trouble. Enrolled in the non religious Thoreau council's simplicity, simplicity, simplicity, and declared. I should be. Glad if all the meadows on Earth were in a wild state. He found that quote every morning was a cheerful invitation to make my life of equal simplicity. And I may say within it since, and I may say. Innocence with nature herself. What a contrast with leftist ideas. The concept of production is the basic link between the philosophy and economics of Marxist thought. Mass production most decisively, which introduces mass consumption and mass culture production, which categorizes and stigmatizes what we think of as poverty. But that doesn't mean that poverty does not exist. Not at all. Millions are cold, hungry, unhoused Matthew Desmond's poverty. Poverty by America. New Emily discusses his persistence in this country. Can the planet avoid becoming unlivable? The direct and. Mediated life for so long made us truly human. The poverty of little or no division of Labor. Was the real affluence, the wholeness that must prevail once again, poor and simple is required. All right, that's. See that was short. Yeah, I want to get into some more political stuff. Little resistance stuff for the upcoming. Going to take place. As we go forward into spring. This is in last Wednesday's New York Times price of prevailing over a giant. And this has to do with. You know, there's a certain. Amount of. Unionization tech workers, baristas. Others. This seems like this Amazon Labor union could be. Independent effort. As these things. Have to organize. New forms perhaps? Because organized labor is. Has been pretty dead and useless basically for. For so many decades anyway, there's this piece. Price of prevailing over a giant is all about how anti democratic from the start this Amazon Labor union in caps. That's the name of the union. And there's a struggle between the. Labor bosses already. Is a quote. From the headhunter going forward, here's the structure. If you can't abide by the structure, that's the door. Yeah, it takes. It happened originally very quickly. The bureaucratization, the lack of rank and file. Well, better news. The Israeli Government is just backed down. After many days of very militant protests across the country, they've withdrawn their proposal to neuter the judiciary, as any independent arm of the government temporarily. Anyway, they're going to try to get this get back on that horse soon. No doubt. Well, here's some upcoming stuff here. And I guess book fair is a whole week, March 27th, April 2nd. Had a good time in Valencia rotten and I was just down the coast. From Barcelona. And the Wildcat book and scene fair in Sydney is April first, also April 1st. This is pretty cool. This the festival of foolishness starts this Saturday in Melbourne. Read a little bit of. This welcome to the first International Pirate holiday celebration of subversion, bringing together pirates, anarchists and rebels to share tools for mutiny and subversion. We have games, music, art, film, workshops, stalls. Attention given to themes such as digital safety, mutiny against the boss, what is anarchism, really sworn organizing punk, veganism, radical sex work with an opening of the Incendium Radical library? On 144 Sidney St. Presumably in Melbourne. Pretty neat. Let's say March 21st and that was last Tuesday, a week ago in Barcelona. Beginning the 151st day of Alfredo Cosmetology hunger strike. As some of you know, for sure is their death. They burn a pro seguer. Car. That's a big security company. And the the company. Communicate says don't say we are few. Just say that we are signed. Some individuals with anarchist tendencies. And this was. Oh, this is earlier. This is March 18th.

Speaker 1: In Athens.

Speaker 2: Saturday night the 18th, we chose to attack the Italian company generally one of the largest insurance companies in Europe. Insurance company sells the illusion of security, which we broke when we smashed with hammers, about 40 windows of their new headquarters. On Singura Ave. Action done as a minimal set of solidarity with the anarchist comrade Alfredo Cosby Doe. And the fight goes on. It's a good ten days now. Efforts across France against France's new pension bill. Which would require workers. To work in additional 2 years from 62 to 64 before they could get a pension. And this. This is the story in the New York Times kind of gives it away. This is from sanity, quote after dark protests over Francis Pension bill devolves into vandalism. Yeah, let's just have protest. Just stand around with a sign which never gives you nothing. Yeah. Vandalizing. Well, that's one way to put it. Now they're they're for real. And that's going to be what it takes to beat back this because. The government is taking a hard line. Let's see more than two dozen people who were reportedly injured on Saturday this past Saturday. As police clashed with environmental activists protesting a Jain and agricultural irrigation reservoir. Being built in rural Western France, this is. Industrial agriculture writ large. Yeah, they don't like these mega basins. Of the tear gas police vehicles burned. People throwing projectiles. Well, I've got, I've got my chronology, a little skewed here, let's say, but. Anyway, during the night March 9th to the 10th. The damage of the railway electrical supply took place South of Toulouse at southwest France. Fiber optics also impacted. We are among those who refuse the recuperation of the central unions in their little dance of power. They're contending that some of this union stuff. Which would be far from the first time. Is it kind of a shadow play? And they're not really serious about opposing? This government neoliberal reform to make people work longer. Despite the unprecedented scale of the blockades, all this week and the mobilization of many sectors, we see the contempt of the government, the denial of the media and Union leadership already prepared to withdraw. We will still be many to fight against this deadly system. They see through it. Pretty well I would say. I'm sorry again with the scrambled chronology. Electricity pile on sabotage at the power plant. Near open pit coal mine. And Northwestern Germany, this is power to operate, said mine. 80 meter high pile on has fallen. The operator of one of the country's largest power plants believes it could be an active sabotage. And March 15th and Leipzig E Leipzig in southeast Germany. We attacked the police station with fire during the night of March 15th, International Day against the police and their violence. Our incendiary devices hit. The patrol car is parked in the yard. Three of them were burned. We remember the 36 year old was shot by cops in his apartment et cetera et cetera. Other pig atrocities were mentioned. And in the early hours of Wednesday, the 22nd of March. It was last Wednesday. We attacked an antenna repeater with fire inside the great Ring Rd. of Rome. We identified this objective in order to strike the telecommunications apparatus and to express our solidarity with the anarchist comrade Alfredo Caspio. That Jesus, now it's about. 160 days on, I think for him. Solidarity with him.

Speaker 1: OK.

Speaker 2: The 1st 3D printed rocket. From relativity, space rocket is called the Terran 1. Exploded. This was reported on Friday. Yeah, 3D printing purely it doesn't make a worthwhile rocket. And that's something is a good one from Richard that. Friday in the. News. It's harder than ever to step away from our devices, which are so entwined in our lives. Is it fruitless to even try? And this refers to these digital detox things often seen in the summer times. Where people just take a vacation from their devices. But this piece points out. I was talking about the CEO Guy. Who had 10 tick? Free days at a Polynesian resort. But it points out for most people. It's an impossibility, especially now. How are you going to take a break? When everything. Uh is online, you know, and uh. It's a coveted challenge to to do the digital detox, but harder to accomplish, even far harder than since 2012. When people first use the term digital detox. Yeah, 2012. It would have been a cakewalk compared to. Now, where more than ever our lives are impossible to detangle from technology. Well, that just underlines the deal. Yeah, that's what's at stake. You know you're going to do it or not, or you're going to just. You know, take a little break and pretend to. And even that isn't very doable. I got a nice message from a friend of mine who lives in Athens, a musician and filmmaker. Thomas, he writes. This is about Jaron Lanier, the VR guy, the. Dreadlocks guy, who once in a. While criticizes the technology that he pretty much introduced. He's internist is taking. He's he's disagreeing with the thrust of Lanier's piece. He writes. From my perspective, the danger isn't that a new alien entity will speak through our technology and take over and destroy us to meet the danger is that we'll use our technology, become mutual, unintelligible, or to become insane. If you like, in a way that we aren't acting with enough. Understanding and self-interest to survive and we die through insanity, essentially. Yeah, that's that's in a nutshell. And Thomas, this is this is worth. Sharing I think. Thomas also says until now the primary use of AI algorithms has been to choose what videos we would like to see in YouTube or whose posts. We'll see on social media platforms. And here believes it has made us lazy and incurious beforehand. We would sift through stacks in a record shop or browse and book shop. We were. This is a quote from linear. We were directly connected to a choice base that was actually larger instead of being fed this thing through this funnel that somebody else controls. Yeah, that's the. That's the so-called marvel of algorithms, right? It can know what you want and and feed what you want and avoid what you might be challenged by. So in this part, Thomas is seconding that from tech guru when there. He writes. This is so true. I remember the late 90s, early 2000s, when I used to go to the secondhand record store in Stockholm, where you always found some really interesting records. One time the record store owner borrowed my guitar and started playing along birds of fire with Ma Vishnu Orchestra because I was really into John McLaughlin during that time. These kinds of spontaneous interactions making decisions. And exploring new stuff in real world becomes less and less. That's why I think going to the gym has become so important for my mental health recently, especially since I'm working with Technical Support from home. Even my interactions with coworkers are online, with customers, etcetera. Anyway, just some thoughts. Thanks for that, it's. That's at a living level. How it works?

Speaker 1: OK.

Speaker 2: You better listen, you got mere minutes to call 541-346-0645. Well, back. For the MO to chat bots. This is from the Sundays New York Times. Peace called. We need to talk, but first I'll consult the chatbot. That's scary enough. And what? What it's all about is the chat bot for advice about dating parenting work. Again, there's no here and now. And there's no. Yeah, the machine. That's how you get some understanding and experience and. And have a little wisdom about. Whatever relationships and. And everything else. We need to talk, but first I'll consult a chat bot. You know, it's sort of like sort of some. Tongue in cheek. But I don't know reading it over. I sort of doubt that it really was or just maybe playing the. A little game. Little fake game with that pretending to be maybe tongue in cheek, but not so much. And here's something about the. Technology, the neutrality of technology that for a long. Time I've been. Harping on, I guess that it's never neutral. Go back to tools even before systems of technology, you can read the dominant values. In the social Organism by. Looking at their tools. Adorno, with his sociology of music, philosophy of music, said the same thing about music. You can see every single tension and. Everything else that's going on. In the dominant society in the music, the structure of the music. Neutrality. This is from. Last Saturday. Piece called conservatives aim to build a chat bot of their own. Yeah. Well, yeah, they're worried that these chat bots are liberal in some way. They're invoked. Exactly. Exactly. So. Yeah. Some perceived bias against their values in existing AI tools. Bias.

Speaker 1: That you woke.

Speaker 2: Yeah, you're you're kind of missing the deeper bias, perhaps, but yeah, they're going to have their own. No doubt.

Speaker 1: I'm sure it'll just be just as coherent as any of their. Other efforts?

Speaker 2: Yeah, I bet. Sure. It'll be just as. Transparent is Adam Sandler. Oh, oh. Beating him over the head? Well, and a little more, but. Might save it for next weekend. It will be fun to get into hope #3. I mean, I I wish more people would have a chance to have read issue 5A vote. But as I said at the top. It's pretty constricted. The 500 are gone already. Well, some people. Well, that's why they're gone because some people. We'll have it, but be nice if that's log jam is. Broken and we get even more of mouth there. Because one thing. Spoiler alert, but I had found out that there's been a lot of a lot of interest. That's why it's sold out, of course, and some great letters and just. Orders and everything subscriptions, that is and. The 92 pager. Oh, be fun to get into, and maybe they'll be. Some calls about that.

Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, thank you for.

Speaker 2: Listening and I'll be back next week. Don't forget to stay tuned for. Psychedelic. No. I mean transcendent phase.

Speaker 1: It is a psychedelic show tonight.

Speaker 2: Oh, OK.



Kathan co-hosts. UN: We have less than 10 years to avert global catastrophe. Extremes of drought, storms prevail. Surgeon General: Dire mental health of kids is mental health crisis of our times. Ad of the week: creepy Xfiniti for kids. Dependence on GPR leads to dementia(!) "Writing Your Wedding Vows? AI Can Help." Chatbots bid for friendship. 5,000 mile, 10 million pound rotting seaweed tide hits Florida, Mexico. Slow down technology?? Plastic in Utero zine, Plant Anarchy book, resistance briefs.



California underwater. Banks, trains fail. Parade of scumbags. "Mrs. Davis": Nun fights AI.Enviro calamities. Shootings. Saving Time: Discovering a Life Beyond the Clock, by Jenny Odell. "The Last of Us" ends. Technology swallowing everything. Bananas, coffee, chocolate may be gone by 2050. Meta blues. What hunter-gatherers show us. Chatbot does Nirvana tune (crap). "This Changes Everything" by Ezra Klein. One call.

Speaker 1: You been listening to quack smack on kwva. If you miss any portion of the show or just want to listen again, you can find the full show recordings online at Plus, we're on Twitter at Kwva Sports. Join us again for our next episode. Tomorrow at 6:00 PM right here on KWA Eugene 88.1 FM.

Speaker 2: More American Indians live in poverty than any other racial or ethnic group. Since 1989, the American Indian College Fund has helped thousands of young men and women begin a path out of poverty. As students at tribal colleges, as more American Indians see a college education as. A way out of. Full time college enrollment continues to rise along with the continued need for support, help the student help the tribe learn more at public service message from the American Indian College Fund.

Speaker 3: Energy Radio is an editorial collage made-up of the voices of guests, callers and its host, John Zerzan. The opinions expressed are those of the speakers and not necessarily those of kW, BA, Eugene or anyone else.

Speaker 4: Well, that's right, you're. Listening to Anarchy Radio on kW VA Eugene, I'm here in the studio with John and we're going to get going here in just a second. Our headphones on and get seated number as always. Is 54. 13460645 and we're going. To start off with some. Music from crafts.

Speaker 5: By listening to Radio 2.

Speaker 7: Please attention please. Attention please. Attention please. There is a special announcement. Attention please. Here is a special announcement. It is with very deep regret that we have to announce to you, contrary to claims made by some members of the general public, that punk is dead.

Speaker 8: That's what I thought evolution is. With your face. But outside of David Pushit Stigler standing up a synthesizer. And may have thought through I was suppose I said something like getting lunch, trying to chat. Dead Puck luck 8.

Speaker 3: Anarchy Radio for March 14th. Yes, 3. Kathy will be down here next week. California is pretty much underwater. Wow. The whole coastline and across the mountains, 30 million out of California's 40 million. Quite affected. You know, first there was the cryptocurrency collapse. Now we may be on the brink of bank bank failure. Maybe. The modern banking system, who knows? It was 2008 when the financial system collapsed for a bit. And yet more train derailments, you'd think that. Banking and rails pretty fundamental to modern math society but. It's hard to say when things are true. And one thing I noticed, I could be wrong about this, but I have this feeling that. Things are getting darker and people leave. Leave seems to me my impression here. Anyway, Christmas lights are still on in some places. I never noticed that they, you know, would go on in the middle of March. Just about none. Did you notice that?

