An Interview with an FBI Agent who Caught the Unabomber
Wendigoon: Hello everybody by the time you see this I will be well on my way to get married, which is very exciting for me and I am looking forward to it. But at the same time I regret to inform you that the Ted Kaczynski video will once again be pushed back another month. Hopefully you all understand and I'm really sorry for that, but I didn't want to leave you with nothing while I go off to get hitched. So for one, we have today's video, which I'll talk about in just a moment. And for two, as you can probably see, I am excited to announce new. March that is right after more than a year at this point of no merchandise, I finally have got some cool stuff in store. For one, we have this super comfortable hoodie that not only has the word windragon stitched into the front in this cool Nordic riding, but on the back has this fantastic pyramid and iceberg design and the design of it. As mentioned, isn't just a printed on design on the front of the. Cereal. It is actually stitched into the lining of the fabric itself. But not only do we have that fantastic hoodie, as you can see, I finally have released a window goon Hawaiian shirt. That is right, not only a Hawaiian shirt, but it is windy. Goon approved. As you can see, it features several iceberg designs as well as flowers. With a creepy eye in the center of them. And of course, a window gun logo on the shirt pocket. Because if I design a shirt, it's absolutely going to have a shirt pocket. I'm working with Juniper to bring these designs to you and I for 1:00 AM blown away by the quality. When they sent me the products for review, I was over the moon about it. And hopefully you are as well now. What's important to remember about these two designs? Is that they'll only be available for a very. Limited amount of time. We're only selling these things for a couple of weeks and then after that, they're gone forever. So if you're interested in either or both of these. Products head to the link in the description and get them while you can, because when I'm inevitably hauled off to jail and all of the pictures in the news of me getting the handcuffs thrown on have this pocket shirt or this pyramid on my back, you're going to be jealous that you didn't get it while you could. So get these while you can and stick around for today's very special. Interview in research for my video about the Unabomber, I came across an FBI agent who worked on the case herself. In the interview that you are about to hear, we discussed everything from the FBI's emotions and ideas as the Unabomber case became. Unraveled, we talked about the general reactions of the press and society as the bombings continued, as well as the legacy and motivations of Ted Kaczynski himself. This is an interview that I. Am frankly quite. Lucky to get a hold of and hopefully you all enjoy listening to now. I found the agent in today's interview through my own research and can validate. For myself that she is in fact an FBI agent. However, she's also received things like death threats for her involvement with the FBI and several of the high profile cases that she's worked. And because of that she has wished to remain anonymous. And of course I'm respecting that, but can validate for you all for whatever my credibility is. Earth that this is in fact an FBI agent and not somebody that I paid to lie and say they were an FBI agent probably. Normally I would just post this on my second channel Window gang and then when the main video comes out, link off to it. But honestly, I feel kind of bad about not giving you all the video right now because. Really, I do think this is going to be a special video and I think that it just needs some more time and with the wedding I didn't want to have to worry about both and sorry everyone but. My wife does come first, so I want to make sure that the Unabomber video is the best it can possibly be. But I also don't want to leave you all hanging, so hopefully you can listen to this, get some enjoyment out of it, get prepped for the upcoming main channel video, and then when that video does come out, I'll take the interview off of this channel and put it on win to gang. So hopefully this hold you all off for just a little bit. And again, thank you all so much for being here. So enjoy the interview, say nice things about her in the comments, because not a lot of Feds will work with the YouTuber whose name is windycon and made videos about things like Waco. So let her know that she's appreciated down in the comments. Enjoy the interview and again. Check out this merch while you can, because in a couple of weeks it will. Be gone forever. Without further ado, we're going. To go ahead and. Get into it, but as always. Thank you for watching.
Wendigoon: First of all I want to say again thank you very much for coming on. Do you care to to whatever degree you're comfortable, mention what your relation is to the the Unabomber case.
Anonymous: Sure. Well, I worked on the Unabomber case for just a few years while in San Francisco, mostly early, early 90s, and pretty much left there up about the time that the the manifesto was was going to be published. So that's. That was about. My involvement with the Unabomber investigation.
Wendigoon: That was certainly that was kind of like the climax of the entire investigation too, because, I mean you, you obviously know. But for those listening the. Manifesto being published as what eventually led to his arrest. So you were there for really like the hottest moment of the case, I would say.
Anonymous: Well, certainly you know, leading up to, you know, his identification and and subsequent arrest and and conviction, but yeah. It was an interesting time. Because you know, right? The middle of us, the you know the the task force, it was a large task force, I might add, you know right in the middle of us really working and thinking that we're getting somewhere. You know in in the investigation towards identifying him. We get the manifesto, you know that. He sends to the New York Times to the Washington Post. And then that's shared. With with the. Task force and so then you know now we felt like hey, you know we're we're there. I think we're going to get this guy identified. Finally after a. Long, long time of him, you know, basically just terrorizing the country for so long. So it was an exciting time. Would be there, you know.
Wendigoon: I I could only imagine. Because like this would be around the time you were there. He was threatening to blow up airplanes. He was, you know, there I think there were sixteen bombs up right before the manifesto was published. I can only imagine what kind of the pressure you all felt to get this guy caught.
Anonymous: Well, it it? Yeah, there was a lot of pressure and, you know, quite frankly, we were sort of all. Over the map, you know this guy throughout, you know the years and you know, as you know from, you know, your research, he he'd been doing this I think for about 17 years at that time. And there really was, you know, as soon as you. Who felt like when I say, you know, meaning our task force, you know, as soon as you felt like, you know, maybe we're getting somewhere and we know who this guy is. For example, he's affiliated with the university because these bombs are being either sent to universities or they're being placed, you know, he would physically go into. You know, some universities, UC Berkeley, is the one that comes to mind and place bombs. So as soon as we felt like, hey, we know this guy's got to be affiliated or. He has a. A gripe or a beef with the universities, then, then the target would switch, you know, and now it's airlines, you know and. So then it went to computer. You know it field, computer scientists. Engineering. It's just we just, you know. Could not get a good grasp of what this guy's true motive was and who his targets were.
Wendigoon: Yeah. Yeah. And it's fascinating because I remember reading about a lot of that. There was a lot of different theories passed around about, well, maybe, maybe he had this for a career. I think for a while before the 90s, like in his because he had a six year gap in between his bombings.
Wendigoon: Early on, one of the theories I read was that he was like an airline mechanic or that he, like, worked at an airport or something like that. Then as more you know, computer LED attacks happened that people began to kind of, you know, change their idea a bit as to what the motivation might be.
Anonymous: Correct and the the airline theory was a pretty you know a large focus and I think that. You know, just based on some of the some of the bombs that he was sending, the fact. That, you know, he sent one to the United President. He, you know, placed one on an airline. We felt at that time fairly confident that he grew up in the Chicago area. And we we felt like we were pretty certain on three things, you know, that he. Grew up in the. Chicago area. And that he lived in San Francisco and in Salt Lake City. I think at some point. And we knew that he had most of his bombs were handcrafted, you know, homemade bombs. So we we felt like he had some skill set or some skills within the machinery. And then, you know, that he was a machinist or mechanic of some sort. Sort of based on, you know, a lot of information. That we had. There was a pretty large focus on the fact that that he wasn't probably or possibly or should say an airline mechanic, and that he had a problem with United and being that united. At the time, and maybe they still do. I'm not sure that a very large hub in in San Francisco, a maintenance facility if you will there that there was a lot of you know believe that that he may work for United and may be a disgruntled mechanic or. Worked in their machine shop or their maintenance facility.
Wendigoon: And that makes sense for several reasons. Not only his targets being, you know, related to United or, you know, flights in general, but also there was a unique level of craftsmanship to the actual explosives themselves wasn't.
Anonymous: Right. Yeah. That's why I said we most of the components of his bomb like I. Said they were. Handcrafted he hand made these bombs and if only a few things were ever bought. You know when that would be like the some of the shrapnel or maybe some screws. But the bonds themselves were, you know, handcrafted. And that that led, you know, the task force. Believe that that he had some. Still with machinery and you know, possibly a machinist or you know that he had that capability, and obviously he did to some degree because he was handcrafting these. But you know that just was one piece, you know, of the investigation that led to the theories that, you know, hey, somebody's targeting. You know he's targeting unite and he sends a bomb to the president of United right after he puts a bomb on an American air. Line airliner. You know that? Fortunately at that time he didn't have the his bombs weren't that sophisticated, and he obviously got better along the way. But at that time his bombs weren't that sophisticated or probably would have brought down the airliner, you know, and killed substantially more people. But just based on the. You know, some at that time, you know, like I said. He he was. Elusive, and he and his targets changed. But at that time there was a lot of resources being sent to united to try to see if this was an employee of United, possibly at the maintenance facility.
Wendigoon: Yeah, absolutely. And that that would make sense again that you know you all would believe it had some connection to the airlines, especially given us targets, but then, you know, bombs began primarily to be delivered to universities after, like, Northwestern and stuff like that. I know they went to like, Vanderbilt Berkeley.
Wendigoon: Colleges like that. So then the targets became a bit more spread out, right?
Anonymous: Right. And I think again I'm, you know, going back several years, but I remember that you know that was part of the belief that he lived in San Francisco because the bonds at Berkeley. If I'm not mistaken, we're in a lab. We're left in a lab. And so they, you know, we're hand delivered. And so it's like, well, he must live in San Francisco, you know, or lives in that area because then shortly thereafter, I think he sends the bomb to the forestry.
Wendigoon: Yes. Yeah.
Anonymous: Association President, I think in northern or Northern California, Sacramento and so, you know, there was a belief that he lived in that area. But yeah, he, you know, after the airlines, then he goes to these. You know, engineering labs and then he's, you know, back to IT, you know, computer scientists, individuals or professors or research scientists, you know, things of that, people of that nature. And then then there was the one out of nowhere go comes. The ad executive. That lived on the North East in the northeast somewhere. I can't remember exactly where, but you know, so he he he was hard. He was very elusive. You. Know it was hard. To determine what the motive would be before we got the manifesto, you know, it just was it. It just really felt like that, that.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: He either had an affiliation, maybe with United or an airline, or. Somebody with the in the within the university, you know that maybe he was felt like he had been mistreated or what have you at one of these universities by a professor or something, you know?
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah. No, no, absolutely. And it it was. It was always fascinating to me because the first death that occurred from his bombs was the. 11th Bomb, I believe, or 11th or 12th is the 11th one. That's right. I have to get him straight in my head. The first guy he ended up killing was just a computer store owner. Like, just a guy who ran a shop. Was that I I believe this was an 85 so it would have been before you came onto the case. But I imagine that had to be a bit of like a surprise of sorts, right? Like why target basically a RadioShack when your previous targets were like colleges?
Anonymous: Right, that that's why I I said he was, you know, he was pretty elusive target you know, because there didn't seem to be, you know, commonality with his targets at first, you know it's his first several were affiliate you know university I think they were professors or they were affiliated with universities let's say and then then he moves. Who? You know what it looks like he's got a gripe, or you know, against airlines, you know, cause he puts a bomb on an airliner. Then he sends one to the unit. President. And then, you know, after that, I think is when he went to, I don't know if that's when he went to the computer scientist or. To the engineers. But but his bombs were getting better. You know, the his bombs were getting better as time went on. And that again was putting a lot of pressure, you know, on the Bureau. To get this solved, you know, ATF, FBI postal inspectors. I mean, it was. Was it just the. FBI there were several agencies. You know, as a multi agency task force, but there's just a lot of pressure because these bombs were getting better and starting to, you know, kill.
Wendigoon: Yeah, no, absolutely. And what's interesting too, a bunch of people talk about Kaczynski and they'll say thanks to the effect of like, oh, well, I mean, like, sure, he was a terrorist, but he didn't kill that many people compared to say, you know, event like 911 or something like that. But the only reason he didn't.
Anonymous: You know.
Wendigoon: Is out of accident because like his, one of his first bombs was trying to blow up an airplane. Right and in in his own notebook that he wrote. He was like frustrated that he wasn't killing more people with the bombs that they were.
Anonymous: All right.
Wendigoon: Ineffective as he can. Them so the only reason he didn't kill that many just seemed to be. I mean, lucky coincidence for those on the receiving end. But it just seemed that the bombs weren't working the way he intended.
Anonymous: Right, that that's why, like his, his early bombs weren't that sophisticated. You know, they weren't that, you know, obviously dangerous enough to to injure people and severely injure the. But he got better. He got better as time went on. And and like you say, frustrated that his bombs weren't killing more people. And then he, you know, upped up the game, as they say, you know.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah, which, which thankfully, you know, he was caught when he was because his last two bombings or two of the three last ones each resulted in a fatality. So he was he was definitely getting more destructive as time went on for.
Anonymous: Yeah, for sure. And again back this was said, going back to the pressure you know to to try to and and the manpower, the manpower and the resources that were spent on this, especially you know, early 90s and you know again, I know they're not just saying the early 90s was a lot of time and a lot of resources. Manpower. Over the course of the 17 year period. But you know when when the bombs picked up, there was just more pressure to try to, and technology was better as at that time too, trying to get, you know, parts of of his bomb identified DNA, you know, just things like that. It was getting better, but it just a lot of resources and manpower. Trying to identify. You know, for I mean lots of different aspects there was you know, like I said, the airline there was you. Know going to? Ohh, we believe he's from Chicago, you know, because he and and and he put ohh just just came back to me he on several of the bombs he would leave his signature and he would have the initials FC. So, you know now, now you're looking at who's who was that his name? You know, is that his initials? And I think later it came out that that's just for, I think, Freedom Club, if I'm not mistaken. But that and then on one of the bombs, there was some clues about the IT was in Robert. Robert and then had the initial VV Robert V So now you know. Now you're looking at every Robert V you know in the in the Chicago area or going to school. So just, I mean, a lot of resources just trying to. You know, run down every single possible lead that we had to try to identify this guy and, you know, fortunately for us, he got frustrated enough that he sent the manifesto, you know, to to the news, to the New York Times, Washington Post, to be published and. You know that took several months of. You know, decision making up at a. Much higher level. Of whether or not to publish, you know the manifesto because you know it was kind of an extortion. Publish my manifesto. I'll stop sending bombs and you never, you know, obviously never want to give in to a terrorist demands. But you know that that led to the big.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: Decision on whether or not to publish that. Unfortunately they did. You know, or who knows where where we would. Be today.
Wendigoon: And what do you think? Was one of the main reasons or maybe the main reason that they decided to publish the manifesto?