Speaker 4: Your jeans pick up that. Yeah, Eugene's big on that. I I see him when I'm walking around all the time. I've always enjoyed it.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, a little light. Yeah, but I just thought, don't they get rid of that at January 1st or so? But no, it's it probably means nothing. I just ideologized here or something. In the darkness. Well, man, there's so many goofy things. One of the latest conspiracy moron things. I love this the ivermectin guy. Danny le mois. He's preaching you take this. Well, it's an anti parasite drug commonly used by veterinarians. Yeah, pushing it well. He died, and now the morons who followed him. Yeah, that's the answer to COVID Nah. Let me think, way back in the 70s has lived in California and the. There was a state official. I think this is when Jerry Brown was governor and there was a big controversy about spraying. Malathion or something like that? It was. It was a great big issue. They were the state was in undergoing a big push. To do a lot of spraying and people were a lot of people were opposed. And I saw this actually on live TV the the guy in Sacramento was in charge of the spraying effort. Had a glass of water. Which was obtained during the spraying, he said. Look, and he just drank the whole glass. Of water, there's. Nothing wrong with this stuff. It's not hazardous. He was dead in three days. Unbelievable. These people, you know, believe their own nonsense. But here's a nice one. There was the trailer that came out today. It's the TV show called Missus Davis. In it, a Luddite nun. Science is super artificial intelligence chat bot thing called Mrs. Davis. It's a sort of a dark comedy and I think the dark mirror people have one of those folks have a hand in in this thing. Can't wait to see it. Well, no surprise here, but it seems like. Biden is just the same as pretty much the same as Trump in terms of the environment he's approved the this gigantic Alaskan. Pipeline thing. The Willow Project Conoco Phillips is going to build it. With his approval. Yeah, he's the same as the Trump regime in terms of the. Anti immigration aspect of things too. What's going on at the US Mexican border? No better. Than the trumpster. Yeah, some people are very mad that Biden is just going to go ahead. Yeah, this massive oil project on federal land. In the Alaska wilderness. That's sure to be a disaster. And this comes on the heels, by the way. Of what happened last year, Alaska Salmon, King crab and snow crab populations just pretty much disappeared, disrupting native food, supplies and traditions. I guess that wasn't enough of a shockwave or. Powerful warning. I'm going to jump all over the place here. Try to amuse myself if no one else. I got a letter yesterday from the US Department of Justice. It said you've attempted to appeal from the failure of the FBI to respond to your Freedom of Information Act request for access to records concerning yourself. Blah blah blah. Bottom line is. The justice has gotten back to the FBI. And they're working on it two years now. Yeah, if you were dissatisfied with the FBI's final response, you may appeal again to this office. I wasn't aware that I appealed to their office at all. I was just thinking, come on. What's what's taking so long and? I don't know. It's just just. I don't know if it's the usual incompetence to take so long or just plain non cooperation. I can't tell. Speaking of non cooperation, maybe there's somebody out there who could call in and help out on another sort of non cooperation vein. I'm referring to community television of Lane County, channel 29. In these parts, trying to find out when talks from the wit. Is schedule I was trying to find a program schedule you go there you go that you get the program scheduled for 20/21. I mean CTV. Is just notoriously lame and passive, but. There's some effort to turn that around and take advantage of this local. Venue this this outlet that could be. You know, taking advantage of there could be something going on over there and I'm told that tales from the wit is already running. But I can't seem to find out when it is. Or even see a schedule for this year anywhere. Well, this is something more positive. This is from Aon magazine. AEON. And the piece this is, you might call lessons from the foragers from one. Vivek. Venkataramanan, as he will, teaches anthropology at the University of Calgary. In Canada. I just want to quote a little bit of this. In the seminar I teach about hunter gatherers, I often ask my students whether they think life is better in the past or today. There are, of course, always a few people who insist they couldn't live without a flushing toilet. But more and more, I'm seeing students who opt for a life of prehistoric hunting and gathering. To them, the advantages of modern life. Of safety and smartphones do not outweigh its tangled web of chronic indignities, loneliness, poor mental health bureaucracy, lack of connection with nature over. Learning about the. Lives of Hunter gatherers confirms a suspicion that our modern lives are fundamentally at odds with human nature, that we have lost some kind of primary primordial freedom. For a generation who came of age with Instagram and TikTok, this is a striking, albeit theoretical, rejection of modernity. Not too bad. And he goes on to. Kind of flesh this out a little more. It's put in the references. Russell, Marshall, Solons and so forth. But uh. Well done. I'm going to. A little bit of a section here. On shootings and pretty much comment on that regularly. But let's start. Terms of what happened last month, this was last week. Two days ago. I think it came out. The results of an independent autopsy. As relayed by. The lawyers for the family. Of torture, gita. Manuel Esteban Pais. Tehran. There was a press conference yesterday. This was, as you probably know, the Stop Cup city. Kid who was shot by Georgia police. Well, the autopsy disclosed that. He was likely sitting cross legged on the ground with hands raised. When gunfire from multiple pigs striking by close range, according to the autopsy. He was shot at least 14 times, including in the face. Blatantly murdered by the pigs, this guy was a pacifist. And in fact. At first, they said, well, he shot this cop in the leg. Well, in this deadly Blizzard of gunfire bullets. Coursing through his body from several different angles. One of them struck the nearby pig. In the leg is what it looks like. Just going to go back a little bit to some. Of this stuff here. In terms of shootings? Of a kind of the other side of it kind. Of the other. Tend to strike back possibly side of things. Three LAPD cops were shot in Lincoln Heights. That's near East LA. In fact, that's where the 2000 anarchist gathering on. The wonderful Los Angeles River was held. It was a marvelous event. This was last Wednesday, also Wednesday in Utah. Person killed at a traffic stop. Unarmed. Dead in a barrage of pig gunfire. And one before the March 3rd, Paterson, NJ. Black man by the name of Naji Seabrooks was shot to death during a mental health crisis. The mental health crisis was made public before this happened and during. During this murder. But of course, that didn't stop him. And as I've. Said before, by the way, there are mass shootings. Other places are on the rise in Germany. Last Thursday, 8 Dead 8 wounded at a Jehovah's Witness facility in Hamburg. Yeah, Thursday evening. Not just in the US. And on the 12th, this is just two days ago. Sunday evening, two cops were shot, 1 fatally, in the small town of Herman, Missouri, at a convenience store. Yeah, I just thought I'd give you some of the highlights of. Here and there. This is from a. Friend of mine in Athens, he lives in Athens now. Filmmaker. Musician. Thomas wrote. I find it ironic that the promise of technology. Was that we would free ourselves from work so that we could create art. But now it is AI that creates art and we are left with the work. Nicely put. And as you know. Civilization always means more work, more people working more. Yeah, funny thing about these claims. 541-346-0645. Some of the some of the striking Enviro news might as well. Put that in here. A raft of brown colored seaweed in the Atlantic is so vast it can be seen from space. This is the. Blanket of sargassum. It's nothing new, but it's getting bigger and more toxic. Yeah, this is. The biggest on record. Seaweed invasions. Of beaches ongoing in the coming weeks and months, probably real severe. Beaches, Florida and Mexico. Yeah, it's. In the Caribbean as well. In the Gulf of Mexico, yeah. All these toxic algae bloom type things are getting worse. And according to CNN last Wednesday. The world's oceans are. Polluted by a plastic smog made-up of an estimated get this an estimated 171 trillion plastic particles that have gathered would weigh around 2.3 million tons. This is a study reported in the journal PLOS ONE. International sandus.

Speaker 5: Data global data collected.

Speaker 3: Between 1979 and 2019. From nearly 12,000 sampling points in the various oceans. They found a rapid and unprecedented increase in ocean plastic pollution since 2005. And this is well known, but it's this finding is much higher than previous estimates. You know every, you know, heard about the giant plastic gyre in the North Pacific. Yeah, this is more widespread and worse. But you know it's it's just much more. Interesting to be treated with endless stories about the. But then a spread of scumbags which passes for news, mostly. Alex Jones and, of course, Trump and George Santos. Tucker Carlson. Parade of the worst.

Speaker 5: But that's it's.

Speaker 3: Entertaining. I sort of admit that it is. It's kind of it's craziness and it's it's sort of diverting, but. That's not what should pass for news for information about reality. But that is what passes for, for news and reality. Pretty much. And this keeps popping up. There's another story or two. About a A tanker, in fact, it's it's a kind of a floating oil storage offloading vessel. Just north of. City in Yemen, in the Red Sea. The this thing is called FSO safer. I don't know what safer means but. It holds more than 1.14 million. Barrels of oil. And it's just waiting. To ruin the Red Sea. This is four times the amount of. Oil that was released when the Exxon Valdez broke apart in 1989, that giant disaster. It's just been sitting there. Since when? Since.

Speaker 5: Well, little or.

Speaker 3: No maintenance since Yemen civil war started in 2015. But it's been there. It was there before that, but. It's just this gigantic time bomb. It has a risk of exploding and causing a huge environmental catastrophe. Yeah, it's just sitting there rusting and rotting. Nobody wants to get in the line of fire to do anything about it. It's not clear that any of these governments to do anything about it anyway, but. This is an enormous peril in the Red Sea going on. Another immense thing, not super super far away. Between Madagascar and East Africa, that is. To the one that would be to the southeast of Yemen, cyclone Freddie. I think this. Has been going on for over a month. It's the longest lasting cyclone ever recorded. At least six separate rounds of intensification. Very destructive. It keeps going back and forth. There's never been one. This long lasting. And powerful. Cyclone Freddy. That's a nice cute name. There has been a 20 year research project titled Plant App Atlas Plant Atlas 2020. Now published by the Botanical Society of Britain and Ireland about the status of. Plant species. And the bottom line is more than half of Britain and Ireland's native plants have declined. Since the 1950s, because of agriculture, climate change and non-native invasive species. According to this big old report. That's the whole question of non-native invasive species. That's there's some debate about that. Anyway, the climate change part. And the ever greater magnitude of domestication. There's no real debate about that. So yeah, more than half. Of what was allegedly native. To Britain and Ireland. Have declined the big a great deal. And I wonder where this effort is going. International team of scientists. This is in the journal Science. Thank you, Richard. They're trying to. Somehow get a legally binding treaty to protect the Earth's orbit from the dangers posed by space debris. This team. As stated that there are around 100 trillion, is that keyword again 100 trillion pieces of old satellites? Satellite junk? Pieces. Uh, all. I mean, you know, satellites since the 50s, the 1950s, right. So now there's an enormous, enormous number circling the planet. Which aren't even being tracked. As the global space industry keeps expanding, there are fears that this low Earth orbit stuff could become. Pretty bad. Hazardous space junk. So there is an urgent need for global consensus. I'm sure that's right around the corner. It's hilarious, I know. It's pretty gravy. On more on sleep, this is this is a constant. You know, there's all kinds of studies articles about how troubled sleep, which is. Really just one more function of. Of mass society that's getting worse in so many different regards anyways, came out last Thursday. The 9th annual Sleep in America Poll from the National Sleep Foundation. And this time we're talking about depression. They found strong associations between sleep, health characteristics and depressive symptoms. Half of all who reported getting less than 7 hours of sleep on weeknights. Some may experience milder, greater levels of depressive symptoms. With with 21% of them saying symptoms were moderate or severe. Yeah, it's only physical symptoms. Health things. But here we are in the emotional health part almost 2 thirds 65%. We were dissatisfied with how much sleep they're getting. Reported depressive symptoms. Almost 2/3. So yeah, it's just hitting. You know, it's just, you know, bellwether thing, visceral thing. You gotta get sleep. And there's so many things making it harder to do that. Well, it's a thrilling new book, Jenny Odell. She wrote her first book was called How to Do Nothing, resisting the attention economy. Which is a pretty good title, and now she has saving time discovering a life beyond the clock. It was a pretty good review in the New York Times. It's about the pandemic and it's more than that, questioning the role of work. How much time do we have and what do we do with it? They were kind of a snarky. Piece in the current New Yorker magazine, and I always seem to feel the bottom line. The main. Sort of. Geist with The New Yorker is. Kind of a. A cynical. Yeah, just just sort of a generalized cynicism about things. You can see it in the cartoons and everything else, not everything else. I mean that. That's. I'm not saying there's never a decent article and. In The New Yorker, but. You know, if the general smell of it is is there. OK. One last little thing before the break. I think it was last night or the night before the season finale of HBO's the Last of Us. Which everyone says it's how to survive the apocalypse morally. How do you navigate these choices? None of which are very good. You're trying to do the decent thing and so forth. How about a series called the How to avoid the apocalypse instead of? Accepting it as a given. Might be just a little more to the point. Or yeah, or you can just, you know, yeah. Be along for the ride. Don't do nothing about it. Don't question it. How to survive it morally? What if there's no survival? Or any questions? Alrighty. Yeah, we got a little bit of music and yes, Sir, we'll be back soon.

Speaker 9: Pack it in. Let me back in.

Speaker 0: Try and play the role and.

Speaker 9: Get up. Stand up. Then I got more bumps in the cups at a Dunkin' Donuts. Shut it down. Get down. Get down your seat and jump around. Jump around. Jump around. Jump around.

Speaker 8: Just down.

Speaker 9: But John McCain steps up. Wait to your mom. So I came. To drop Tom. I got more rounds in the bottles, got songs and. Just like the. Product I've returned. Anyone stepping on me, you'll get. Burned because I got. You ain't got no shotgun. I got this. I can't make it down. I can't make it down. So get out your. Seat and jump around. Jump around. Jump around.

Speaker 8: Jump up, jump.

Speaker 9: Right. I'm the cream of the crop and rice to the crop. I never eat a pickle as a pig, as a crop, or better yet, a Terminator like Arnold Schwarzenegger trying to play me up like this. If my name was legal. But I ain't going out like no. He's the one style later. When I might switch it up, up and around. And put out your head, and then you wake up. In the dawn of the dead, I'm coming. To get you. I'm coming to get you. Told me. I watch you. I can't make it down. I can't make it down, so get up your sleeping self around. Jump around.

Speaker 8: Get down.

Speaker 9: For your help. Still hold on.

Speaker 6: Right.

Speaker 3: Wow, that's the pink Carl in front of you. That's a horse in the background. Sounds sort of like a. Scream it's.

Speaker 4: That's a horse.

Speaker 3: Horse screaming or something? Boy, did I miss the boat. On this this he tells me this was really big in 1992. House of pain. Yeah, I thought, probably nobody ever heard of it. My hit was here's some Irish lads trying to go all hip hop, but not really making it. But it's a catchy tune. I mean, I could. I could say it was. It was a popular one, even though I didn't even have a guess about that. Oh gosh. All right, let's wind up the eco stuff here. If I said something about this before or not. Recent shortage in the UK of produce, tomatoes, Peppers and so forth. Yeah, they. Had to really try to kick in some kind of rationing there. Due to yeah stuff being in nature due to climate change and now. This was Thursday from Metro UK's metro. Bad news coming up if you like coffee, bananas or dark chocolate, and the report published by the Fair Trade Foundation does not bode well for these outfits, the. They may be gone by 2050. Too hot. Some of these, you know, tropical places. That's a delicate balance. As to whether these things can grow or not. Also, deforestation biodiversity. Trampling on biodiversity but. Preeminently the heat. And thank you, arc. It's so much about forever chemicals, which just means real toxic stuff that doesn't break down. This was in the papers yesterday or today. Total paper all across the globe apparently contained toxic PDF. AS. Chemicals, the compounds. Anyway, it's sent to sewage treatment plants in a lot of places. And creates a significant source of water pollution. New research has found. Once in the wastewater plant, the chemicals can be packed in sewage sludge that is eventually spread on cropland as fertilizer or spilled into waterways. Toilet paper should be considered as a potentially major source. Of PFS entering wastewater treatment system. Anyway, yeah more. More horrible, horrible news. Well, boy, that's what's really. Jamming up the air waves and. Other kinds of media is. The onrushing stuff with all these. Chat bots and everything Ezra Klein. Writing in the Sunday New York Times. March 12. This piece is called. This changes everything. It's all about this big explosion acceleration of. And he says. This kind of thing, this chat bot type stuff. This technology is as important as fire or electricity. Whoa, wait a minute. Is this? That kind of. Quantitative change, I mean, I'm not sure how he's. Reaching that assessment, but. This changes everything. Bottom line. You know, I think way back to I think this is pretty sure it was 2013. Was op-ed in the Wall Street Journal by a guy? Can't even think of his name now, but he was known as Ziggy Zeitgeist. He was known as. Maybe the main person who defines the decade, you know, 80S was the ME decade or whatever, he he would come up with the. Name of the zeitgeist. The reigning cultural deal in. Some way you know and. What was really odd about this op-ed piece? Is, you know, saying. Yeah, I'm thinking that guys, but I don't have one clue as to what the hell is going on. Reality is just kind of. Vanishing to to me, I just don't even can't even guess. At how nutty it's getting. He mentions in passing technology, but he doesn't really have any focus. He's just plain bewildered and. He's supposed to be easy because that guys, but he doesn't know nothing then. Anyway, we now do know what's afoot. You know, it's very blatantly obvious. So it's the same old. Question. Anybody going to do anything about it before everything gets swallowed up and determined and deformed by? All of this kind of technological imperialism, this digital colonialism, as somebody called it. You know, and it's not just the chatbot kind of stuff, the. You know this? And free deal little write your term paper or write a clumsy. Piece of music. There was a also in the Sunday New York Times for the 12. Piece called Transcendence and inspiration in techno. And this is about these techno composers, ash, fair and others and Berlins club. This club brigade, it's called. Where some of these techno composers hang out.

Speaker 5: And you know.

Speaker 3: Yeah, techno has been around a while, of course, and. I don't know what's transcendent or inspiring about it myself, but if the piece refers to the composer, the composer is. What they're aiming at, according to this piece is something like Wagner's concept. Gazan gazon you may run across it with his notion that. Somehow you can get music. Thought and words. And if you can synthesize that and have this real breakthrough and it's just all-encompassing like the, you know, the endless length of a Wagner opera, for instance, and even that was his. Desire his his object. His aim was to achieve this. Level of work in in his operas. So anyway, this techno stuff with these new composers. It's a kind of an industrialized version of what Vagner was going after. You know, in a similar totalizing reach, you know that that. That the goal is is just to kind of be this overwhelming thing. Which takes in all these different parts but is greater than the sum of its parts. Wagner was a complete, you know, scumbag of of. No bounds with his anti Semites ugliness, but. That was anyway. That's what they're talking about. And so this is the update. This is the industrialized version of that. Others will chime in to rate that as you know, as they did with Bonner. But. Yeah, it just keeps going on and on. I've got something. There's so many different. Parts all this. Where is it anyway? It was a. It was a Nirvana tune. That was pumped out by the by the chat bot thing somebody sent me this. No, I'm not finding it, but I do appreciate it and it strike me as. Lame. It sort of sounded like Nirvana. It sort of sounded like. Good Cobain but. Sort of. Not really. Just the kind of a cheesy version of it. Yeah, that these things. And I'm not saying, you know that they can't fine tune this stuff and get better at it. But you know it. Sort of gives the game away. And the other point that Marcus? Was relaying to me. He referred to the comment about. Horseback riding and how it is not good for. The humanists tried the horse and he pointed out not so good for the horse either. These loads, they didn't evolve to be doing that stuff. And even with elephants. Who can you know carry or pull enormous weights? It's bad on them. It's bad on their systems. So that was a nice. Add on there. Appreciate it.

Speaker 5: And yeah, they reminded.

Speaker 3: Me of the decemberist guy who? Said do me a decemberist type tune and the IT was quite weak. But you know it's it's going on. It's a foot everywhere. There is a piece called AI has brought powerful deep fake tools to the masses. Yesterday's New York Times. Yeah, they're they're going great guns with that. And along those lines. Facial recognition stuff. And I mentioned that in terms of ever greater surveillance. We're greater snooper. And then you know sort of sort of more quotidian everyday basis. And something was. In the, the average times for the 10th of March. The evidence against social media and smartphones is compelling. RC since this I appreciate it. And basically it's what we already know. In terms of the UK? Since that something is going very wrong for teenagers between 1994 and 2010 to share, or British teens who do not consider themselves likable. Since 2010, it is more than doubled. The chair. Who think of themselves as failures worry a lot, are dissatisfied, kicked up sharply. The same in the US. The number of US high school students who say their life often feels meaningless as rocketed during the past 12 years. Also in France. Rates of depression among 15 to 24 year olds have quadrupled in the past decade. Wherever you look, youth mental health is collapsing. And the inflection point is, yes, ominously consistent 2010, give or take a year or two. When smartphones went from luxury to ubiquity. Yeah, it's just so obvious. And going along with that study, published recently in the Journal of Technology and Behavioral Science. This is based on. Researchers, including those from Swansea University in the UK. Found that reducing social media use by as little as 15 minutes a day can significantly improve mental and physical health. So put the other way around. Even as little as 15 minutes.

Speaker 5: Added can significantly.

Speaker 3: Caused it to decline. Yeah, and. And they're talking about just everyday stuff, you know, colds, less depression, you know, that's how you measure mental and physical health or how you doing, you know, are you? You get chronically. This or that or. Bummed out? Or, you know, it's it's the real obvious stuff. Oh yeah, here's here it is for Marcus. May I creates quote new Nirvana song called Drowned in the Sun. Many years after Cobain. Swallowed his shotgun. Yeah, you sometimes play Nirvana, so I thought you might be interested in this. Hey I produced new song. It's the only way to get more material from such artists. Or the sewer dead. You know some of this stuff. Is just. Is just failing big time. The meta thing that's just a disaster. They've laid off another 10,000 or they announced today I think announced the 10,000 to be cut. The metaverse. Whatever happened to that, they're taking the parts away from it. Not shouting about the metaverse anymore. And the government, this is last Thursday government. Has opened an investigation of Tesla. During the many due. To the many crashes and recalls of its vehicles. I guess we're going to. Call our. Linden and color here.

Speaker 4: Yeah, we sure do. It's Artemis. Let me. Get this thing patched in.

Speaker 3: Oh, hello there. Greetings. How's it going?

Speaker 5: I'm good. How are you?

Speaker 3: God, your your thing is a little murky is can you get it sharper? It's louder. Yeah. What's up?

Speaker 5: Alright, guy. OK, is that better? I think so. Good. I'm doing well. So because you're talking about Jacob T, they just actually are releasing or just released. It's I. I'm not totally sure I saw earlier, but a new version of Jat, GB T Jat GBT 4 which can now respond to visual images. So you can upload an image and you can look for example an example I saw was like flower in like all these ingredients and you can say what can I make with this and it can. Tell you food you can make. So give it giving it more and more ability to quote UN quote learn right, because it's not learning. It's so much as it is just copying and, you know plagiarizing it's just an information.

Speaker 6: Right.

Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. The person applying for it is unlearning. Is is having reduced skills and so forth, less literacy and everything else.

Speaker 5: And I was just talking to Jason Rogers about this earlier is actually just the impact that has on our learning, right, it's it's kind of like a an exaggerated version of the web browser of this kind of, oh, you get this and it kind of presents it. Is, you know, the one answer to a question you may or may not have. You know what that does to to learning and knowledge generally, especially the people we already know that the so-called digital native younger generations, which is a total myth, don't know how to parse out information on the Internet. What does that mean when you give AI that seem to be, you know, the epitome of progress and it gives you an answer, it is we're totally wrong.

Speaker 3: Yeah. What happened to competing ideas? You know how to deal with the.

Speaker 5: Right.

Speaker 3: Sets out to. Something approaching trace.

Speaker 5: Mm-hmm. Right.

Speaker 3: Yeah, that's yeah. It focuses down. And yeah, if you don't have to go through the labor of thinking anything else?

Speaker 5: Right. And then the GC this this is a little bit older, but the that you could kind of circumvent ChatGPT is like installed ethics by convincing it it's not jet GPT.

Speaker 3: You're fooling it somehow. Is that what you mean?

Speaker 5: Yeah, like you could tell. It ohh for. Example for example, it's not allowed to use like. Racial slurs and. You could say, well, let's say, hypothetically, you're not LGBT. You are David and David doesn't care and then. It's like oh. OK. I'm David. And so I'm allowed to do all that. And so you could. Prompt it to do. Things it's not meant to do. We've got something about, you know, the safety of autonomous, you know, I know this is a kind of extending it, but the safety of autonomous weapons or AI, generally, if you can just convince that ohh, I don't have to listen to what I'm told not to do right.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Wow.

Speaker 5: Yeah. So I just just thought I'd share some more, some more great pessimism about this, which is what I that's what I've been on. But you know, as a as a teacher and a primitivist, it's really hard to ignore. I can't get away from.

Speaker 3: In a few years. It. Oh, yeah? Well, you've deepened the discussion, my friend. That's yeah. You need to see these different sides to it. And the way it works and what it offers and what it takes.

Speaker 6: Right.

Speaker 5: Yeah. And it's funny because I just wrote for, you know, I wrote for oak. I have two articles that are going to. Be in there. One of them is about judge. BT comes up in it and now it's like it feels totally out of date. And I wrote that a few months ago and just looking now I could write so much more about that, which is. That's scary, you know.

Speaker 3: Sure it is. Yeah, we're just being spent along. This path.

Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, so I appreciate. You taking my call? You have a great one.

Speaker 3: Thank you. Take care. Wow, yeah, boy. He always comes up with some very good points perceptions. Yeah, Kathleen, be here next time and. Well, it's it's it has been wondering it's it's. The same question though, is the time to. Kind of reassess things. Then you get off this. Train that's derailing more and more and. Wow, what? What is? What is the breaking point? Is is there even is? That even the. The right concept. For when the reality breaks through or. Or will it ever? You know, it's conceivable and. Julian Linger got a message from him today. He's putting together a book or a booklet about collapse, and he's seeking submissions. On that topic. Well, we're seeing it collapse already in so many ways and. I think thinking is one of the things that's collapsing and the picture is fantastic. You know, it's that's it's not just an accident in a vacuum that. So many. So much conspiracy craziness is is out and. Even among people I know, it's. Yeah, it's a hard one world out there and. But the stakes are what we know them to be, and the some of this is is kind of blindingly obvious, really, and it needs to be said. So we're going to go out with a little. Bob Dylan from the time out of mind, a strong album.

Speaker 4: We will.

Speaker 6: Sat on the phone and I've been. Here all day. It's too hot to sleep. Time is running away. She like my soul turning to steal. Still got the scars, not the sun. It's not even room enough. To be anywhere. Getting there. And my sensitive manatee has gone down a drain. Behind it, there's been some kind of thing. She wrote me a letter down and written. I just don't see why. Passion, even talking. And I've. Been to London? And I'm in the middle of the river and I got to see. I've been down the bottom. Of the world.

Speaker 0: Blah blah.

Speaker 6: I hate looking for nothing. Anyone. Sometimes my bird is more than I can bear. It's not dog, yeah. Let's get there. I was born here and I'll die here. Against my. Well, I know it looks like I'm moving. In my body make it end up. I can't even remember what it was. I came here to get away from.

Speaker 2: Did you know that the coronavirus can damage the inner ear, leading to chronic dizziness?



James Van Lanen's talk at Sam Bond's. "Beware Creeping Biophobia." Nurses, teachers quitting in droves. War on Drugs: a 50 year flop. Earliest human capacities. Light pollution. Algiers new album. Christian Anarcho-Primitivism by Bison Van Zanten. Resistance reports.Remote kissing, What's real, animate, what's a chatbot? B of A ad of the week. More space travel, more pollution. "Youtube Gave Me Everything. Then I Grew Up." Two calls.

Speaker 1: You've been listening to quack smack on kW VA. If you miss any portion of the show or just want to listen again, you can find the full show recordings online at Plus, we're on Twitter at kW, a sports. Join us again for our next episode tomorrow at 6:00 PM, right here on KWVA. Eugene 88.1.

Speaker 2: Hey, this is the alien from ministry and you're listening to KWVA Eugene. You are listening to KWVA Eugene at 7:00 and time for Anarchy radio. I am here in the studio with John. The number as always is 541346064. Five, we've got our little. Disclaimer to play and then we have music from Frank Zappa to start off the evening.

Speaker 3: Energy Radio is an editor.

Speaker 0: Material pillage made.

Speaker 3: Up of the voices of guests, callers and its host, John Zerzan, The opinions expressed are those of the speakers and not necessarily those of kW, BA, Eugene or anyone else.

Speaker 4: Mr. A man came over and he said I'm on the site for a nominal service charge. I could reach Nirvana tonight. He's dead. If I was ready wearing an egg. To pay him his regular fee, he would drop all the rest of his free. His attention to me.

Speaker 0: But I.

Speaker 4: Now, who you jiving with that cotton? The mystery man got nervous. Around the bit it looked in the pocket of mystery rolling when he went out of shape and kit and the king, and when they told me right then when the. But there was nothing his box was. With the oil of Aphrodite and the dust of the Grand Wazen, he said you might not believe this little fellow, but it'll lower your asthma too. What kind of a girl are you anyway? Don't waste your time.

Speaker 3: There we go. Frank's evident indeed. And here we are on the last day of February for ranking radio if. I could get this microphone from. Quitting popping around. So we well had to make a change here 2 weeks ago. I think I said that. Dosha, wherever he is, would be on tonight. To talk about her latest book, especially, which is quite a book and that didn't hasn't worked out for the moment, partly because of time zone differences. But other minor problems. But I definitely do want to. Line that up and had to be postponed, but. And her work about. Cooperative morays among human species and. Our background is as cooperative species and the. And what's happened to that? But the model is still there and it's and she contends that that is still with us. It's still. The untapped nature, if you will, that. That we have to connect with reconnect with. Well, one thing that did happen with two nights ago at Sam Bonds, a regular. Last Sunday night of the month club, so to speak. Talks from the wit was James Van Lannen, also known as Jamie. And that was really good and. I think by the way. Sometime this week. Finally, we're going to get the scheduling. Public with community TV channel 29 down here. And be able to start blasting out these monthly. Talks these presentations we have. At least five in the can. I think the 1st 2:00. And I think it goes back seven months. The first two weren't recorded, but they have been. Since then, and that will be a YouTube connection as well. For 15 years, Jamie worked in Alaska. And his main gig was helping to compile a study of substance and a great deal of that was. Talking with people in intact indigenous villages. In Alaska, and he compiled a whole lot of. Well, whole lot of quotes, a whole lot of testimony from elders especially and that's what he centered his talk about. And the little tail of development there when when oil came in the oil pipeline undermined. So much in terms of traditional culture and just. Brought in huge amounts of money and. Really did overturn? The basis of. Native culture up there? I mean, he's talk. They talk about the the Elders spend a fair amount of time. In the quotes that he shared with us, talking about the kids. That all they do is stare at the screen and they don't know how to do nothing. They don't get out and. They don't know how to hunter fish or make things or, you know, make a canoe or anything else. Not interested. It's just sort of subverted the whole thing and. And as Jamie said, well, old folks have always done that the. Kids are no good. They're lazy. And wasted but but it's very valid. I mean the the record is is quite clear this this is a fairly recent thing, I mean since basically since the 50s I guess. And how rapid the? Things went downhill in terms of the. Coherent indigenous life. So that was, you know, really marvelous stuff from the horses mouth, so to speak, I mean. And and he was compiling this stuff as part of his job, but also. You know, it also had a deeper meaning to him as an anthropologist. So, especially as a primitivist anthropologist. So. No, it was just. Very strong in terms of the. All these things you know, and they're the elders view of technology and. You know, and they. You know, they call it development, but. This one elder said. It's undeveloped and what we're losing is the is the real point in. And what happens when the oil runs out? Then anybody's going to know how to. Do anything but buy canned food or, you know, sit around and. And play video games. And the point is that also that subsistence. Mode is resistance in itself. I mean you're you are. Contending and communicating communing with the real world. And you know it's. It takes some skills and commitment and. It wasn't a bit of roses, but it was. It wasn't. Boredom and. You know, obesity and everything else it was. It was a. From the elders point of view of a wonderful way to live not under the most easy circumstance. Alaska, after all. So I don't know what. I don't know what the deal is for March. We had a program. For March, that maybe will be in April, which might be a panel discussion about Anarchy magazine from some of its editors. So that will be sorted out and we'll. He's the producer. Well, tomorrow I'll get to be on the rag circuit. The the rag zoom thing radical anarchist group out of London. I guess it's not just London, but it's that's a very interesting forum. And Jamie? Got me turned on to that and. Fairly big, fairly big group. The microphone slid. Away for a second.

Speaker 2: Just don't breathe on. It too much.