Anonymous: I think they felt like that there were enough that his, you know, peoples writing style is. You know it's unique. Each individual has a unique writing style and you don't normally see two people with the same writing style, and I think they felt like there was enough. Ohh. You know, in individualism into his writing that somebody would recognize it, he used a lot of the same phrases he used, you know, certain, you know, they could tell that he was very intelligent by, you know, his his grammars, punctuation and the writings that, you know. You know, I think they just felt like somebody would recognize that. And then once they got it before it was published, I think it was, you know, they they disseminated that to some professors within, like, Northwestern and, you know, the areas that they thought he grew up to. See if any of teachers, professors, anybody recognize. You know, some of the colloquialisms, you know, things that he, you know, talked about in the in his manifesto and the and the style. And ultimately it did right. I mean, I think that they felt like somebody would. And I believe the sister-in-law, right. Was the first to.
Wendigoon: Yes. Yeah.
Anonymous: To recognize it. And and talk to her to to his brother, you know to because since he's brother. But I think she was the first one that started saying I've heard him, you know, I've heard these phrases. I've heard this. Terminology I've heard. This you know. But yeah, I think ultimately that was decision and and at the same time, you know, we weren't didn't feel like we were making, you know inroads into to identifying him either you know. That was maybe the the best, best possible. You know outcome would be if somebody could identify him based on that and. And it worked out.
Wendigoon: Absolutely was there to rewind a little bit when you were well, you know, you're doing the investigation. You're trying to find this guy, that there's a lot of, like you said, sort of red herrings like the name written or FC that I remember there was an indentation on an. Envelope. That said, like Nathan R. Yeah, yeah, there's all these, like, different paths you're taking. You're trying to figure out, was there? What was the like, general reaction within your departments when a manifesto shows up from this guy? And like, it's pretty much as the motive that you've been trying to figure out laid out in detail. What was that like to receive that?
Anonymous: Well, you know, it was, I guess you know in in some ways a little bit shocking is maybe a little an exaggeration, but it was kind of like that this you know. Anti you know industrial, you know technology wasn't I don't think was really on our radar you know and and again I'm just speaking for the limited time that I was there. There may be the agents that were involved in that long time that that would say Oh no it was on my you know I thought that so I'm just again to clarify. From, you know my time there, it didn't seem to be. You know, on the radar that this, that that was his motive. You know that it was, you know, anti technology that this industrial you know technology is going to destroy humanity, you know. So I think you know, it was a little bit surprising to see the manifesto and or here. I didn't read it personally. I'll just you know, we were briefed. On it, you know. Yeah, because it was very, very long, very long. But you know. I think it. Was just a little bit surprising because it really wasn't on the radar that that was his motive. It it all seem. Like for someone to terrorize this country for 17 years to kill people you know, injure people, severely injure people. You would think that it was more along the lines of something personal. You know, I think that's what we all felt like, you know, a lot of people. Felt like any way that again, that he was a disgruntled employee of some sort, you know, that he felt, you know, mistreated, neglected or what have you by. By a professor. You know that that it was it would be something personal. And then then it turns out to be he just feels like industrial. You know, our technology is is going to destroy humanity. I mean, I'm just summing it up in a nutshell, you know, but.
Wendigoon: That's the basic gist of it. You've got it, yeah.
Anonymous: Yeah, yeah. You kind of wonder what he would do now, right, with artificial intelligence if he thought that was going. To you know.
Wendigoon: It it is. Like and I think one of the reasons a lot of people get, you know, kind of I don't want to say appreciate because again he killed three people.
Wendigoon: But the reason a lot of people kind of hear him out. So to speak more. And others is because back in the 90s he was in the manifesto, he spoke of how one day people will care more about their image through the Internet than they will in person, how people will lose social connections because they'll be so consumed with the Internet, which is almost prophetic in a sense of a lot of what the Internet. Has become, so I think that's one of the. Reasons that he's. Again, favored feels like a weird way to say it, but people think of him not as just a domestic terrorist. A lot of the time because of, you know, notions like that.
Anonymous: Well, if you could separate the two, right? If you could.
Anonymous: If you could take away, you know, his his beliefs and and his theories and where the world was headed with, you know, technology and and like you were saying with the Internet and social relationships, if you could take that and separate it from the fact that he murdered. Three people and injured dozens others you know to to get that point across. You know that that always seems to, you know, be a little bit, you know, on being. I guess mentally ill side, I guess of things that you know and that's again that's just my opinion, but you know.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: It just seems like if you if you could separate the two, you know, get your get your ideas out there, get your theories out. But you, you know, like we were talking earlier. You don't have to do that. Through violence, you.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: Know and killing, killing people that you don't even know innocent people and some of the people that were. Even that he targeted, you know, weren't the people that were injured or killed. You know, it would be an assistant or a an innocent person that just picked it up, a secretary or assistant. You know, I'm saying it wasn't even the people that he targeted. And and again, those people had nothing to do with. You know the the beliefs that he had so. I don't know.
Wendigoon: I believe it was the Vanderbilt one the the he was sending it to a professor. And the Professor Secretary opened it and she was like she lives. But she had, like, intense mangling to her arm, you know, had to be rushed to the hospital and in Kaczynski's diary, which basically was a diary, the note, the journal he was keeping, he wrote, he mentioned something like. Turns out the wrong person got hit. The secretary got the ball, not the professor. Too bad I can't make them more lethal. Like there was no hint of remorse that the wrong person got it, that it hit the wrong target. He was just mad that he didn't kill. Someone with it? Which I think goes to speak of his true motives a lot more than parts of the manifesto do.
Anonymous: Right. But isn't it sort of hard to to wrap your mind around that that a person says I'm going to go place this bomb and I think I guess the one that comes to my mind is. The one that he placed in at Berk. That was in a lab. You just place it in there for somebody to pick up. And I think an engineering student. I don't think it was engineering. Student picked it up. You know it, so it it it just let me just. Put it in there. And you know, see if I can get lucky and kill somebody, you know? And so, you know, what is the connection? There you know. So that's why it always seems, you know, personal to you know that this was somebody who was acting on revenge or something that had been done to him personally because it's kind of hard to wrap your mind around the fact that someone who believes at the end. You know, technology is going to destroy humanity. We'll go out and kill people, you know, and not give a reason, you know.
Wendigoon: You know. That's an interesting point. You just brought up that I hadn't really thought of yet. It makes sense that you all would think this is some kind of revenge motive or what have you, because his targets seemed to be just random people. But then when you find out he's some like to himself, some do good or, you know an altruist, it's like, oh, well, then why? Why did you blow up a secretary and like an engineering student? Yeah. Yeah. I haven't thought about it that way. But I see where the confusion would be on your part.
Anonymous: Well, because it's it's it's hard. I think as an investigator to to wrap your mind around the fact that someone can just go out and kill random people, send bombs to random people. Where these he got and and I don't. Maybe they. This was, you know. Maybe they learned this later on and you know, I had already moved on and moved out of there. But you know what his where? Those people, some of those people, the names, you know, how did. He pick out. You know this person's name? You know why? What did? The ad executive do. In New York or New Jersey, like what did that person do that he decided I'm going to send him a bomb? So that's, that's where as an investigator you you think? It has to be personal. Why would you just randomly go? You know it's different than, you know, like I said, a lot of terrorists that you know, you mentioned 9/11, right? They're just trying to, you know, espouse their views. They're trying to terrorize and, you know, make a statement and make a point. But, you know, in this case it. Seemed to be target.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: You know, he seemed to be targeting people or targeting certain locations like he didn't. He sent one to Boeing. I remember now with the airlines. It was united. It was the airline. That was Boeing. You know, so you think he's got something personal against bowling or united or an airline? He's got something. Personal against this professor. Right, that he's had some interaction with him along the way and is upset about it enough. To try to kill him. You know, so it it just an investigator. You don't think that he's just trying to make a general statement or, you know, a spouse a? Of you or a theory, you know it just it's just kind of hard to see it that way, you know? And then there's this, this person who's afraid that the technology is going to destroy like, say, social relationships and humanity.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: Can then turn around and go kill someone and destroy humanity that you know he's destroying a human and a social. You know, it just it just sort of seems to be a bit contradictory, you know, in some ways.