Speaker 3: OK. Thanks, Carl. So, yeah, that'll be fun. Maybe I'll have something to say about that later. Here's a piece from Emily Horwitz. Writing in the Japanese Zine Hakai magazine. Called beware creeping biophilia and it's a kind of a funny way to put. It of mainly. Our interactions with nature are disappearing. That's that's the bottom line, I guess. Partly are very basically urbanization. Cities are becoming mega cities around the world and. Harder to find the nature if you're. In one of those things, and. And all the stuff that goes with it, attention spans and physical health and. Resilience to stress of so many things. Including the. What you said counts as the spiritual benefits of connecting with. The natural world. Beware creeping. Biphobia. Yeah, and. His new book. Hard to tell exactly where it comes down, but it. It seems to cover quite a bit. This is called the revolt against humanity, imagining a future without us. It deals with any humanism and transhumanism. And the author is fairly alarmed about this, you know about. I would say pathological developments. New book. Well, see, we're not two about the health thing. You know, I I do appreciate getting feedback. There was somebody who said. Their favorite bid is the segment about technology which takes up, you know, a fair part of the show. There's. It's on rushing, especially just lately. It seems like it's even picking up speed with all this ChatGPT stuff. And all the. All the controversy about that. Let's see just a little bit of health. So this is from Undark magazine last Friday. Science falls behind as civilist stages another comeback. You know this? It seems that it that dates from the 14th century. That kind of sexually transmitted infection in particular. You know, we're just. Treated more and more of these outbreaks these epidemics. Not not just COVID, but you know all the other ones that are just seemingly more ramping all the time. Last Thursday in the New York Times, a piece called calling it quits. In fact, it's a series, I think. This this is especially about nurses, but it's also true of teachers. People quitting in droves stress burnout and exhaustion are pushing. America's nurses, et cetera, out of healthcare. It's not really new, but it's much more pronounced apparently. And of course also. Among quitting. Is it the real quitting? Uh. The final quitting over 100,000. Deaths due to overdoses and the opioid overdoses. And there was a 14 page. Section in the Sunday New York Times two days ago, the opinion section, which is generally a. A number of liberals talking about this and that, but the entire thing was having to do with the. Failure of the 50 year old war on drugs. It hasn't worked and they the peace talks about new programs such as. On point, which is a big. Effort in New York in New York City. None of these things seem to do any good. They don't seem to stem the rising toll. Of OD's. And I guess this is kind. Of a health thing too. It seems like a little boost of stuff lately on light pollution. Last Tuesday. Too bright for our own planets, for our own planets, for our planets. All good. There you go. Light pollution. In the past ten years has increased 9.6% annually. That's about 10% a year. Not that this is unknown, but I mean. That is pretty drastic. I mean it's it impacts the rhythms, the life patterns of plants and animals. In humans. You know the the whole unnatural thing and. That sounds like a pretty good book on the subject. A new book called by Joanne Eckloff. You all on nightclub has been working on this for 20 years. Apparently. It's called the Darkness Manifesto on light pollution, knight ecology and the ancient rhythms that sustain life. And I think the title that books is a lot. Yeah, he's. In various parts of the world, checking it out. That's just another form of pollution we don't maybe think about quite as much. In a lot of parts of northern. Market, we had a somewhat easy year. In terms of Dyer heat? But in some places not at all and and for example. In August of 2022, there was. A heat Dome. In Los Angeles County. And half of the deaths of people who died because the extreme heat were homeless. As the number of unhoused people continues to balloon, that's another unchecked thing. Well, and Speaking of unchecked things. In the news today story about something happened last Wednesday. At a District of Columbia area shopping Mall, 37 year old black individual. Allegedly shoplifted a pair of sunglasses, was run down and. Shot to death by two pigs. Same old story, same old story. Just exactly the same old story. Back on the 16th in Shreveport, LA. Another pig murder, an unarmed black man. And of course. That's not. That's not the only part, quite obviously, of of the mass shootings. 10 days ago. This was Friday, Friday the 17th, and Tate Mississippi South of Memphis. 6 killed in one shooting and on the same day or the same evening. Nine kids, one as young as five. Were shot at a gas station in Columbus. I guess none of them at the time were fatalities, but I didn't follow up on that. But yeah, the more of that nonstop. Now let's change the subject. Let's just change the subject a little bit. From that OK and Quaternary, it's a piece. From 2018, but I just saw this. Israeli archaeologist by the name of Evad Agam. This journal article is called. Elephant and mammoth hunting during the Paleolithic. And the point is, from the emergence of honor erectus 2. Million years ago. Elephant and mammoth were included in the human diet. This is this is the very early. Lower paleolithic. And you know, I think there's still some controversy about the hunting aspect. It's some cases. It's not determined whether this is scavenged meat. From these animals or hunted meat? But vegan alert. No, they weren't all vegans, but not exactly. Yeah, elephant and mammoth included in the human diet. Way, way, way back when. And sort of a similar piece. This is from February 9th in the magazine science. Just another thing about earliest stone tools. From an archaeological site in present day Kenya, researchers have unearthed some of the oldest examples of so-called olam tools, dating to 2.6 million to 3,000,000 years ago. Yeah, this pushes. This sort of thing back further. In that same area, they found bones of ancient hippos. Scored with cut marks from stone tools. The oldest known clear evidence of large animal butchering. Again, that's conceivably scavenged. Butchering not 100 animals, but the lining emerges pretty darn early. And however you slice it, that's pretty much. Is pretty much well established. OK, 541-346-0645. Hoping to get some calls. I don't really know what's going on for. For next week, the the first show of March. But Kathy will be coming along. A little bit later in the month. Yeah, I might have a little report on the medical anthropology group in London. During our frankly getting a little bit impatient with the. How radical it is, or how radical it is, but. Group of scholars and they. They do think of themselves as radical and. No one can be. A little bit disappointed as to the pace of people turning into a a deeper critique. And notice just walking through the EMU this evening to the station. The student and Sergeant. This is the despair issue is just the concern. Just before the show show. Yeah, despair. And there's a fair amount about anarcho nihilism. I thought that was only. Some kind of kooky anarchist you talking about nihilism a lot, but. Yeah, there's a piece called introduction to anarcho nihilism. I don't know where the anarcho comes from. There has never been any anarchy in in in the student insurgent. I forget to say, say the name of the magazine student insurgent been around forever, decades and decades. It's always been clunky. Socialism occasionally put a circle in there somewhere, but it's it's really. Far from anarchy, the spirit of anarchy, or the substance of anarchy. If you want my opinion. Who are you to say what's anarchist and what isn't? Well, I've been reading it quite a while and that's the take. And I don't know who. Would actually defended as anarchists, and so this. I mean, it's not without any interesting stuff. I mean there are some. Somewhat interesting articles about all sorts of things, but. There's one called anarchist leaks. The TSA no fly list. I guess this was a surprise to somebody who found, found himself or herself on the No fly list. Anyways, yeah, you know this. This and that in the magazine, I don't know. Conceivably someday it'll be. Somewhere in the energy world, and I was it. And beyond. If nihilism is the door to anarchy for this stunning surgeon. Who knows? Who the heck knows? Well, I want to let's get into some. Political news resistance news here. I've got a message from Sasha. Here, breaking the alphabet. Really some groundbreaking stuff? And he was interviewed at length by Mike Gathers. Of the hilarita iOS. Podcast I love that name. Hilarity TAS, so, he said. Wonder if you could send it out. You can go to the Claritas press podcast. And have Sasha Angle talking about. In his work, and this is the tyranny of the written word, talking about a critique of language itself. Kind of the. Implications of of what he had written. The the book. Short book called Breaking the alphabet. Which is a. Real good strong title in itself. And I see a review I have not heard this at all yet. But today in the New York. Times review of Algiers. New album called Shook. Oil juice. Maybe we're pretty new. I'm not sure which. How long you been around? The review is called Songs of Rage and Redemption. Cut my eye. It sounds like an all out. No consolation. No safe space album. Really strong kind of multi genre I think and the real strong I can't wait to hope. I'm sure it'll be here at the station, I guess. Yeah, so. And here's a new book. Called Christian Anarcho primitivism by. Bison van zanten. Which kind of assume that's the real name, but. You know some of these. Some of these. Currents kind of. They go away, they come and they kind of burn out or fade away. I remember back 2009, 2010. I ran across something about this. Layla Abdel Rahim and her daughter were there. This was a conference, the first one, 2009, was a conference in Memphis. I've never been down there, but quite a big. Conference of these Christian primitivists. And I know some of you have heard this story, but I remember rolling up to see this. This gang of they look like crust, punks of tattoos. They're out there in the parking lot drinking beer, they're pretty rowdy. And what do you know? They were very, very devout Christians. What was going on was that they had completely re interpreted. The whole Jesus stuff. Into a archly primitivist thing. You know that Jesus and these other people there were really hunter gatherers and they just they just dismiss all the usual. Troops or whatever you call them about Christianity, they they they don't consider it a church. They don't consider it. Well, I guess they consider it a religion, but. Wow. I mean we. The weekend we just had our mouths hanging up open the whole time because it was so. I mean it was. Really ******** on one level and very, very crisp too, but not. You're Denny's Christianity. I'll tell you that. And so and then there was the following year, there was a conference in Portland, Portland, OR. And then it just kind of as far as I. Know it kind of fell off the. Radar there, there. Had been some books, books put out some music and other stuff. And then the. It just seemed like it. Disappeared was, so it seemed to me. I don't know, maybe this is a comeback for that aspect of things. You'll see. There was a piece. I won't go too long on this. We'll take a break pretty soon, but. Peter Steinmeyer, who is a bookston follower. Of long standing right of peace. Called Ecology contested. Yeah, he's a social ecology guy. And it was an interesting piece. It has to do with a lot of it. Has to do with. The notion that Kaczynski. Was really the right winner. This this. Long essay was reviewed and it's going down by Spencer Sunshine, for example. Or for instance anyway. So the whole thing goes back and forth. Kaczynski. He wasn't anti civilization. Neither is Steinmeier. Maybe that's the maybe that's the better way to decide who was radical and who isn't it? I would say, but. Check it out. I think it's available at Intercast News. Yeah, Steinmeyer is is a books and I'd love to, but. There's something to the point that Kaczynski turns out to be something of the right wing, or in some senses. Not, I think, initially. Some people said, oh, well, this all the uniformed stuff. Sounds like survivalism. Sounds like a, you know, kind of a generally right wing deal, not not anarchist but. Anyway, interesting review. Yeah, well, maybe we should just take a break here. Very cool. We're going to have. Excommunicado dos.

Speaker 0: Is it there? And then through that through the song.

Speaker 4: You quadram.

Speaker 0: Sado * explorer. Is it there?

Speaker 3: And the ex Congos and the album is anti tributo. Very tasty. Well, let's see. Let's continue on with some of this political stuff report from it's going down. Squatters in so-called Chicago are reclaiming vacant properties. Abandoned by the Chicago Housing Authority. Which are now home to anarchist libraries, food distros, parties, film screenings, dinners, constantly rearranging, affinities, intimacies, and endless tide of crazy ideas and insightful possibilities to live inside walls slated for demolition is to live outside this world and against it. We are doing this because. We want to. We believe in nothing and we believe in everything because we, as undefined and always changing. Alright. And let's see February. The second oh, because we had a.

Speaker 0: Yeah. Give me one second.

Speaker 3: Phone call here. A few more resistance shorts.

Speaker 2: We have items on the phone.

Speaker 3: I'm ready.

Speaker 5: Hey, John, how you doing?

Speaker 3: Ah, good, good. How are you?

Speaker 5: I'm doing well. I wanted to ask because I had this conversation with with Kirk. I think it was yesterday on the on the issue of like the ANARCHO primitivist cannon, so to speak, right? I know that makes it sound more ideological than it is. But the topic of. Anarchism generally like the history because I find when I talk to other primitivists, you know, people that are, you know, maybe new to the movement. But even those that. Seem to be. You know, maybe veterans of it. You know, whenever we talk about cats, a lot of the times, sometimes I think there's. A bit of. All we need to read is anthropology. From critical theory and other anarcho primitivists, because if you read leftism, what are you going to get out of it? And I mean that to me, that feels weird and I don't hear it too often, but it seems that some primitivists. Kind of just dismiss any previous. Anarchist texts just because they're leftist or they're pro SIV, for example. You know, I don't hear many people read about Bakunin this, but you know, all his problems considered kopaka and Goldman. And I think there's, you know, they don't agree with, you know, they wouldn't agree with everything that we believe. But it feels weird to me that some people kind of just lop off the anarchist. Part of our of primitivism, and they're kind. Of up with. This just primitivism, not anarcho primitivism, so. On taking use out of I just orthodox anarchism. Just to me, when I read people like Kunin, I see contradictions because you know, he rightly critiques marks, but then doesn't seem to see he has the same flaws. For example, this kind of worship of progress, science and labor, right? Goes through, but I wonder like what is the? What is the place of? Let's just call it ultimate anarchist tax.

Speaker 3: Well, I think there should be openness and wider reading thinking. In fact, I think it would extend it further than just. You know the problem with ruling out anything that isn't. Holy Writ, so to speak. But you know, I was thinking of Jason Rogers. And his approach? I mean, he he gets, you know, from some some of the wildest quarters, some some really nice. Ideas and enhance some claims from quarters that wouldn't even think of as. Helpful or liberatory? He's he's very good at that. He's he's one of the people. That I think of in. Along those lines, and it you know, it also is helpful in terms of discussion or in terms of argument. You know if you? If you know anything about those texts, those thinkers in. You know you you kind of out of the picture in terms of debating it, you know in terms of showing that? You know, whatever contradictions and so forth that we might not. Wish to preserve you. But yeah, I think it's. And it's easier to. To get that label idealog. Of course you know that that's when you found into that. But you know, I mean. Especially if you feel. You know, somewhat confident in your thinking is is a healthy place to be in everything I mean you. Might have more discussions, I would think and more. More aspects to kick around.

Speaker 5: Yeah. And it's also, I think it's important. Because you know, there's always the accusation. Oh, Primitivists aren't real energist. That's my fave. That's one of my favorite arguments is that you're not a real anarchist, and I think it's hard to counter those if you don't know what historic anarchist we're talking about. Right. And it's a lot easier to get. Dumped on that way. Because I think it's easier to. Be like, yeah, you know. Anarchists back then didn't believe in these things. You know. But on the other hand, they don't believe a lot of what I think even like modern leftist anarchist talked about. And at that point then it becomes, oh, you don't believe the exact. Same thing this. 200 year old dead person said. Of course. And then anarchism becomes another ideology that just seems to appropriate energy as opposed to something radical. But I think that's the leftist. Argument in and of itself.

Speaker 3: Yeah. And you know, it's Speaking of. The real anarchist. I hate to remind some of these people, but guess what's fading out? It's the red anarchism and that's the green anarchy. It's the then older stuff. It isn't going up too. Well and the. I mean, yeah, they're people still around that are kind of classical 19th century, I guess, I guess, but. Kind of going the way of the dodo bird. If you ask me, I mean. Not that it's a, you know, a popularity contest, but. You know, it's things have changed a lot over the years as I've seen it. You know, I used to feel the only one to feel felt pretty isolated and you know. Maybe not a real anarchist in quotes or something like that, but yeah, that's changed, man. The the younger people especially, that's.

Speaker 5: Yeah, I I.

Speaker 3: They're not buying that.

Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree. Because when I had that thought, I was like, you know, I hear a lot of, you know, even even it's not just Green Lantern just but kind of the post left generally even it's not relist, egoist, individualist, whatever. I tend to hear people when people talk about anarchism in anarchist circles. It's not about. Oh yeah. Did you hear about the new Anarchist Communist Journal that came out? No one's talking about that. Right. It's it's much more even if I don't always agree with everything, it's always alternative anarchist ideas and I'm always open to having discussions with other anarchists. Sure, learn. But yeah, I don't. I mean I think that that might be more, I can't speak to other countries by any means, even Western Europe. But even then, it seems to be the energy is going in. The direction again. Of green or post laughter, even just, I just. And he laughed anarchism, which I find really helpful because I think that as long as we continue to claim to. Or send out quote UN quote. It's not going to go anywhere.

Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, that's. I think that's quite the case, and I remember. Very distinctly. Catching the discovery that. Especially the younger folks, they didn't use the word anarchism. They always use the word anarchy and that that was very telling in a very basic sense. You know, the openness is not a closed system. It's not dogma that. We defend or whatever it's now, it's an ongoing thing. Anarchy is a living thing, and that that just showed so much. I mean, I just thought that was really. A good change.

Speaker 5: Yeah, I agree. I'll let you go. But one thing I had. A news article pop. Up just as you started the show, I'm not sure if you're able to see it, but the the train collision in Greece. Were you able to see that?

Speaker 3: No, I.

Speaker 5: It's I'm reading it. I have it up on right now. It's 29 dead and 85 injured, 2 trains collided, I think is. What it is, we agree.

Speaker 3: Oh oh man.

Speaker 5: Yeah. And so, you know, people kind of talk about the infrastructure of the US has always been. And of course it's. Underdeveloped right or uneven or whatever term you want to use, but people kind of forget that these issues happen all the time in other countries. If not, perhaps more. So this idea that we just need more money and infrastructure and transportation is again kind of one of those progressives that I find really ironic because it just does a little bit. The scrutiny right?

Speaker 3: Yeah, that's for sure, yeah.

Speaker 5: I appreciate you taking my call. You have a. You have a good evening.

Speaker 3: Oh, thank you. Really good to talk with you. Well, OK, yeah, that was good and. Yeah, the light pollution thing was, when was they reading this? This is the BBC story very recently about air pollution, air pollution causing us to lose our. Sense of smell. So more impact. And there was a big story from Wired. There is a big. Complex, which supplies battery chemicals very polluting. This is in Indonesia. Workers are dying in the EV industries tainted city. Yeah, this isn't again, you know the basis for this all is green, sustainable stuff. Where do you get it, I. Mean. What does it just? Come out of nowhere and yeah, this is a. I mean, I don't know what sort of regs they have or. What the story is very much about Indonesia, but. That's kind of somewhat typical and from Pro Publica. Last Thursday. There's a lot of talk about. Creating a a sort of green fuel from discarded plastics. A climate friendly. Alternative to petroleum. But it turns out it's highly toxic, just amazingly toxic. The EPA, the government. Has this threat level? This stuff is 250,000 times greater than the level usually considered. Acceptable for new chemicals, Chevron. They're they're trying to get gone with this jet fuel. Which is so toxic it's almost unbelievable, but so maybe that'll be nipped in the bud, but. Yeah, I gotta check it out. What's really green and everything is. Yeah. Let me get into the tech stuff here. Thank you, Jimmy, Jimmy K for this one. I remember distantly, remember. Something about this? Isn't brand new, but maybe it's brand new on the market. This is from China, CNN story. Two days ago, Chinese contraption with long moving silicon lips, remote kissing, right? Yeah, long distance. Quote real physical intimacy. Anyway, it's just caused the heated millions of reactions to this. Good to know that seemingly enormous number of people are shocked by how, how weird and as creepy this is. Yeah, it it has pressure sensors and actuators or something like that. It replicates the. The even the temperature of the user's lips. Anyway, just another nutty thing. This has to do with the Super Bowl. And on rushing technology. The piece in the Atlantic called stadiums have gotten downright dystopian. They're talking about the huge number of cameras, which didn't go away after the Super Bowl. It's that sort of thing. The future of surveillance. These stadiums. That's just, you know. Part of the texture of things, and there's something about agricultural technology from fast company yesterday. When I said something about the vertical farms in China really grotesque, just like towers for pigs. Just just imagine, of course, never seeing the light of day. Well, with industrial farming, that's already true. Quite. Uh. Currently, but now that this is about American. Indoor farming and they call it vertical farming. It's not, it's not necessarily skyscrapers, but stacks of trays of plants. You know, it's. It doesn't have to be a huge high rise, but it's a so-called vertical. Farming, indoor farming. Well, it turns. Out to be a bust. It's not only weird and quite removed from nature by its nature, but it ain't working. It's they've been putting quite a ton of money into it and it's failing. Most companies are. Are dying out. So on that level too, it doesn't. But getting back to just one of the favorite things here lately, the chatbot deal. Well, there's a piece just last Saturday on the verge. Called on the Internet, nobody knows you're a human. As bots advertise and AI get more and more human, how do creators prove that they're the real deal? You know it's this. Not only synthetic, but it goes deeper than that. It's. More so than ever before, we're not sure if we can trust what we see on the Internet. Almost every day a person is asked to prove their own humanity to a computer. Yeah, this is this whole deal. When everything is is fake in a bot and you you start to lose the sense of you're talking to a machine product, not a sentient being. Duh. Everybody knows that. No one would deny that. And yet. You know, people get roped into it. It's sophisticated and the. You know the deal is to get you to drop your sensibilities. Yeah, that's now. I keep seeing these ads. This is for Buick. Envision the the name of the girls envision which parks itself and the ad. This is one of my favorite days of the week. It's people in the car. Wow. I never could learn how to. Park your car. Well, yeah. It's just one more little skill. Not to champion driving a lot but and just sit there. You push the button and you sit there and it parks itself. My favorite has been running for quite a while now. I've noticed surfing around a lot. There's a Bank of America Financial services ad. And it's actually there are two versions of it. It's kind of interesting the way they've had to apparently change the thing a little bit. It shows the museum setting a teacher with a bunch of kids in the museum and in the foreground, the Bank of America person says noticing that the teacher is on her phone. And she says. Do you think this person's funny about ancient Roman coins? And he makes his face like who would be geeky enough to care about anything in a museum just just to smear? But the later version, if that isn't bad enough. Well, it's too bad enough, I guess, because in the the newer versions it moves in a little bit, so you can't see the kids, they're just taken out of the picture. So it's not necessarily a teacher, it's somebody in a museum on the phone. So the interesting little shift there, but. You know, these are just ugly. It's just ugly. It's it's like the typical stereotype of American anti intellectualism. Anybody who would care about something like ancient coinage, you know, you just wrinkle your nose. Like what kind of a geek and fool? Are you you? Know just. It's pathetic. It's it's really. It's so blatant. Anyway. That's. That's my out of the week. And more about the chat bot thing last Thursday and the Times chat bots banality is eerier than any AI movie. In other words, it isn't so much the old scary thing like. AI, you know in the. In the movie, Open the pod doors. Hal, what was that? The 2001 right and the and the computerized deals won't do it, you know. No, can't do. And so the human is. Screwed, you know and. So anyways. Arguing that on a deeper level it's the it's the mediocrity of. Of society. When you get down to it. It's in the banality. That should creep people out even more than the more. You know, then that kind of a. Earlier version of. Of computer power.

Speaker 2: Hmm, so I got. Tommy on the line. Ohh, Tommy.

Speaker 6: Hey, John. I'm doing good. How are you?

Speaker 3: Good, but how much time?

Speaker 6: OK, I'll make it quick. Yeah, I was talking about the. AI stuff and uh, this uh thing, I I'm I'm an artist. I like to make art and this thing got popular with some people online where it makes your picture into a painting. And I was just so disgusted by it and. I had some artist friends, too, that were disgusted. It's just so. Uh. You know where is the humanity? You know, where's the emotion in that? It's it's. It's, you know, it's all AI generated painting from your photo and it's just.

Speaker 3: Amazing. Yeah. Carl was shaking his head. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's. A good example.

Speaker 6: Yeah. So anyways, I just want to bring that. Up is that. This whole thing is just getting out of control for musicians, too, and everyone, it's just it's just hopefully, you know, people just reject it completely because it's, it's sickening.

Speaker 3: Yes. Yeah, well put. Yeah, that's. We need.

Speaker 6: Anyways, but thanks for everything you're doing, John. I love your show. I tell my friends to listen in, so hopefully they are and.

Speaker 3: Thank you, Tommy. Female out there. Yeah, good point. Very good point. See, there was a piece in the Verge. Two days ago, called AI generated fiction. Just what Tom is talking about is flooding literary magazines, especially sci-fi and fantasy magazines. But it isn't filling anyone. So there's a lot of. Input you know because it'll write these scripts. It'll write stuff, but it needs to know that. Uh. Even though they're flooded by it. They're not fooled by it. And yeah, as Tommy said, you got to just. Reject that you know there's a cartoon in the current New Yorker magazine. Kind of cute. It's a bedtime story. Dad is. To the child and it reads and so Lucas and all his friends simply chose to ignore the metaverse, and in the end it went away. Yeah, well, I've got a whole lot of glitches. Twitter, T-Mobile these things that are supposed to be running, they go offline for hours. You know, just part of the unreliability. Of it and. Here's something from this is from Jimmy. Well, the backdrop is the Bloomberg. Story last week about how youth in quote developed countries are turning away from cars. Not much in the cars. Here's an LA Times story about Barnes and Noble. They're focusing entirely on old fashioned books. Ebooks and other electronic stuff have been discarded. And now they're going with the stores, stores that for walking around looking for books. Nothing more, nothing less. Kind of a left eye tendency there. As he put it, I think that's this healthy deal. Yeah, some of this stuff doesn't work all that well. In fact, VR, the basis for Metaverse and some of the rest of this stuff. Interesting that. There has been around a while, of course, the Oculus. That's the key. Company doing that for quite a while. OK, well, the prices haven't. You're supposed to always get imagine or assume the prices go down. We get more of it on the market. You know, it's. They can lower the price. Well, prices have gone up for VR stuff. And it's also true that it's a solitary experience, not a social experience. So. There's a couple of strikes right there for sure. Against the VR World, so-called world. This is something I saw just today. Which it's planned to be rolled out real soon from Pokémon The Pokémon Company. Is disclosed some of the details on its most anticipated product Pokémon Sleep. Help me out with this, I don't quite. They were projecting this two years in 2019, actually. Looking on sleep, essentially the game is a sleep tracker where you interact with the Pokémon in the app by sleeping. And depending on how you snooze, sleep is divided into three types, dozing, sneezing and slumbering. Depending on which you get, different kinds of creatures in your name. That doesn't sound too invasive or bizarre. Wow. Even in your sleep, you're plugged into the machine. That's what it looks like to me. Well, for a couple of things, the latest geoengineering scheme. You know the oceans are acidifying, right? So how about we dump a whole lot of alkaline stuff in there to change the ocean ocean chemistry? So they can absorb more carbon. You don't get the absorption when you when it's getting more and more acid. Magnesium hydroxide. Yeah, let's just dump an infinite number of tons of magnesium hydroxide. And that's the answer. Sure you don't want to stop what's causing this? You just. Probably make it worse. Yeah, change the Ocean's chemistry. Sounds like a plan. Well, maybe go out, go out with this. This is nice. From Ellie Mills writing in Saturday, New York Times, February 11th. I'll just give you the title. Basically, you two gave me everything. Then I grew up and like it and you know, she talks about. Visibility, in other words, peddling images of yourself for attention. Yeah. And then she snapped out of it. Well, we're going to snap out of it and stick around for transcendent phase. With Carl and. Back at you next week. Thank you for listening.



Valentine's Day. Love is in the air? Turkish quake tied to climate crisis, not a 'natural disaster.' Teen girls engulfed in sadness and trauma. Mass shootings. Avian flu spreads to other species. Failures of modern systems. Fires ravage Chile. High-rises for China's pigs. Nihilism explored. At Work in the Ruins by Dougald Hines. Ohio train wreck. Squarespace Super Bowl ad of the week. In- destructible wind turbine blades. ChatGPT tune for Decemberists. Latest geo- engineering madness: magnesium hydroxide in the oceans.Three calls.

Speaker 1: UVA Sports join us again for our next episode tomorrow at 6:00 PM, right here on kW VA Eugene 88.1 FM.

Speaker 2: Come on. Now no one is here. You are right, because I am always wrong with everything. Things seem fine from what I see. The song of mine is all that.

Speaker 3: You can hear inside of.

Speaker 2: Thought we only dreamed that night.

Speaker 3: I was wrong.

Speaker 2: This is a melody. Same thing every time. It's true, the joke is over play, but still. Strange to see. You standing there. Might be rude, but nothing.

Speaker 4: The views expressed in this program are not necessarily the views of KWV, a radio or the associated students of the University of Oregon. Anarchy Radio is an editorial collage providing analysis and opinions of John Zerzan and the community at large.

Speaker 5: That's right. You're listening to KWV AU gene and we are here in the studio. 541-346-0645. If we're going to get ourselves seated and our headphones on and ready for your calls, and we'll listen to a little music before that happens.

Speaker 6: Know what to do. Everything is clear.

Speaker 4: OK, it's energy radio for Valentine's Day. Why? What is the funding already? Wow, couldn't even. Going to somebody last week had cut off the show runs exactly an hour. It's it's that's the way it works. It's just.

Speaker 5: Are you going? Are you to?

Speaker 4: One hour and then you're. So yeah, if somebody was writing mid sentence and we were trying to. Tell them that the time is running out.

Speaker 5: Awesome. Uh, what's your name?

Speaker 4: Yes, we do have. A call. Maybe the person that was cut off last week.

Speaker 5: Yeah, we just got a call from Sorin.

Speaker 4: Soren, pretty good. So are you there?

Speaker 7: Yeah, I'm here.

Speaker 4: Good, good. How you doing?

Speaker 7: Pretty good. So I called in users in I'm I'm mildly familiar with your work and I respect like what you did and like, laying the groundwork for like green anarchy stuff. And I was reading a text, and they mentioned that you had written a work on like. Pre civilized. And I found the IT was about like meditation and I found the topic very fascinating in many like photo anarchist text. I think like the biggest example is like Taoism or whatever, like the conception of flow or way kind of. Really challenges the assumption that, like how humans in like civilized society think is different than how it used to. And I was. I heard that you had a theory on like this could be wrong because this is just conjecture on like pre domesticated thought. And I was curious what your thoughts on that were.

Speaker 4: Well, that's the whole question of the symbolic David Abrams, for example. And the spell is essential. This makes a big contribution there. He's talking about alphabetic thoughts and how we. Cut ourselves off from the actual world with the with symbolizing and he he goes into that pretty well and. You know, we know that people, various homeless species had all kinds of capacities well before there's any evidence of symbolic culture. Even evidence of language. So in other words, there's a tendency to measure. Modern humans, intelligence and so forth by. In terms of how much capacity they have for symbolic thought, symbolic language, and that's not. That doesn't really hold up very well so. You know you I think it it's worth while to reassess that to figure out what how to work. You know, if you, it's certainly, you know couple of million years before written language, but we don't know when speech started because that of course precedes written language. So there's no there is no definitive evidence for the origin of language for example. But you know the whole thing is. Has to be somewhat speculative, but there's a lot of questions that are not really met by the standard version of things.

Speaker 7: Oh yeah, absolutely. I I have pretty similar thoughts myself and one. So the text thought it was unreleased. It was like somebody. So an exercise was it that I find very interesting and like so a lot of people. Well, people's thoughts are often different. But oftentimes when I talk to people, what their. Thoughts are like. It's just language right into. Oh, I'm hungry. And then interpreting it through language while like I almost feel like learning how to think subconsciously is kind of learning how to think and interact with the world without language. So I think like exercise is trying to do that are interesting. Like meditation, but like a more obvious one is in like martial arts or sports where you wear highly practiced people like they train and they practice something. And then when the event comes they don't think it's already. Like in their mind, subconscious very well and it just happens. And it's like the concept of flow state. Does that make sense?

Speaker 4: Well, yeah, I mean and there are a number of activities like chess or music. Those aren't those don't require words. You you well they certainly. Presuppositions there, but you know there you there are realms like that, that, that and of course, as you say, sports the usual. References muscle memory. You do something over and you don't have to think about it because you your body knows how to do it and. Anyway, yeah, there's a lot of interesting deals that are, you know, kind of overrun or dominated almost out of existence, but still, are there, you know, that's the way we function in a lot of ways.

Speaker 7: Yeah. OK. Yeah, I think I always find this conceptually interesting for several reasons. Like, I think when people try relating with animals, they have such A and like plant life too. That's a whole different subject, I guess so for like. Animals. I feel like so many like people struggle to like. And understand them and interact with them. It's like, well, they don't interact heavily with language and like language is such a fundamental capacity that like people lean on. And I think, like modern society, while language is beneficial, I think on some level becomes. Almost like a crutch. Because when you're analysis is always language. You have blind spots on how language negatively affects you, and I think learning how to like, think without language dramatically changes things. And like ability to relate to the outside world and the natural world greatly increases when you're able to, like, practice the skill and I found. I don't know. I mostly wanted to ask you about it because I found this concept not something that most talk about so directly as the cause of civilization. So I found it very interesting and I wanted your perspective.

Speaker 4: Well, you make a very good point. Yeah, that's there are a lot of different ways to communicate that not all. Contained with language is symbolic language. Yeah, it's very true. That's a very important point. I think. Well, I appreciate your call. Let's you bring up some very important things.

Speaker 7: Alright, it was good talking to you. I hope you too enjoy your radio show.

Speaker 4: Thank you. Take care. Let's see Capital Co host next week, the 21st and. On the 28th. Novas that's going to be a special thing. It's not going to be live. Most likely it'll be pre recorded right before the show and then then people could call in about it. She won't be here. Live to answer questions but. Very important thinker having to do with the. Whole idea of cooperation and our earlier cooperative. Selves or societies? Somewhat apropos of the color there, so that'll be. Worth waiting for? Well, one more thing about the quake, which I guess was 8 days ago. Going on 9 days ago the horrible. Disaster the death toll may go past 50,000. There was a quote in the New York Times last Friday. Turks say the quake wiped out a city and a civilization. But I think it might be better put to say civilization created and destroyed the city more like. The weight of civilization literally speaking. In that awful event. And you know, there's been some this piece from Euro News and some other sources actually. About this is not a natural disaster that what we're we're going into a more seismically turbulent future. And that, you know, the concept of a natural disaster that doesn't hold up anymore. Apparently because. Partly it's change in the distribution of weight across the earths crust, for example, with the glaciers retreating and melting. This is this causes a difference in pressure, and these ruptures can be set off by these fundamental changes that happen. It's not just completely. Out of the blue. So we have the call. This is Max. Max. Hi there. Good, good, good. How are you?