Wendigoon: Yeah, absolutely.
Anonymous: To what he was trying to the statement he was trying to make. I.
Wendigoon: Don't know. No, no, absolutely. And that that's kind of one of the main points I want to get across with the video, which I guess by the time people hear this, they'll they'll already know that that's one of. My kind of underlying thesis for it, but he really. Wasn't the sort of crusader he made himself out to be, but I hadn't yet thought about it from your's perspective. Like, yeah, why would you guess this guy considers himself some do gooder if his targets are just people, right? Yeah, that makes sense. Interest.
Anonymous: Right. Rent. Yeah, rent, rent, you know. Turns out random people. You know, I mean the majority, I think of people you know that you know, everyday murders, violence, homicides. Most of them, there's a personal connection. You know, most of the time, you know that. That's what we see in, you know, in law enforcement is there's generally some personal connection when someone decides to take somebody else's life, you know, and not just a. I'm going to pick this one person out because I saw his name on the news and I don't like what he said or so you know. I mean, you still think that it's personal like like I'm saying like, I saw this guy made a comment. I don't like his comment. I'm going to send him a bomb. Yeah, you know. And all along he's really, you know, just trying to make a statement. That but in 17 years that statement he was he had to be highly frustrated. When you look back that in the 17 years or so that he was doing this. He never got his his belief. His theory. You know, his motive was never out there, you know, it was never picked up. It was never determined. And so he probably had to be getting very frustrated along the line that, you know, I'm trying to make a statement here and nobody's picking up. On it but.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah, and that's. Probably that's partially what led to the eventual manifesto. You know, like his, yeah, frustration with his position. I remember reading that it's funny. You mentioned like, it feels like he just picked the names out of a hat, basically or just, like, saw the. There's the way that it turns out he picked a lot of his targets, at least near the end. Initially it was like, you know, a plane or a university. But when he started targeting individuals like Exxon executive and things like that, he would go where where he was at in Lincoln, Mt he would. Bicycle out to a local library is like one of the only places he would visit and and he would get like the daily paper and read about like tech advancements and he would just pick names that he found in the paper.
Anonymous: Yes, I remember that. Yeah. Look at where somebody made a comment or somebody was quoted as right, yeah.
Wendigoon: Exactly, yeah. So so like he would I remember one of the the professors name was Epstein. He was a geneticist. I want to say this was at Berkeley. It might have. Been it might have. Been Yale, but like, there was a article he read that Epstein had made. Advancements in, you know, genetics. So he's like all right bond to that. He reads about the Exxon oil spill and that an executive name. I believe this was Gilbert Murray that Gilbert Murray was defending Exxon in court. So he's like, alright, sending one to Murray. So yeah, it it was the equivalent of just like drawing names out of a hat. If they showed up in the paper related to tech, he'd send him a bomb.
Anonymous: Again and you know, you come back to, you know you, you know, there is, there is maybe some personal element to it. Like he said, he doesn't like what this guy said. You know, he didn't like that. This guy's defending this guy or this guy, you know, the forestry association. That was Gilbert Murray actually said that that he. Was the.
Wendigoon: There's a forestry, OK. The other one, Thomas Mosser.
Anonymous: And he was a forestry, the ad executive. That's who. OK, so the ad executive, he had something to do with Exxon, is that it? Maybe.
Wendigoon: Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: So you know, again, you come back to for us it just you know you asked earlier, you know what, what did what was our thoughts and opinion when we saw the manifesto and and saw what his, you know motive was it it just kind of took us by surprise because it just seemed like these are all individuals that he's. At a personal. Some personal interaction with at some point that didn't go well or didn't go his way, you know? And then he's going to get revenge or. And so just trying to piece all that together or try to figure out what do these people have in.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: And you know, it's still, you know, you look at a geneticist, you look at Exxon or an ad Executive Forestry association engineers, do, you know, he goes on and on and think what is the commonality here? What's the common denominator with all these people? And the and there. Really there wasn't one, you know within, you know, the scope of our investigation, we couldn't find a common denominator with all of these individuals or all these places. And sometimes it wasn't a person. It was a place, right. He sends it to Boeing or he places it in the engineering. Lab. You know, sometimes it wasn't a person, but it was a place and, you know, still trying to figure out what's what. Does that have to do with the one that he sent before or that he placed outside the the RadioShack or the computer store and Salt Lake City? You know, what does that have to? Do with that.
Wendigoon: Yeah, of course.
Anonymous: You know, so it just it was. A you know? A very frustrating and I'm sure for the people, and there were some agents that were that probably from the you know initiation. You know that when the case was initiated rather from the first bombing. You know, it probably had to be very frustrating over the years and then when he stopped, I think he stopped after they got it or it was believed that he stopped once. I think the last he stopped after he was seen right wasn't there. That isn't that the last one.
Wendigoon: That was when. Yep, that's when the six year gap happened. So yeah.
Anonymous: Right. And so that the belief was that yeah, he when when they. The sketch came out and all that stuff and the rewards started coming sketch. Then then he stopped for five or six years. I believe some some period of time. And so, you know, but it's still just trying to go back to all these years and what's the commonality? You know what? What, what? All these people have in common and what's the. Common denominator here. That and how much is he? You know? Is he moving around and then we later learned, right, that he was living in Montana and he would just go to these places. But, you know, for us, we thought he must have lived in that area, you know, to be familiar with it or that again. Now he's moved to, let's say, he does the, you know. Plants that are. Drops the bomb in Salt Lake City, and now the next ones in California. OK, he's moved. Cause now the next two or three. Or within the Bay Area, you know or in in Northern California, I should say because I think there was a forestry association. Guy was from Sacramento or and then, you know, you have the couple at Berkeley over the years and then, you know, it just it seemed like, OK, now he's moved to this area, you know, again another surprise of the investigation. Was that he had been living in that shack in Lincoln, Mt. For the majority of the time, right?
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah, he he had for the entire bombing campaign. I believe he was. He was just in that shack that he he purchased with his brother and was just again, aside from the occasional letter to his brother or like, visiting the library, he had almost no contact with the outside world. Which explains why no one recognized the guy, right? Because there's only a handful of. People who could.
Anonymous: Right, right. But but the leads, you wouldn't believe the leads. That we got.
Wendigoon: I'd say.