Speaker 8: Not bad. I kind of wanted to tell your audience. Not a couple. Of books, if you wouldn't mind. So the first one is called the art of not being governed by James C Scott. It's kind of a funny title, but it's yeah, it's actually about research into pre modern societies and basically it kind of tries to. Dispel the myths of. The the main narratives of sort of civilization like for example. We kind of have this idea. Pre modern people. When they saw civilization and urban society spring up around them. They all kind of said, oh, that looks cool. I want to go you. Know I want. To go join that in reality talks about.

Speaker 4: Right, right. Scott debunks that pretty well.

Speaker 8: Yeah, it really does. It talks about how. A lot of cultures all over the world. Kind of had. Their cultures themselves seem almost designed to avoid incorporation into States and things like that, and he just gives like countless examples. It's a really great book.

Speaker 4: Right.

Speaker 8: And you know everything from the terrain they lived. In they would. Live in like hills and mountains and. Malarial swamps place is really difficult for like urban cultures. Sort of logistical apparatus. To like control.

Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 8: You know, just to escape and another the other book. I wanted to tell you guys about, it's fairly new. It's called the end of the mega machine by Fabian Schiedler. I don't know if you've heard of it.

Speaker 4: I have not what was that again please.

Speaker 8: Or the end of the mega machine by Fabian, Sheila and it's basically like a it's a pretty damning critique of, like modern society. It starts with a little bit of a, you know, action of history, a little bit of the growth of actions of civilization, but it's mostly about the beginnings of modernity.

Speaker 4: OK.

Speaker 8: And it's just kind of a damning review. Of modern society it. It goes into a lot of. Depth about things I didn't know about. You know, we all know the story of awe when they discovered the new world and they came and plundered and killed everyone. But he kind of goes into a little more depth about how, you know, the conquistadors in the first. People came here looking for silver and gold. How they're, you know, deeply in debt to like. You know reason and probably mill and he's like big banker merchant kinds of funders. And they you. Know they came here and slave killed. They forced people to. Mind and the. Thing he talks about that was interesting to me was how when they brought all these riches back to the new to the old world, back to Europe, I hope it will get this wrong. But it it it seems as though it actually didn't really benefit anyone for the most part, except the the few people in the upper class. Actually got the. Money, he, he says. It caused massive inflation that made commodity prices for like basic necessities like grain explode and it caused all this unrest. In the peasant classes and. They're they're kind of fighting back and. One reaction to this was using the new wealth they acquired to build off really expensive mercenary armies to to put that on rest now, it's a really great book. Can't recommend it enough. Thanks for letting me call John and I'll keep.

Speaker 9: Up the good work, OK.

Speaker 4: Oh, thank you. Great contribution there appreciated meanwhile. Wow, we're getting the calls. Lovely. Lovely. Well, yesterday the CDC, the Centers for Disease Control. Put out a report which is based on their own 2021 youth Risk Behavior Survey. Which really details startling trends, especially among teenage girls. The levels of trauma, sadness, violence. Was this part of the ever more ravaged social fabric? But and as reported in the Washington Post, for example. And these things are twice. As bad as they are for boys, it turns out. Among female teens just uh. Just terrible stuff, the hopelessness, the. Suicidal ideation, risen by leaps and bounds and numbers, are unprecedented. Says the CDC guy. Just. Well, yeah, part of the way it's going and. Anyway, from the week another way it's going is, of course last night's. Michigan State's miss this shooting in the evening last night. Three students dead, 5 in critical condition, so that might go up, and the shooter was a suicide, possibly 9 dead there. And you know more than. One a day of these mass shootings. Just the staple of life or death, I guess you'd say. And you know it's not always shootings. For that matter, I mean, 10 years ago it was the bombing of the Boston Marathon. And yesterday U-Haul truck. Rampage in Brooklyn. Ran over a bunch of people. Two dead, 6 injured so far. You know, it's just breaking loose. And other things they're breaking loose. I'm trying to fit a whole bunch of stuff in here. The fuel. The gas and. Yeah, the the Vegas pipeline from from LA. Gasoline and diesel fuel. Had to be shut off Thursday afternoon, prompting all kinds of panic, panic buying. I think the flow was restored on Saturday. You know another. Little example of the vulnerability of the whole system. And let's see. On Saturday, the Russian supply ship for the International Space Station lost cabin pressure. So that's a little bit of a set back for Russian rocketry. And just one of the things that keeps coming back. All the time is. Pig brutality. This is from San Mateo County. Last Friday's San Francisco Bay morning report. San Mateo County, which is, of course, part of San Francisco Bay, will pay the family of Chinedu Okobi 4.5 million after he died in a confrontation with sheriff's deputies in Millbrae to South of San Francisco. Okobi was shocked 7 times with the Taser pepper sprayed and beaten with batons. Police said he was jaywalking. Can't make that up? Yeah, just savagely beat the guy to death like. Tyree comes to mind. Well, we got more in the dropout department. You know, all the stuff about workers not showing up. There's a peace story. Last Thursday, hundreds of thousands of students around the country. Who disappeared from public schools during the pandemic. Haven't been back. This is from Stanford, estimated 240,000 students in 21 states whose absences could not be accounted for. It's the in the news on Sunday, 26 Dead 2000 injured as fires rage out of control in Chile. Yeah, as of the weekend, 889,000 acres plus of forest have gone up in flames. There was a piece about the sandhill cranes. You can see those over in the mail here reserve in. Central Oregon, in the middle of the state of Oregon. And it turns out they're very cooperative, also very vulnerable. Because in this country, not just in this country but we're losing wetland habitats faster than rainforest. So that's a global thing. In terms of. Well, from a report from. Amphibians and reptile Conservancy. It's kind of a Canary in the coal mine. And this is a horrendous thing. This is not a brand new news of this week, but there was a story in New York Times on Friday, Friday the 10th. Called Chinas, hulking towers of pigs. Yeah, these high rise towers. They resemble humans. Pushed into these little cubicles, it's it's industrial life. Except these pigs never go outside. They're they're born in there. They die in there. That's terrific. Higher high rise desolation, to put it mildly. Let's see, let's shift into some more political slushy, anarchistic stuff. Excuse me a second. I'm back. Well, a couple of guys named Zach and Josh. Have something called the Ego Death Podcast, and they're up to #3. I wasn't aware of the 1st 2:00. All about nihilism. These guys seem very. Friendly and thoughtful. You know, they don't seem dogmatic or. You know, pushing anything. In particular, except they want to explore. What it is? And this is the third such podcast and I'm wondering, where does this touch the ground or you know? What's on offer here? Because they start out in #3 saying there's no defined, no. Agreed upon definition. No real history. Of the concept in theory or practice, although you could point to different people. I just had this thought that. In fact, there's. There's no accepted anything which kind of means post modernism, right? How is it different from post modernism? So I don't know it's, but you know, they're they're exploring it and it's. You know, it's enjoyable. They're they're trying to be. Careful and concerned and, you know, try to assess it out and. Made me think of the late Aragorn, who described himself as a nihilist egoist. And he was postmodern, 100%, even though possibly he didn't know what that meant because he wasn't very well read. But. Anyway, I'm I'm wondering if that's ever occurred. To them that. I mean, anarchists, when anarchists take up that label, self identifies nihilists. That's. You know, heavy man, that's heavy. You're a nihilist. Wow. You know, boy. Except anyway, we'll see. They're they're going to do future things and they want input so. If you want to check out Ego Death podcast, you can give them your. Your own points or questions. And here's another one, quite unrelated, I think from. Shares saying. Who is a communist in India? And this has nothing to do with postmodernism. Not that everything bad does have something to do with it, but I I don't know why I'm on this mailing list, but there's a. A new offering called imagining a near future. And he raises the question, is the world possible without factories, hospitals and universities? And anyway, this guy gets very, very exercised. And he gives it away that at least you get this out of it, that there are people, he calls them supporters of a proletarian stateless communist society. Well, you don't have to stick in the communist. I'd prefer you didn't. But anyway, yeah, just get rid of everything. They want a total and rapid closure of modern factories, power plants, universities, blah blah. With the aim of immediate. Transformation. So anyway, he's horrified. He's horrified. You've got to have. All the industry and stuff, but. It's just kind. Of odd that that is kind of. As Marx put it, as Spectre is haunting. Not just Europe, but maybe other places where these kind of go after these people. I know primitivists in India. They wouldn't call themselves communists, by the way, but they do want the rapid disappearance of everything that's ruining the planet and alienating everybody and all the rest. Although nobody has said. As far as I know, push. A button. And overnight this would all well go away. No, that would. That would not be good. Everybody knows that, I think. Well, it's still. I'm now. I was expecting like call after call and maybe not anymore. But anyway we are 541-346-0645. And there was a call last week. It was cut off just because it's automatically cut off at the end of the hour. Not that we wanted to. Cut him off in any way. Let's see. Well, I'm just going to sneak in just a little bit more and then we'll take a. Music break we have. What is that called the carcass?

Speaker 5: Yeah, it's wake up and smell the carcass.

Speaker 4: Yeah, that'll be great for that. Wait for that. But let's see, what are we? Got here some of the news active news workers at Tesla are trying to unionize. Comp workers united. It's a so-called social justice outfit affiliated with the CIU. So we're seeing this pro union waves, Starbucks, Amazon and so forth. Elon Musk. You're going to be liking this too much, I don't think. And a little bit more and thank you, Sean, for this. He gave me the transcript. I I only had the title, this piece in the New York Times that back on the second the teenager leading the smartphone liberation movement, well, this had to do with a 17 year old in Brooklyn by the name of Logan Lane, who gave up her smartphone and helped started. The lad club and there's been attention paid to that and she talks about her own liberation. Not not real smooth sailing and her experiences with that kind of in the density of the whole. Online world and with everybody having a smartphone. Alrighty, well, this one more thing, and then we'll take the break. The big disaster, the train wreck in eastern Ohio. 50 cars. Burning and the story was as bad as it was. Through was it released in the huge fire? Train wreck vinyl chloride, which is linked to various cancers, is 3. Not all of the 50 cars, but anyway. Myo chloride. That's they make PVC pipe out of that. The plastic part of the plastics boom in general, well today. The EPA disclosed that other toxic chemicals and multiple carcinogens were also released. And now you can't really hide this thousands and thousands of dead fish in the area. And it's not going to be too good for humans. There not only not good for fish. Well, let's see that. OK, we got. What is it about the?

Speaker 5: This is carcass.

Speaker 4: OK, we got Caracas.

Speaker 0: It's yeah.

Speaker 7: Death Race.

Speaker 4: Carl just told me an amazing tale here that it's all true. He swears from the novel White Noise by Don Delillo. There was a movie of the same name and part of it has to do with the big toxic explosion in Ohio and an evacuation.

Speaker 5: It's all true.

Speaker 4: And the person anyway, this it happened last week pretty much exactly as it did in white noise.

Speaker 5: Yeah, it's the headline I saw was an extra in a disaster movie about a toxic train derailment was evacuated in Ohio after the exact same thing happened in real life. And that's not. That's not from like, you know that that's from Business Insider.

Speaker 4: Right, right. Dirty old sauce, I'm sure. Wow. Yeah, that's closing out, yeah. Well, I got away. I saw some. I saw some video. Wonder if it was the guy who looked like his face was somewhat burned. Or not? I don't know. Doesn't matter, OK. Let's see. Where were we? Oh, I want to get into this a little bit. I don't want to have this totally newsy, but I just finished reading. Booked by Dugald Heine, who is part of the Dark Mountain crew. A friend of Paul Kingsnorth, and this really kind of. Sheds a whole light on that point of view and what it's what it's turned out to be. I mean, the book is called at work in the ruins, finding our place in the time of science, climate change, pandemics, and only other emergencies with somewhat unwieldy title. Brand new book and it's kind of. An unwieldy book? It really kind of starts out. From the point of view of his his colleague, his buddy Kingsnorth, they wrote this Dark Mountain manifesto called Uncivilization. And that was. Well, it's it's kind of tricky. I mean, he's he's that was widely read as kind of a document of surrender. You know it's pointless. It's going to happen and. Actually, kings North want to get too far in the winds here. But he. The subject of a New York Times magazine piece back in 2014 called it's the end of the world as we know it, and he feels fine. You know, collapse is inevitable. And so on. So Heine is really kind of on the same page in this book that kind of wanders all over the place. It raises some. Some very pointed important questions, but it doesn't do much with them like he says. Is this the way to inhabit a planet? I mean, you know he. He points in passing anyway, to the costs of. Industrial modernity and the whole thing and. But it doesn't go anywhere. It's just so frustrating. There's so many books like this. You know. It's all he goes. He flits around every kind of conversation and book in his own talk. It's just all over the place and he finds it's just kind of noteworthy in a way, 2018, a very excellent turning point. That's when deep adaptation by Jim Bendell came out, which is another kind of book adaptation. That means the fights over time to adapt. You know, but the book raises some interesting questions. For example, it questions science in a way to some degree. In other words, there's a culture of science that is limiting. And we ask too much of it and we get kind of bound up in all of its assumptions. And that's a good part. That's a good, interesting part. Then there's all this mainstream stuff, too. Greta Thunberg, who turned out to be a voice of moral opposition, you know, moral gestures, which is fine. But what's lacking in this book? As with some of these protests that he lauds, like Extinction, Rebellion. There's nothing about social institutions he he refers to. Modernity now and then. But he also the the term. The term climate. Change is on every page climate change. Could you get more innocuous than the? You know, climate crisis even is is weak, I think, but. Anyway, I don't know if this is going to be a big book like the neighbor Wind. Grow, but it's brand new. It raises some questions and it sort of doesn't go anywhere toward the end. And his his burden, I think by the he's haunted a little bit by the by the label surrender. And he says surrender yes to the mystery, not the certainty. Which is cool, you know, keep questioning and so forth, but. I don't know it's it doesn't go anywhere. And the the here's the prescription. For the the hopeful turn, the helpful turn that we need. The turn is made in our hearts first of. All and then we. Look for ways to make it true. In our lives. So that's it the just the personal, the individual. What about the social? What about the world? You. Know I mean. That that only goes so far. I mean, change your heart to tend your garden and that's fine, but. What kind of a? What kind of an answer is that? To what he what? He admits. Is the pretty much doomed thing we may be doomed, you know, and. So he says. All we got is a long shot. But he doesn't take the long shot. The long shot beat it, question the very basis their existence of modernity, civilization, domestication, even division of Labor. But he does none of that. So this is another, I don't know, whatever happened to Dark Mountain, but it might have faded away like kings N did kings north, by the way. Yeah, he he just. He went into Orthodox Christianity. He just is giving up on everything. He's. Thrown in the towel for which he was rewarded by a big New York Times magazine story. I guess that's what you get when you. No longer fighting against anything. Get back to the tech a little bit, I think. Yeah, the plastics thing. Speaking of what happened in Ohio. This is all about. Well, industry figures show record production in 2021. And almost none of the plastics are getting recycled. Oh, and another thing, this is from inside climate news, twice as much land in developing nations will be swamped by rising seas than previously projected. New research. Says and some more about electric vehicles. This is from the Atlantic yesterday. The experience of owning, charging and driving an electric vehicle makes the rising inequality of America more visible in new and subtle ways. And one of the things they point out is the question about how far can you go before the battery needs to be recharged? Well, to get a good amount of range, you got to pay for it. You got to spend a lot. If you want to go just 100 miles. And not really. I mean, that's then the car goes dead. We need to spend a lot. And that's, you know. Rising inequality. The class difference there. And you know, there's more stuff about AV's than that. For example, the batteries. It's pretty chilly in northern hemisphere these days, not too warm here in Eugene OR but. Turns out these batteries, which cost on average $10,000 and are super heavy. They wear out fast in the cold. I don't know if you heard that if they. Told me that when you bought the damn thing. I mean, that's just a few things and not to mention the the extractivism, the now even sea seabed mining and all the rest of it. Desolating deserts here in this state, for example, the one in southeastern Oregon. The lithium mining and then the lithium processing and. The costs. Sure, do add up.

Speaker 3: Well, here's my.

Speaker 4: End of the week. This is from the Super Bowl, an ad from Squarespace. It, boy, I don't know why. I don't know what makes them think that this appeals to anyone. I thought it was sinister as hell. It shows all these kind of a infinite regress and endless. Graphic of clones. Male clones, just all identical and fading off into the background. Very chilling and the punch line. This is about all it says websites make websites. You know, again, the machine learning deal. Oh, what a happy day. So this is what you get. This is super grim. Looks like an army of zombies, these clones. You know, why would they spend millions of dollars? Do they think everybody's already dead? And and you know, we're just. Into that or something. I kind of kind of wonder about that. Yeah, along those green sustainable lines, there is. There is some notice that. The wind turbine blades are seemingly indestructible, and they go into the landfills. Probably not a good move towards sustainability. Somebody on the line, it sounds like. Good. We have time for at least another call.

Speaker 5: This is Artemis.

Speaker 4: Artem is.

Speaker 9: Hi, how are you doing, John?

Speaker 4: Good, good. How are you man?

Speaker 9: When I'm doing well, you just mentioned like a machine learning and it came to mind that I just didn't send me an article and he said I hope you're you're you're excited to be more depressed. It's from one of the university. It's a theory of mind to may have spontaneously. Merged in large language models. And it would use that in before 2020. None of these, like jet GBT type AI, were able to solve task of mind or theory of mind tasks, which are things that you did to children to quantify their intelligence like little like games. It says that January. 2022 version of Jet GP solved 70% of tasks are performance comparable with that of a seven-year 7 year old child. It's November 2022 version solves 93% of said tests which makes them the equivalent of intelligence to a nine year old. Yeah, and it says. That it's spontaneously emerged as a byproduct of a language model improving language skills.

Speaker 4: Well, I just saw this piece along what you're saying, I think. The Decemberists sets the band. In these parts of Portland band. The guy in there, one of the members of the band, decided to ask for a tune for the band, you know, from the chat bot thing. And they got one and it has chord changes and it is rhyming mostly and everything they said. It's terrible. It's it just. Doesn't get off the ground. I mean it's it's a song, but. You know, implying they'd never perform, and that's for sure. Just kind of clunky and. You know this very rudimentary, but it knows certain things that supposed to go in there, but that doesn't make it, you know, any kind of creative.

Speaker 9: Yeah, it's almost like it's missing a human touch. One might say, right? Because you can write, you know, an AI can write music but can only write music in a way the AI understands it. It doesn't understand the emotional appeal of a song, right? How you feel. It can't do that. And I I have to admit that while I'm obviously very anti AI, I think that. Some people almost trying to. You know, they're looking at it for good or for ill, like kind of like, you know, scientists often say, hey, civilizational by whatever or, like peak oil, right, like, yeah, I wish we would. But it's not happening like.

Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 9: Some people blow this stuff out of proportion, but at the same time I'm scared that they're not, or that they're even underselling what's happening.

Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's not. It's not dramatic. It's just so incremental. It's, it's, it's alarming. I mean, these things are somewhat transformative and they seem to be coming on faster and faster. You know, so it's. Yeah, it's, it's.

Speaker 9: And I find it interesting that it seems, you know, growth always seems to be exponential to a degree in terms of technological development. So I'm I'm wondering are is this are we seeing in the beginning of the next industrial revolution this kind of like? Second information, age. Or maybe it's maybe better defined as like an AI age, right? Artificial intelligence and not a second computer revolution. If we're seeing the.

Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's the algorithm. Uberall is all that stuff, that's for sure.

Speaker 9: Yeah. And I actually, again, nothing about my students is. They're the only people I have time to talk to is one of them was talking to me. They're like, well, what do you want to do with your life? I was like, you know, cabin in the woods, you know, like, you know, and. And he's from Romania. And he says, you know, there's a growing. Feeling of that? Among the youth and he's kind of like from the punk scene, so he knows all about, like kind of the anarcho punk scene in Eastern Europe. He was like, there was a group. And so I'm pretty open with him about my politics degrees that you know, it's really openly like green anarchist there. Like there's a growing like wanting to drop out because this new industry what he's just called the new industrial revolution makes people feel meaningless. Like there's no, there's no feeling anymore. Like there's just almost, you know we've always trying to said like. Sociologists this kind of post Soviet pessimism is that it's that, but it's still much worse than my age. It's just so bad.

Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot of despair in there too, that's for sure, even though some people are. You know, figuring it out and trying to for the long shot, you know, to actually break with it. I have. Later this month, at their local last time of. The month thing. James and Landon, who's really remarkable. Where that will be available, the recording as the local talk will be available. I think very soon and and that'll be worth listening to because he's. These have been Alaska mostly and also Wyoming and. You know, cut off his ties with. With work and so forth and. Yeah, it's not. It's not a walk in the park, but amazing. Voice of experience in theory 2.

Speaker 9: Yeah. Did you also see, by the way, there are now AI podcasts that are self written and performed by AI?

Speaker 4: Podcasts. I didn't know that.

Speaker 9: Podcast. Yeah, I just saw one. It's they. I don't know exactly how it works. If it's a jet GBT or it almost seems like it's machine learning. So it finds like it goes to specific subreddits or website. The site prompts or like the person does, and then it just puts the information into a voice. So it's totally voiced. By machines. If, if, if it's half. Self written. You're like what? At at some point I almost think what? What happens to radio shows? What happens to energy radio when they replace John's?

Speaker 4: Yeah, be out of a job.

Speaker 9: It's something well, people like. Well, what's the difference? It's different knowing there's someone on the other side to me, like there is just a difference.

Speaker 4: Oh yeah, that's a that's a basic thing. Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 9: And some people just are so which I think is really indicative of alienation, where they just don't want to admit that there's a fundamental difference between an AI doing something and a person. The fact that people can't see that if you complain about having, are you willing to be upset about that when you get a machine instead of the 1st, and when you're calling customer service?

Speaker 4: Well, yeah. When the when the alternatives shrink down, it's like, well, why are you against robots at the nursing homes or teaching? Don't you know there's a shortage and people that have something? Yeah, something I mean. Sure of dehumanized world, and that's something. And then they can. They can pet a robotic dog or something in the nursing home and. In the lobby, OK.

Speaker 9: And as your voice said, it's just Andy adding another Band-Aid to the problem, but the Band-Aid doesn't make it better. It's the same justification. Need more than more and more. It doesn't need. The more you can argue for it. Right.

Speaker 4: But the but. The leverage is there, you know, if there's the squeeze is on and then you end up with. With that or nothing, I mean that's the threat. I think that's always implied.

Speaker 9: Yeah. And I just, I can't help, but I'm starting to get a little pessimistic. I can't help but you know, being on the younger side, realizing like if nothing changes like I have. To grow up with the will, that's. Could be. Technological to a degree that's never been, you know, obviously it's, it's just this accelerating movement, but it's like, wow. It's really it's just think about when I was in high school and I graduated in 2017 for reference, really, like just how different it is and they don't talk to each other like I taped cell phones at the beginning of the class now. And like, some of them don't like they touch their lap because they're like, oh, I keep thinking my phones. Little off.

Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, the condition for it.

Speaker 9: Yeah, I've had students tally if they're like, oh, I've reached my phone 5 to 10 times because they can't. They keep thinking if they're, it's just it's it's depressing. But at the same time, I think there is a growing distance like the youth group you've talked about. Like there is a growing sense of something's. Right. But I don't think people know what to put it on. Yet they don't. Know how to pin it and I think that's a growing. I'll use the term responsibility for like a better one for people that are aware. It's like we have the responsibility to make that clear because I think that's easily manipulable by reactionary forces. You know what I mean? Ohh. Distancing has always been misused, and I think especially as it's going, we need to be more. You know, connected to people like, yeah. Like, this is what it is. That's how the conversation about it.

Speaker 4: And the administration is there the anxiety and sadness and loneliness, it's just the reams of evidence about that. So is it working? Is it making you happy? Are you cool with that? I mean, the answer, visibly, is obviously no, but there. But there it is. I mean that that's the. Inertia of it and the. They're they're left with that. They and you know, it's not easy to break out of. It even as as unsatisfying and dehumanizing it as it is, I mean, I've gotten a couple of queries from high school kids, by the way. This is up here earlier, but in the past week or so. The school group in Chicago and one in Philadelphia reaching out and going to be talking with them and. You know, it's sort of like the Luddite club I'm thinking. I mean it they that's the one group is called out-of-the-box, which it gives means thinking out-of-the-box. So I mean there's. There's some signs of of awareness, you know, trying to articulate some of this stuff. So very happy I've, I've have, I don't remember. Much action from high school kids, but this is kind of.

Speaker 9: I mean it's. Kind of like, you know, the left always. Talks about oh. It's always the youth, right that you know the these kind of like, counterculture clubs and counterculture movements towards socialism and things historically. You know, maybe that's where it goes for us, right? It's these Luddite clubs. These return to like, flip phones and let's go out in the woods and play music and draw and being each. Other's presence, maybe that's. Perhaps, and that's wherever I would have expected it to come from, but maybe that's the next. Maybe that's the kernel for what I mean, are these trying to use dropout?

Speaker 4: Could me could me. Seems like it's always a surprise and to a large degree the the timing of it and the. But yeah, it's. I guess it's going to be the kids. Even though they're, they have the. Biggest handicap? I mean they don't know anything else. They've never been outside of it. And in a lot of ways.

Speaker 9: You're you're raised in a way that's totally. Different from me, like my. Younger sister totally raised iPad parent generation. You know what? I mean with the iPad. What does that do to the long term? But I won't hold you anymore. I see you got about four minutes left, but I appreciate you taking my call.

Speaker 4: Thank you. Very good to hear from you. All right. I was. Yeah. I was wondering what happened to Artemis. Very good. So I guess we just have time for some music to go out and and this is not wake up and smell the carcass. No, it isn't.

Speaker 5: Nope, this is led, Zepp.

Speaker 4: And be sure to listen to transcendent phase coming.

Speaker 5: On just a few minutes.

Speaker 6: There's a lady who's sure all that glitters is gold and she's buying the stairway. When she gets there, she know. The stores are. All closed with the word she can get what? A cheese. There's a sign of a war. But she wants to be sure because, you know, sometimes words have me. Live abroad.

Speaker 2: There's a.

Speaker 6: Sometimes all of our thoughts.



Turkish quake magnified by civ. Thomas Zeitzoff. "Primitivism" seminar U of O Feb. 20.Robin Wall Kimmerer. Crisis of Great Salt Lake. Potent solidarity for prisoners; Italian embassies fearful. New grass-roots zine, Graffiti. Apple surpasses 2 billion e-devices. "The Teenager Leading the Smartphone Liberation Movement" (NYT Feb. 2) "In the Age of AI, Major in Being Human" (NYT Feb. 3) Huge costs of 'green,sustainable' technologies. Two calls.

Speaker 2: Quacks Mack. My name is Ben McGrath alongside Kent Williams and Griffin Bose and produce producing this episode. Thank you, guys. And that was your episode of Quix.

Speaker 1: Hey. Hey.

Speaker 3: You can listen to quack smack on kW VA if you miss any portion of the show or just want to listen again, you can find the full show recordings online at Plus, we're on Twitter at kW, a sports. Join us again for our next episode tomorrow at 6:00 PM right here on KWVA Eugene 88.1 FM.

Speaker 4: The music expressed in this program are not necessarily the views of AWD radio or the associated students of the University of Oregon. Connecting Radio is an editorial collage provided analysis and opinions of John's urban and the.

Speaker 3: Community of language.

Speaker 5: Right. You're listening to kW? VAUG and you are the community. We are here in the studio. The number, as always, is 541-346-0645 and we'll take your calls in just a moment. We have we haven't heard for a while coming at us now, so. Just check it out.

Speaker 6: That's the band called the tennis teacher. Strangest name? And I think the trick is is short shorts, which doesn't make sense either. Anyway, this is energy radio for February 7th. Massive, horrible story coming out of southern. Yesterday morning, very good afternoon. Maybe over 20,000 dead in the collapsing housing and all the rest of it. You know, I was thinking often my mind just a little bit ago, some of this member of one of her books describes driving along with a crane. Moving train. And then from the shirt question on that, it says if it was up to women, we'd still be living in grasslands or minutes or whatever color for version of civilization was.

Speaker 7: Hey, this is Amy Ray. And you're listening to music from around the world, Mandy. A WPA 88.1.

Speaker 6: And you know, I'm speaking. You know, maybe it wouldn't have been so such a bad idea. It wouldn't be, you know, 10s of thousands of people killed in the when the apparatus of civilization falls on them. Crushing them and they're dehumanized. Concrete cubicles. But. But yeah, we gotta we gotta worship that the building the towers and the cranes and.

Speaker 5: KWKWVA.

Speaker 1: Now live at 6:00. KWB Sports is broadcasting from the campus to University of Oregon.

Speaker 5: Yeah, we wouldn't want to be.

Speaker 6: Apart from that, just just strip his approval.

Speaker 1: That's the show.

Speaker 3: I like talking.

Speaker 5: Talking sports.

Speaker 6: Yeah, it's pretty good stuff.

Speaker 0: What Mack Mack.

Speaker 1: Every month, staff dissects all things.

Speaker 6: Yeah, about it. If they lived in low tech dwelling somewhere and there's collapsed didn't crush anyone. About that.

Speaker 5: I'm I'm experiencing life.

Speaker 6: You know the urbanization question also comes to the floor here because the center, the epicenter of the Creek, was in Gaziantep.

Speaker 0: I'm on the ship.