Anonymous: You know. Ohh my gosh. I mean hundreds of thousands of leads, especially. Like I said when I was there, when things were really picking up because he had, you know, he just had the one bomb and killed the first person, early 90s. You know, and now it's he's killed the second one. So things were picking up and more and more resources were being devoted to this. They had the hotlines set up, the tip lines. And, you know, every single person that call. Called with a tip was followed up. Those tips were followed up on by, you know, by agents. Either you know says multi agency, but they were followed up on and the people that were interviewed and then, you know, I I remember doing some leads on. We started getting, you know a lot of. Like who had bomb experience? It's, you know, who would you know who's for? You know. So we would get calls about. Have you looked at this guy from, you know, back in the 60s it? Was, you know? Planting bombs in this place and that guy still alive and you know, maybe he needs to be interviewed. So all of those tips that were coming in, you know, we're being followed up on. And so the resources and the. The man hours and the drain, you know, just to follow up on those leads. But but once that sketch went. Now and things you know picked up the the people would knew it. Yeah, people call, you know, I'll give. I'll give the society credit for. That, you know, people will. Call. You know, I think I saw that guy sitting on a park bench. You know, the other day and you know you, you go out and. Look in that park and. See if you. See anybody and. So there's there's a there's a lot of leads that you know that they that. They're followed up. On so, we encourage, always encourage anybody to call with anything. But you know that sketch. A lot of people thought he looked familiar, but. Just nobody knew who you know, nobody was. Right. Guess no.
Wendigoon: I I can only imagine how many people are like, I think my ex husband's the Unabomber.
Anonymous: Ohh yeah yeah, you get, you get a lot of calls of. I know this guy and he lived in this area. He lived in that area and you know, he would know how to build a bomb, you know, because again the the information that was going out. With the time was, you know, felt pretty comfortable that he grew up in Chicago. Ago that he lived in Salt Lake City. And then he lived in in the San Francisco area. You know, that was the belief that was our belief at the time. And we were right about Chicago. You know, we were right that. He that he did grow up in Chicago but or suburbs of Chicago. But you know, I don't think he ever lived in Salt Lake City. And I don't believe you ever live. In San Francisco, either to my knowledge, but but he traveled, you know, he did a lot of traveling to these places where he, you know, physically placed the bombs. He didn't mail every bomb, you know, like the one, you know, the computer store that that he was. Observed. So he did do that for a while.
Wendigoon: Yeah, he, like most of his trips, you take like several day bus rides. Because he just. You just take a bus from. Montana all the way to California. The only places that he really visited was, you know, grew up around Chicago. And then he went to Harvard for undergrad, and then he went to Berkeley for his doctorate. And that's where he teached for a while. Is that correct? Yes, Berkeley is where you teach for a while? Yeah. And. And then after that, he moved back with his parents. For a while, he had a falling out with his brother when he worked at the processing plant his brother worked at. And then from there, he just got the place in Nebraska.
Anonymous: Yeah, yeah, you're right.
Wendigoon: Or Montana. I mean, and from there's where he began his bombing campaign. So yeah, like he he other than, like, Berkeley and Chicago, most of his targets were, like, again, I I see how that would be so hard because you imagine the guy has to be near where he's bombing you don't. We're sending the bombs out. At least you don't think he's taking. The three day bus. From the mountains to do it, yeah.
Anonymous: Right, traveling with a bomb, right?
Wendigoon: Yeah, he's got a backpack full of them. Biggest manhunt in the country and this guy's got, like, backpacks of several, like explosives. Yeah. Wow.
Anonymous: And traveling with it, yeah. Moms. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And and and is OK with, you know, walking in into a place and leaving it, you know, and then just dropping it off. And I don't know why that one just keeps coming back to mine. It's the one that he placed in the engineering lab at Berkeley, you know, like how he gets in there and not be seen and, you know. All that, but you know today probably be a little bit different where there's cameras everywhere, you know that technology. Yeah, it'd be a little bit different today.
Wendigoon: Yeah, he'd have a lot harder time.
Anonymous: But yeah, you didn't seem to be too concerned about being being seen.
Wendigoon: Yeah. And I do agree that that one explosive at Berkeley does stick out of my mind because that was one of two. Well, there was a few in the beginning, but that was one of them that he, he was just kind of like non directional, right? Like he just leaves it in the room. We'll see who touches it. You know, we'll let fate decide, right? It seems particularly like vile.
Anonymous: Yeah, I mean, that's why these, you know, some people like you say maybe, you know, think that you know. They favor him. You know, I it's hard for me to see it that way because of what he did and and the people that he killed in the lives that he wrecked, you know, destroyed and, you know, even the people that survived, you know, their lives were never the same. So. I don't, I guess. I don't have anything really positive. To to to say about him. But you know it, it is. You know, I think you're right. In terms of the message and the theory. And you know, his belief of the, you know, technology and what that was going to do to society was, you know, pretty spot on with that. I don't for the most part, but.
Wendigoon: The the Unabomber was. Fine. Other than the bomber part, right?
Anonymous: Right, right.
Wendigoon: I did want to ask, so are you this all came out, I believe during the trial the details about it because initially his defense team tried to take an insanity plea, but he didn't like that because, you know, he didn't want to be seen as insane. He wanted to be seen as sort of like a a messenger. Of sorts, right? So you had mentioned that there were some theories within the department that maybe he has like some kind of personal grudge against these people he's dealing with. Are you familiar at all with the, quote, UN quote experiments that happened to him when he was at Harvard?
Anonymous: I'm vaguely yes. I mean, I do remember that like said no, he went to Harvard. He went very young. What was he like, 16 or 15 or something like that when he started? And and there was some experiments. But you can refresh my memory on what exactly they did to it because I I do remember there was some pretty bad.
Wendigoon: He was 16. Yeah. Sergio. Yeah. Yeah.
Anonymous: Things done to him there, but.
Wendigoon: Yeah. So he so he got accepted to Harvard when he was 15, when he was in middle school or wait. Yeah, it was middle school when he was in middle school. He was tested with an IQ of 167. Like you know, child prodigy, everyone was really excited to see where he'd go and he got accepted to Harvard at 15. He, like, accelerated through his elementary and earn his middle and high school classes. So he starts going to Harvard when he's 16, and he meets a professor at Harvard named Henry Murray and Henry. Murray was a. This was in. 50 I want to say this was like 59. 5859 because I know he got his doctorate in 1967, so this would been late 50s and Henry Murray was a former member of the OSS, which the OSS was the group during World War 2 that eventually became the CIA. So Henry Murray was working experiments for the CIA. During his time at. And one of these experiments that Ted Kaczynski was offered into was under the guise of being a sort of debate club like students would write down on a piece of paper, like what their beliefs are, what their religious political affiliation is, something like that. And the the premise was they would then bring it before. A professor. And there'd be kind of a debate about it and. The whole facade was that it was to encourage interaction between, you know, students and teachers. What are the young minds of Harvard thinking? But in reality it was a part of what many have called MK Ultra experiments, that it was an interrogation research study effectively so as Ted. And several other students. But Ted's the focus, as Ted would write down his beliefs on a piece of paper and bring them before a professor. He would spend hours every week just berating Kaczynski. There's audio recordings that still exist from those meetings. Where you can hear the professor saying like, oh, well, clearly you I'm surprised that you managed to pass high school. You have no idea what you're talking about. You have the mindset of a child, you know, just like verbally berating him. And Kaczynski was a part of this program for three years that he was at Harvard. So he would show up, like, three days a week. Just get chewed out effectively and called inferior stupid what have you. And then he'd show back up and do it again. And in Kaczynski's own writings, he said that he kind of enjoyed it because he felt like it was a challenge. Like, oh, can I beat the can I best this professor in the. And can I outdo him effectively? But what's interesting to me about and what I wanted to get your take on is despite his eventual bombing campaign, despite even putting in his his writings that he didn't like Murray or the people he met at Harvard, he never sent an explosive. Harvard, which I find very weird because, you know, send to Berkeley where he teaches, he send to other colleges, but never Harvard, which is the one you would think that he. Would have a grudge with.