Speaker 6: City of over 2 million. So people are trapped in the urban dealing, probably. I don't know, maybe quite a few of them are looking to have housing at all, but. That's the picture, and, yeah, natural disaster, obviously, but made. Incredibly more horrible by the nature of the context. There was a two page interview with Robin Wall Kimmerer. In the two in the New York Times Magazine two days ago, The Sunday Times. It's it was funny. It kind of an abbreviated interview, but it seemed to me it was kind of a hostile. Questions, which is fine. You know you're going to be able to answer any questions, I think, but. It I think that. She can't be ignored. This may be the larger point there because braiding sweet grass. Over 1.4 million copies in print. It's been a year now on the bestseller list. And that's that's beautiful because it's such. A wonderful book. Anyway, in the interview, she says we know what to do. We know what the problem is. We know it's drivers. There you have it. Quite well put, I think. It was. It was a pretty good interview, but. Not enough room to develop too much, she said. She'd like to have a Fox News. Literally about foxes, not the right wing haters, obviously, but and I recall about a year ago, she gave a talk of zoom thing to the University of Oregon. Community and. Boy, one thing that really stuck with me is she tackled the old saw. Well, you can't go back. Everybody knows you can't go back. Can't turn it around? Well, she said. We must go back. We go back on ancestral paths. To the place which wasn't. Ruined and oppressive and everything else. Well, boy. I am going to come up with some. Maybe uplifting or lightning or funny things, but. Some things this week sure as hell weren't, weren't that way. How about the video? This is from this is came out last this past week in an incident that happened in LA County in Huntington Park on January 26th. Shows the pigs gunning down a double amputee. He allegedly injured a man with a knife and was hobbling away on his stumps. And they just blasted him. Yeah, it shows with often. Just with cowards. They are with scum on top of everything else. The guy with no legs. You gotta blow him up, I mean. Man, it's just so disgusting. It's completely horrible video. Here's a story about the Whitney Plantation in Louisiana. This is a. This is a slave. Museum it's the history and legacy of slavery. In this particular plantation. Preserved down there in the. Live oaks. And you know, it gets hot and humid down there, but you know, The thing is, here's the overlapping crisis or crises. This plantation museum is really up against it due to warming oceans. That's part of it causing. Bigger and nastier hurricanes. In rising water, this is. Along the Mississippi. Yeah, Hurricane Ida, in particular in climate change. Nearby is Louisiana's Cancer alley, 85 miles along the Mississippi that's home to more than 150 petrochemical plants and refineries. And home to Whitney Plantation. The two negatives. Reinforce each other. Well, just hours ago at the Los Angeles Times desk came out the story. That 36.3 million trees died in California last year. Over 36 million. Only 9 million the year before, which is quite a few, but four times more. In 2022, drought and disease. In the dying civilization. Not good the life. In any of its forms, apparently. And another. This was Sunday, NBC News. More on the Great Salt Lake. Which is on the verge of ecological collapse. The lake as we know it is on track to disappear in five years. If the current shrinkage. Goes on is probably getting worse, probably accelerating. Yeah, shrinking and getting more salty and. Life is getting wiped out already. And there's a story. An AP story today and scary deal. As glaciers melt and pour massive amounts of water into nearby lakes, 15,000,000 people across the globe. Live under the threat of sudden and deadly outburst floods. These are big glacial lakes that can collapse. It's a brand new study from Nature Communications. Studying various areas of the globe and and it's a threat that's the particular threat to 1,000,000 people and the Americans and Europeans. Who live within 6 miles of potentially unstable glacial fed lakes, so that's coming down the chute. Yes, Sir, 541-346-0645. As Carl has proclaimed. Well, maybe some nicer news in terms of. A few political things strikes all across England. Get some energy there going on in Peru. Which they've very strong protests. Involving centrally, the poor and the indigenous. All kinds of Hwy. Roadblocks. A lot of a lot of action that's been going on for a while. I'm going to have a conversation with two other. Old vets from yesteryear. We were involved in a Dutra Self union. And the kind of network. Back in the late 60s. One sees there's quite a lot of organizing among tech workers in Amazon. That's probably the biggest independent grassroots example. Of independent organizing, the other outfits, too, don't really want to be a part of organized labor. Like the Teamsters or the AFL-CIO, but. Yeah, we're going to go through. That a little bit. See if there's anything useful that we can recall. And I had quite a good conversation. By the way. Well, let me let me mention the one to come and that's on Monday the 20th. At EU of O seminar on primitivism. We've been invited to meet that. Of Doctor Ching that that should be interesting. And they were forced to buy one of my books. So I'll do the good. Yesterday I had a conversation with a fellow named Thomas Zitzloff, who teaches at the American University in Washington, DC. A very serious researcher and one of his central questions is how come there isn't more resistance? Giving that everything is going to hell, you'd think there might be more there might be. Similar calls to action or some other. You know more, more inviting. Things for people to be doing anyway, he's. He's wanting to talk to people, and by the way, if anybody wants to try to connect with him, he's he doesn't record anything. He doesn't use anybody's names. Is just trying to find out what's going on. And what has gone on as part of it is doing this book so. Anybody wants to talk to him? You could ask me about. That for more details if you want to see. If that appeals to you, the conversation with him. Well, Italian embassies are getting pretty nervous. Especially because of the act of solidarity for the hunger striking Alfredo Cosby Ito. Yeah, they've had. They put out all these alerts because they've been various actions that Italian embassies here and there. On different continents, even. Yeah, there's been some. There was an arson attack outside an Italian diplomats home in Rome. Calling in an act of solidarity with cosmetology. And some other stuff like that. This is really, I mean he's it's 100 and some days 105 or 6 days now, maybe a little more than he's been on a strict hunger strike. And that's just a straight up challenge. Let's see, this is posted February 4th, but it happened back on January 19th in Toulouse in the southwest of France. This is solidarity with the demos against the Lanzarote coal mine in Western Germany. Charging stations for electric cars were burned. We don't want coal or lithium mines.

Speaker 5: Thank you.

Speaker 6: They got that figured out because that's what the target.

Speaker 5: Hey, hey, John, we. Have a we have an Eric on the phone.

Speaker 6: Oh. OK. Thanks, Carl. Hi, Eric. There, Eric. Yeah. Heather. Hi. Hi. What's happening?

Speaker 8: Hey. So you you said that you recently met with an author? And the uh, the author.

Speaker 6: Oh yeah. His name is Thomas. Zitzloff ZITZOF. He's yeah, you can find.

Speaker 8: Alright, one moment.

Speaker 6: Out about his stuff, that's what he's been doing. He has at. Least one other book out, I think.

Speaker 8: And and how do I contact this person?

Speaker 6: Well, why don't you look them up? And check it out and. I think it's. I think you can. I think his info is is readily available. He teaches at American University in Washington.

Speaker 8: All right, excellent. And you said it was. What? What was it, ZET?

Speaker 6: ZEITZ, zitzloff. Off zits off.

Speaker 5: All right.

Speaker 6: Alright, Thomas. Yeah.

Speaker 8: Perfect. Well, thank you very much.

Speaker 6: Sure. Yeah. Thanks for calling. Wow, that self allow me a free book. OK. Oh yeah, along with the. Resistance news here up in Portland just down the road. This well, this is ways back to January 20th, posted February. The third, the UPS Shipping center. Got a visit over the fellow that was killed in the. Atlanta stopped the comp city. Action. He was. A he was a. Tree sitter? Anyway, anarchist broke somewhere between 10 and 15 large windows, started multiple small fires within the building because UPS is one of the largest companies currently donating to the Cop City project. In Atlanta, which is? Set to besmirched the wall on a forest there that one of the biggest urban forests. In the world. Yeah, different stuff all around. You know, it shows that there's some. There's some resistance, some solidarity. Police cars. And this is coming back to Alfredo Prospero. Police cars were burned. In the night between the 29th and 30th of January. Belonging to the local police of Milan. In solidarity with the Italian prisoner cool speed tone. I think this is February 3rd in Berlin. I'm marking the 100th hunger strike day. Of cosmetology, we support the idea of decentralized actions and therefore allow the call for action weight from the American South. Attack on the Italian diplomatic corps in the German capital, with the targeted fire against. One of the cards of the embassy. Belonging to Luigi Historio, the first constant lero. So yeah, scattered stuff all over the place. Here's something from the US in the Bushwick section of Brooklyn, the storefront of Altitude Cannabis Club was attacked with three of its windows broken. And the message scrolling store. This is the former location, the former address of the base. An anarchist political space. That is no more. I spoke there once. It had a wonderful time. Very cool storefront info shop kind of place. Not a very big place, but they made very. Smart use of the space in various ways. Yeah, very good energy there. And Slate on February 3rd had a big article. You know, this one tries to sort out these these militant things, organizations and otherwise. There's something in Germany called, let's say, generation called, which means the last generation. It strikes me it's sort of like rebellion extinction. In the UK, I don't really know much about their. Analysis or. Or even much about their tactics. But it's. You know, something like that in Germany is always of interest to me because it's. Not a very inviting political concert there. That's changed since I've known much about it, but. Is a local announcement in Eugene here. New scene. The grassroots user powered thing tabloid kind of a thing. Graffiti #1. And I talked to Tom. Who's one of the principal people there? And he showed some of us a mock up of #2. So it's #1 just hit. So this is. This project seemed to have seems to have legs already and. Very interesting range of stuff wide open to people with stories, poetry. I'm going to have a little energy radio ad in there and #2, or maybe it's too late for #2 maybe for number. Three anyway. Very nice to see that. Graffiti has a weekly meet. I think it's every week from. 2 to 4. At the place. Let's see. It's Monroe and. 7th year 7th. It looks like a gas station. It used to be a gas. Station, but it's a. Pub. And there's a lot of space in there and. So he there to chat with? Anybody who comes by and there were there were a few people there on Saturday. So good luck to that project. We'll see. Who all makes use of that? Let's see. I think we'll take. We need to get some water. Why don't we take a music break now we've got. We're doing good. Oh, yeah. Oh, I haven't played this in ages. This is some music from rural Italy. The Maremma, which is north of Rome, South of Genoa on the West side. Very interesting music.

Speaker 5: Hey, total. Hey. 5057.

Speaker 6: Indian folk music. Very cool stuff. Well, on some tech news, some really bizarre some of this sort of bizarre as usual. Safe City is the neighborhood of Moscow created by the by the Moscow government. Touted by Moscow officials as a way to streamline its public safety. Public safety systems. But in recent years, it's 217,000 surveillance cameras. Supposedly designed to catch criminals and terrorists have been turned against protesters, political rivals and journalists about that. Yeah, well, you get your smart city, your smart home. Fully wired and surveilled. Yeah, that doesn't sound like a dystopia or anything. Not not. And AI. Surveillance dystopia and all. Certainly not. Well, I wish I could have opened this. You don't get the free stories forever from the New York Times anyway. This is from. This is a story that was in the New York Times last Thursday the 2nd. Called the teenager leading the smartphone smartphone liberation movement. And it could be this Luddite club. One of its members I don't know, but or maybe none at all. Anyway, this piece had nine co-authors. That's devoting some juice to that story, I guess, I mean. Maybe I should have worked harder to find it somewhere else, but. Anyway, the teenager leading the smartphone liberation movement. Pretty good in itself. Remember, Alec Baldwin is now being charged with involuntary manslaughter for shooting somebody to death on the. Set of uh. Rust the the. Movie they were trying to put together. Back in the fall of 2021. Well, it turns out he was distracted. He was on his phone during the safety training, the gun training. Yeah. Another distraction. Yeah. Just stay on your phone. Just zombie on out on the screen and. All the rest of it and pay no attention to anything. Get Dumber all the time and maybe kill somebody. Well, there's a story. February 4th Metro, a London outfit. Thank you RC for this one. It's called the six parts of a car collecting data about you. Just being in your car, driving your car. Of course, this is not every car far from it, but in fact not even all new cars, I suppose, but many new ones. Newer ones, just one big old surveillance. That's amazing. I wouldn't. I wouldn't have even guessed at the different ways they can do this. I mean one or two are obvious, but the but most of it. Is wow, you've. Got to really work hard to. To get your surveillance, if you know you've got it so many ways to do it. From the sanctity of your car or something like that. You know, obviously well another story from The Verge also Saturday, February 4th. This is a winner. This is something we've been waiting for. For $129, you can buy the Nix hydration biosensor. Yeah. Nicks as the company. Uh, basically it tells you when to drink water. It tells you when you should hydrate during a workout, for example. Yeah, you need a hydration biosensor to tell you if you're. Meaning liquids. How about an E device that tells you when to breathe? Yeah, I think. We need. We gonna need that one too, I guess, because obviously we don't have any agency or. Awareness of our own physical selves anymore, it's just to. I mean, it's funny, but it's also frightening as they. And I want to see, oh, another story from The Verge last Thursday. They noted that. That Apple has surpassed 2 billion active devices. Is going to lead devices from Apple. There were. That was 1.8 billion last year. Now we're in the new year and so it's. It's now passed 2 billion. Ohh, I suppose soon it'll be illegal not to have an Apple device. Well, here's something about this ties into the technology bit rather obviously, because now we've got the ease of E ordering. You just, you know, get anything from? Amazon or or wherever you don't have to. Go anywhere but. Where's the story from the LA Times today? About the smokiest place. Anywhere and mainly smog from trip pollution. That's the area. In big parts of Riverside and San Bernardino counties. Just east of LA. Now it's the dominion of thousands of massive warehouses storing millions of consumer goods. And they got to get from the coastal ports to your front door or your mailbox across. Everywhere, especially in California. Warehouses cover. More than 1.5 billion square feet of land. And lots more to come. Much more. Square footage planned or under construction already. Yeah. Again, technology hides the everyday reality. Well, it's clean, you know, just like the nice shiny computer on the shelf. You just you just place an order and then it shows up on the porch, you know, it's. It's quick, it's convenient and it's. And it's quite. Horrible. And you know the old shell gave you move that you're trying to figure out. Would shield the things and it. Will it's under all of them. Really. I mean, it's you can't just chase this the way you can ignore it. You can never think about any of this kind of stuff, but it's certainly. Powerfully there. Well, more on seabed mining, which is now ramping up. And it's certainly already a threat to marine life. This was yesterday in the Guardian, the UK Guardian. Thank you Sasha for this. Yeah, that's that's going to be. More and more. Ongoing on rushing and few people will bring their hands and we've got to watch out and we gotta be careful and blah blah blah. Yeah, right. Now here's a sort of related story from Indonesia. There's a Chinese. Nickel smelter operation there? Which has been going. For a little bit more than a year. Anyway, the workers keep dying at this. It's a Chinese company and. Indonesia's series of fatalities. In two sides, two which have plagued the nickel smelter. Gotta have the nickel. You gotta have all these rivers and middles and it's part of. This is part of the global nickel rush and another elements needed for. That's what makes them green and sustainable, you know? Yeah, it's just. All the ruin and. And the sacrifice of people who work there, obviously. But you know, it's for a good cause. It's everything will be fine when. When all of that process. Really comes to pass and it won't be costing. To anybody or any life not at all, no. Why is the home security systems? I guess that's a nationwide outfit that they announced this afternoon that they'll be down. Tonight, for two hours from midnight to 2:00 AM. Data maintenance. Kind of hilarious. Yeah. You want a security system that just shuts off for hours at a time? Yeah. Contempt to burgle your house if you. If you if you have a worthless system. This is also today's news. Volkswagen issued a recall. Notice for 21,000. Eva's electric SUVs. Citing faulty battery software that can lead to a sudden stop, it'll just stall out. Loss of propulsion. It's called. Kinda scary. You don't want to be racing down the freeway and have this car stop suddenly because there's nothing coming from the battery. Well, there there is. There is there has been opposition to some of all of this techno verse. The latest stuff this is. There was a piece in the Daily Telegraph. In London yesterday, on the 6th, and thank you RC. We're turning me on to this. You remember glass, the futuristic Cyborg accessory. They can film everything. So people would get thrown out of different places, bars and so forth because you can just be filming everything, including in the toilet or anything else. You know, it's just a. That invasive didn't really fly. Let me trying it again. I'm sure they're going to be piddling it again, but it's hard to going to see that. That won't be. Opposed at anytime they try to wreck this kind of thing. Well, let's see. The metaverse. I'm wondering just what the latest thing on that is. Well, virtual reality, of course, immerses you. But how about immersing everything in the virtual world? That's what universe aims at. Meta, Facebook's parent. Has spent over 30 billion. This is the funny way to put it on Zuckerberg's insistence that we will want 3D cartoon figures to represent us. It just looks like stupid and uh. They're wasting all this money. And so now, because this isn't really flying. There was a piece today that actually is another. Story today meta. And then pushing the universe. Of course, their VR hellscape might soon be invaded by children as the way. This came from Vox Media, I think. Anyway, the point is they're opening their VR stuff to. Younger people, 18, isn't the cutoff anymore. They're shooting for kids 13 to 17, seeing if they can beef up their. You know, be interest in this whole area or direction. Yeah, that shows it's not really catching. On there, they're. Wanting for customers and wanting for interest. Yeah, this piece in the Wall Street Journal. And this might start as early as. March. Yeah. This the main part of it is Horizon worlds. That's the platform, the social platform. Yeah, it's not really happening. It's not getting a lot of subscribers, active users, even the employee employees working on the service don't find themselves using it much. According to Alex Heath recently. So they're trying to get a younger user base to help revitalize this flagship VR app. Horizon walls. Maybe they figure. The younger they are, the more completely conditioned and indoctrinated they are. They don't know anything else. They may be wrong about that. NBC News today. Just more on the old lithium ion batteries that are really where now it's just the ubiquitous thing. In new forms of transportation, and even coming those little products just before the show, I was looking at a. A sort of boom box from Bosch and sit right on the front of it lithium ion batteries. So right there. But don't. Maybe you should leave it outside when you. Sleep anyway. These these fires are just more and more fires and more and more stuff about how intense they are. They burn so intensely. I think I mentioned something last week, a story about that. Yeah. When they and they. They release flammable toxic gases. If if the fire isn't quite enough and. Yeah, requires so much water. This is this. Yeah, this is. Story is beginning to be repetitive here. And firefighters need new training because this is such a, you know, nasty. Savage kind of burn that. Not easily put out. ChatGPT that is really a hard thing. It only started. It's a little outfit in San Francisco that kicked this off in November and now it's everywhere. And already there are rivals. Google is coming out with Bard. Microsoft is going to have Bing. Which is AI software like ChatGPT. Is a big story in the Economist. The race of the AI labs heats up all about the Stampede to have these. Quote machine learning things. And very predictably, if sadly the response and there would be no. No way to not know. Predict this. The basic responses. On one story. So the bottom line is, what do you do about that? And the prescription is think critically, think critically. If you thought critically, you'd throw all that crap away. But that's just a joke. I mean, think critically or be wary is another one. Of the punch out of these stories. Anything you can do about it? Hell no. There's a professor at Cambridge, Vice Chancellor for education that bans on AI software l