Anonymous: Yeah, that's very interesting, right, that. Yeah, I've never. Yeah. That never never occurred or I guess I never. Never thought of that. But that definitely is an interesting point. Right. As is, because kind of like, I guess to tie it in a little bit where I was saying, you know, some of these professors like at Northwestern or Berkeley. You know, you thought there must have been some interaction where he was treated or he was, you know, humiliated, embarrassed or something. Berated, like you were saying, you think, well, there must have been something there. But that's a very interesting point that where he where we know he was. You know, berated, humiliated on a daily, you know, weekly basis. Yeah, that he doesn't send one to Harvard was very interesting thought. Yeah.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah, that, that one's kind of most of the details of the case. I can kind of wrap my head around, like, OK, he believed this. He did this. What have you. But that's one that's always like, huh. My theory with it, which all have God's a theory. Because, you know, I mean, guys, can't guys dead? I can't go ask him. Right.
Anonymous: Right, right.
Wendigoon: But the more I think about it, I think maybe in some kind of sick and twisted. Way. Maybe he sees what happened at Harvard as kind of like the trial by fire of sorts. Like he kind of appreciates that they hardened him because there's no way Murray could have known this. But effectively what he was doing is he was. Guy with a high IQ and you know and no social skills. And he spent three years hammering home that, like, making Kaczynski hammer his own philosophy into his head and grow to hate people more, which I'm sure I wouldn't say is a direct cause, but it didn't help where Kaczynski. Eventually ended up right.
Anonymous: Right. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting and. Yeah. And I don't think he ever to, to my knowledge, he never sat down and agreed to be. Interviewed did.
Wendigoon: He did so. He did a couple of interviews. He was very resistant for a long time. The first interview he did was with Ohh. I forget her name. She she's in the Netflix documentary about it. It's one of the like 3 or 4 interviews he ever gave. One of this lady. He agreed he agreed to be interviewed under the pretense that they wouldn't talk. I believe the rule was like they wouldn't talk about, like his guilt or whatever it was, just like questions about his life growing up, stuff like that.
Anonymous: Yeah. Yeah, I do remember that now, yeah.
Wendigoon: And he did that one. And then he did a couple more actually with anarchist associations. So like. There was, I believe it was called green, something like green hate, green envy, something like that. It was a group of green anarchists, so they would like protest, you know, pipelines and stuff like that. He did an interview with. Where he talked a little bit more about his motivations, but typically he was either really short in these interviews or he just never gave them. There were very few and far between. There was one time that I forget his name right now. He was the linguistics analyst in the case, the one who like picked apart the the manifesto for like grammar, the way he would speak and stuff like that. He asked to have an interview with Kaczynski. And Kaczynski agreed. But then, like the day before, he gets a phone call and Kaczynski says that he's too busy that day and he can't meet him. So.
Anonymous: My calendar's full that day, sorry.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. I know I've been in like this. 10 by 8 room for the past 14 years. But you know my schedule is full. I can't.
Anonymous: Alright, you know I was.
Wendigoon: I'm sorry Go ahead. Just gonna say, but yes, he was very reluctant to interview the general.
Anonymous: Well, I was just thinking of it here in a wonder and again, these are all just, you know, random thoughts and you wonder if maybe he didn't send something to Harvard because he didn't want to be like, you know, that would be just a. Clue like everything. That he did in a way, he. He was a loose and like I said. He was a very savvy. You know, elusive target. And and I think what he did as well, like you say FC, you know, he put those initials on, you know, some of his on the bombings, you know, were carved in the Nathan R The I always remember the Robert V, you know, like what? What were those? And they were clearly, I believe designed to to throw investigators. Right.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: So again, you're spending all this time looking for Robert V and Nathan R and what's FC and are those his initials? And what could that stand for? And you know, all this time. And so I, you know, maybe he didn't want to get too close to home. You know, maybe I don't know. Again, it's just I'm not I it's just a thought that maybe he's like, well, I don't.
Wendigoon: That's that's a good point.
Anonymous: Wanna do anything to Harvard? Because. You know, they may track me. You know, they. May get get that may help identify me once they start digging into Harvard or so. I don't know. I just said. That could be a thought too. Maybe. Why? He never did something, however, because anything.
Wendigoon: That's actually a really good point, because now that you mention it, think about what he was doing during those experiments with Murray. He was talking about his ideology and beliefs, and then he'd be, quote, UN quote, debated on them. Right. So at Harvard, there are. Or three years worth of documents of Ted Kaczynski explaining his ideology. So if he ever does attack Harvard, someone at Harvard may be like, hey, this reminds me of that student we had who was super against, you know, the establishment technology or what have you. And even if his ideas weren't fully manifested. That he definitely had some of those ideas from the audio recordings you can hear between him and Murray. So maybe he did an attack Harvard like you said, because Harvard has records upon records of what his, you know, his ideology is.
Anonymous: Yeah, a little too. Close to home for him, maybe.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah, that's that's a good point. That may be why.
Anonymous: You know.
Wendigoon: I never did. It the Berkeley one makes a bit more sense to me because by that point he was, I think, fully radicalized, possibly because of what happened at Harvard, but also at Berkeley. This was in 1966, I believe, or 67. In his journal, he didn't really have that many, you know, friends or people he talked to would journal everything. In his journal, we see for the first time that he fantasized about murdering. Someone there was? This psychiatrist that he wanted to kill and he would write this was while he was getting his doctorate there. He would fantasize about killing them. He even described it in his journal that upon realizing he wants to kill this person. He said he felt like a phoenix, like he was renewed, that this was the new course in his life. So at Berkeley, his like, murderous tendency started and then so to me, it makes sense why eventually he targeted Berkeley.
Anonymous: But isn't it strange that he never sends one to the psychiatrist, you know?
Wendigoon: Yeah, it is. It is very strange.
Anonymous: Like the people, the people, the individuals that he actually had a reason in his mind. I'm not saying, you know, in his mind a reason to harm them. He doesn't, you know. Instead, he goes after people that he's had no personal interaction with.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: That, that either you know, but go back to like, you know, the ad executive or you know those people like they said something he didn't like they didn't like. He didn't like their actions. But again, the ones that have directly harmed him in his mind, he doesn't.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: Do anything you know, like you think you'd go after the professor at Harvard? You know that word. Alright? The psychiatrist that he guess you know what you're saying. If I understood correctly, right, the psychiatrist is when he first started having these visions of of killing people. Right and so.
Wendigoon: Yeah, I mean that's, that's what I'd. Go after if I was that man. Yeah, that, that's the first time he ever wrote down that we can see that he fantasized about killing someone.
Anonymous: Someone do you think it would be someone that he didn't like, you know, or had personal a personal interaction? Again, just going back to, you know, generally statistically, you know, when people commit, you know, homicides and murders they, you know, it's usually a person that they've had some interaction with.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: You know, and not a random person, generally speaking. That, that, that.
Wendigoon: Yeah, there was like. Several interactions like that that he had like personal vendetta with someone, but he'd never acted on it like there was a what caused the falling out with his brother Dave. Is David hired Ted David was like a plant manager or whatever. I think it was a rubber factory. It was some kind of processing factory and Ted needed some money. So David hires him on and then there was a girl at the factory who expressed some form of interest in Ted. And the two of them went out on a couple of days. Well then.
Anonymous: Did they double date? Did they double date with the brother? Maybe.
Wendigoon: I that sounds right. I think they did that for like. The first date. Because I remember David described in an interview that Ted and her went out on one date alone, and then when Ted comes back, he was like, she kissed me. And David describes it as like one of the few times he saw his brother, like, excited for social interaction. So yeah, yeah, yeah. I think they had a double date and then that. But then after that second date, she tells Ted that she's not that interested in them, that she just wants to be friends. So Ted goes to the mill. This is so bizarre. He he goes to the. Place their work and he gets posted. Notes and he starts writing. His brother described them as limericks, like he starts writing all these rhymes, like these little poems about how ugly she is and about how, like, like he, he was just saying profane things about her as a woman, and he was just putting them all over the workplace. So. David was like, what? What are you doing? You can't do that. And Ted wouldn't quit. So David fired him. And that's what caused, like, Ted to cut ties with David. But you know, Ted never attacked this woman physically. He wrote about it, he wrote in his journal about the thoughts of being violent to her, but he never did. He never attacked David physically. He wrote about cutting connections with him. But again, there's people who it seems like, yeah, I could see how someone who wants to kill people would be mad at this specific person, but he never attacked those people. The attack, like you said, just dropping it off in rooms and you know buildings.
Anonymous: Right, all under the the guise of, you know, I'm anti technology, right or this industrial post industrial revolution or the second Industrial Revolution or whatever you know, but doesn't do anything to espouse that view in any of the. Any of the bombs, you know, there's no, there's nothing until he does the manifesto, there's nothing that. He ever does that says. Is why he's doing it, you know, to to give investigators, you know, a little insight into his mind. There's nothing that says that This is why I'm doing this. It's like I wanna see how smart. You know, investigators are and see if they can figure this out. I'm just going to keep doing this until they figure it out.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: You know, whatever it takes. Ever. How many people I have to kill? And then you know again, maybe just got so frustrated that. Investigators couldn't figure out the motive that he rides the manifesto.
Wendigoon: Did you ever? Did you ever read the manifesto at any point?
Anonymous: No, no, it was it said it it it came, you know, it came in. It was. I don't remember how long it was long.
Wendigoon: It's it's 33 pages I. Like times, yeah.
Anonymous: OK it. It was very. Long and, you know quite frankly, just didn't didn't interest me.
Wendigoon: I don't blame you.
Anonymous: You know, it was hard. It was. Hard to read for me. You know, not being that highly intelligent as he was. It was you. Know it was. Difficult for me to read, but again in in terms of. Didn't have time for it as as the investigation we had, you know, people reading it a whole, you know, list of of people reading it, analyzing it. And then we just got, you know, we got briefed on it and and you know the gist of of what it was. And then you know, for us as investigators, you know, at that at that point, you know the decision was and there were like, so there were a lot of clues in that manifesto before it was ever published because you quoted. You know, certain things in there. I am. Oh, certain, like books, you know, he quoted certain authors certain, you know, there were things that he quoted that were kind of sending us on different leads, you know, different directions as to what he quoted this something to do with the Chinese or something in there. I remember that one.. And then, you know, and now you're off down that rabbit hole. And so there were just a lot of leads that came out of it. But I never actually took the time to to read it. And again, I left after that. And was, you know, busy on other matters. And just never went and read back to read it. The reason that I bring it up is. Because it it's kind of bizarre to read because you know the context around it that, you know, you sit down and you're like, OK, this is the Unabomber, right. But he spins, he spins, the beginning talking about why he bombed stuff and he spins the tail end talking about why he bomb stuff. But the majority of the middle. Like he spins, I want to say 10 pages of it talking about leftist while while why liberalism is bad. Or like why most political things don't matter, and then he spends a really long time describing his problems with general economic systems. Or like, why historically, like I believe he talks about China for a while about, like, why China had, like, an economy collapse because they did XYZ. And it's weird. It's like you get hit by three and you're like, isn't this supposed to be justifying blowing stuff up? And and like, he does layout again, mostly in the beginning and end. Why? Technology is a detriment because it's like, you know, it pushes us further away from each other, which are the parts that people tend to give more focus than the rest of it, that it makes us effectively.
Anonymous: All right.
Wendigoon: Antisocial. And then at the tail end, he's like. Yeah. So anyway, because of that, we have to start blowing stuff up. And it's like he, he doesn't even try really to make a connection between technology, but. Blow up college student like he doesn't. He doesn't even try to bridge them, which I always found is kind of weird. Like, you know, you send 33 pages explaining why blowing up stuff's good, but you never explain why. Blowing up stuff is good.
Anonymous: Alright, yeah.
Wendigoon: It was. It was bizarre.
Anonymous: Yeah, it it didn't. Like I said, the whole thing. If if you look at it, it just never when I you know once I looked back and you know watched a little bit after he was caught. Some of the documentaries and stuff. Just to me, just none of it really made sense and some of the things like say we've discussed was, you know, I'm just gonna go kill these random people because I believe that technology is bad and and how are people, you know, how are investigators supposed to piece that together? You know, I mean, you know.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: And and the and. He provided clues along the way that really were designed to throw. You off. You know, there was nothing is there was nothing in the things and the clues that he left the communications, you know that he that he had within the the bombs themselves. You know there was nothing there to.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: You know, even in hindsight, looking back, there was nothing there that pointed toward, you know, this guy has a problem with technology and thinks that, you know, you know, technology is is going to be the destruction of humanity, you know, I mean, there's there was nothing there. So so I say it just some of it just you know, never really made sense to me all along. That that was, you know, the investigators should have figured, you know, Oh well, that was a clue we missed, you know. Ohh now that one, if you look back at the clues that he left, what is Freedom Club like? What? What is the Freedom Club have to do there really wasn't. I don't think there was a Freedom Club I.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, there there was it. It was an alias. He used to make it seem like it was more than one person.
Anonymous: Don't think there. OK, so see what I mean. Like he he in one hand he says I'm doing all this because I'm trying to, you know, this this is my ideology. This is what I believe and people need to. Know it. I don't want to get this out, but yeah, he spends a lot of time. Planting clues to send you in the other direction or or you know, or in a direction that is not associated with his ideology.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: You know, I mean. If you look, if you look back, I don't think there was anything that that as investigators you would say. Ohh that was the red flag right there that we missed. You know that. If we followed up on that, or if we had done XYZ, you know that may have helped us identify there was nothing there in that, you know, within the clues that. He left there just. Like the like the name. You know, I think one of them was something like I told you it would work. I think that was.
Wendigoon: I believe, he says. Uh. Look woo. Yep. Yep. Look woo I.
Anonymous: Look, look. Look, I told you, you.
Wendigoon: Told you it would work, yeah.
Anonymous: Were like what? You know, so there you go. Back to, well, must be a personal interaction, you know, it must be something that, like I told you at work. So somebody that has told him he couldn't build a buy, you know, somewhere along the line there's this interaction and and it just I don't think it that ever that that aspect of it ever materialized.
Wendigoon: Ohh, that yeah, that was another red herring it seems.
Anonymous: You know. Yeah. So, see, you know, it's kind of like here's a guy who is, you know, I'm gonna keep doing this until. You know I. You print my manifesto. I'm gonna keep killing. But all the time that he's, you know, sending bombs and killing people, he's not. Trying to further his ideology, at least publicly, you know or or in the open. And so then, you know, to me, sometimes you'll just look back and say, well, I don't know, you know, maybe it's just, you know, psychosis, you know, I don't know.
Wendigoon: Yeah, he it's interesting. He did all kinds of stuff to. Kind of lead, you know, investigators away from writing things like woo Nathan are and all that. But there was one time or actually not one time. He did this a couple of times when he was on the bus to go deliver the the mail bombs. He would stop at gas station bathrooms and pick up hairs off the floor and put the hairs in the bomb. That way, if the the FBI finds, you know, the remains, they'll be doing a forensic analysis on just a random guy. So like he was doing all kinds of stuff and I hadn't really thought about it the way you just phrased it. But yeah, most terrorists tend to take credit for their bombings because that's the point, right? Like, to get an ideology across. But he he wanted to do the terrorism part without actually getting, like the ideology apart.
Wendigoon: Cross right, and eventually he had to literally spell it out for people with the manifesto.
Anonymous: Alright, but he's not even, you know, like he's not even leaving clues that would help, you know, get his ideology out, you know? Yeah, he's actually trying to to get you going. You know, down a rabbit hole in another direction, you know? So he's not even. It's like, OK, here's my manifesto. If you publish my manifesto, I will stop bombing. I'll stop killing people and bombing, you know, sending bombs. Yeah, but but over the 17 years, he doesn't do anything to sort of say, hey, here's my ideology. Right. You know, here's. Here's a clue. Here's a clue into my mind. And he doesn't do that. He he's he puts a clue there designed to lead you away from, you know, his ideology. So that's why I said sometimes you look back and go just doesn't a lot of what he did just really doesn't make sense. You know when you. Look at like like you just said, when you look at terrorists, that's normally a big statement. We did this, we took credit and This is why we do. It you know, and and he didn't do that for 17 years, yeah.
Wendigoon: I think and this is kind of a spoiler for my video, but again, by the time people hear this video will be out. But really what I'm trying to do with the video is get the point across. In my theory, I don't think he ever was a proponent for nature. I think he hated people and he liked the fact that nature didn't have people in it. Like he kind of, he decided to be a misanthrope, to kind of despise humanity. And then window shopped for an ideology that made him sound right. I I think he hated people first and the nature came later. And while I've been reading a bunch of excerpts from his journals that he took while he was living in that cabin and one of the journal entries from 1971, this is right before he kicked off the bombing campaign. At this point he had to he had, you know, determined what he was going to. And he he took like 6 years to assemble the first one, and I get it shipped out. But in 1971, when deciding that he was going to begin this terrorist campaign, he said my motive for doing what I am going to do is simply personal revenge. I do not expect to accomplish anything. And buy it. Of course, if my crime and my reasons for committing it gets any public attention, it may help to stimulate public interest in the technology question and thereby improve the chances of stopping technology before it's too late. But on the other hand, most people will probably be repelled by my crime. And the opponents of freedom may use it as a weapon to support their arguments for control over human behavior. I have no way of knowing whether my action will do more good than harm. I certainly don't claim to be an altruist or to be acting for the good, whatever that is, of the human race. I act merely from a desire for revenge. Of course, I would like to get revenge on the whole scientific and bureaucratic establishment, not to mention. Communist and others who threaten freedom. But that being impossible, I have to contend myself with just a little revenge. So off that I think that he was determined to just just take out his revenge on humanity. He didn't like people he didn't like how they treated him. And he even says right there. My goal is revenge. And you know, maybe if people don't like technology because of what I'm doing, that'd be cool. But really, I just care about getting even. I think that's why he did what he did and I think all of that technology, bad stuff, was just dressing.
Anonymous: Yeah. No, I think that's exactly right. Look. But it still begs the question, doesn't it, though then, if if it's revenge, why? Why not the people that you feel have harmed you? Yeah. You know the the professor. You know why not? The those people, the. The girl that he. You know that just, you know, kicked him to the side. You know that. What about the, you know, these people? And then I think he had some issues with his parents too. But you know, I I can't remember. Maybe you you know more. About than I do but with your.
Wendigoon: He he he did somewhat. He felt that his parents at a young age, he got sick when he was in the hospital and his mom, like kind of turned him over to the hospital staff. She never like abandoned him. But Ted always felt that his parents had abandoned him and that as he got older, he felt that they pressured him to do more. And more scholastic things like for example, he skipped the 6th grade because his IQ was so high and he always resented his parents for that because he felt that stunted his social development. So his parents weren't really like that bad. But he did have perceived issues with him.
Anonymous: Yeah. Yeah. No, I I guess to your point, I yeah, I I'd say you're spot on with that. And it again, it goes back to. It it, it just didn't make sense. It doesn't make sense, right? And and then, you know, when you're talking about his, you know, writings from the diary, it's all. What does he says this is all about revenge and. If and there's something you know, else comes out of it, then so be it. But it's still just to me, begs the question and going back to what I was saying, as investigators, you know, you you statistically generally speaking people that commit these crimes have a personal vendetta or some personal interaction. Or something that didn't go right, you know and. But he stayed away from that. He stayed away from the personal elements of it, you know. And you're probably right. You know, all all was, you know, for him just about a reason. A motive that he could justify in his mind to do what he was. Doing you know.
Wendigoon: The only. Way I can think about because I asked myself that to like OK, if he if he just wants revenge, why not, you know, kill his brother? Why not kill the Professor Murray, right? Or the psychologist or the woman who dumped him? The only thing I can think is another thing I get by reading his journal. Is that Kaczynski? Was a bit of a coward. In like in like a personal sense. Like you didn't have a lot of social skills, but he it seems to be greater than that. He seems to be afraid to take action about things in his life, like there was a a scientist. This was before his bombing at the I want to say this was like 7273. There was a scientist who he thought about. And he he thought about stabbing him. He thought about shooting him, and he even admits in his journal he's like, I don't think I could do that. I think I'm a little afraid of, you know, walking up to him and doing that. So then he thinks about building a bomb. And he's like, well, I don't want to be there when it goes off because that that I could, I could get caught like that. Would be weird, so he picks really the most cowardly way to kill someone to build a bomb and then ship it to a state you're not even in. So I think that maybe the reason he didn't kill Murray. The reason he didn't kill that woman or David or what have you is because he was afraid. I think he was a coward to actually act about what he wants. I think he would just act out at some other target. He would take it out on someone else basically I believe.
Anonymous: Yeah. And I you know, to me never showed any remorse for anything that he did. I don't think there was ever. Ohh. I'm sorry I killed this person or you know. No, I'm sorry I injured this. You know, if there was there, to my knowledge, I don't recall. And again, I I like you. You've read. All that I have. It but. I don't think I ever saw or heard remorse from him, you know. For anything that he did.
Wendigoon: No, none at all, actually. Quite the opposite. After his trial, so after his lawyers tried to take the insanity plea and he talked him out of it, he. Did plead guilty? And during what did they call it after? It like the sentence when the sentencing is being figured, oh, impact statements, right? So the impact statements were after his attorneys already cut a deal that he he wouldn't get the death penalty. He'd just get life sentences. So the deal had already been made. He was already sentenced to, you know, multiple life sentences. And then they have the impact statements from the victims. So you know all the victims, family members come forward, talk about what was taken from them, what Kaczynski stunned to. Them and yeah, this was in one I've I've watched so many documentaries about 10 in preparation. I think this was the Netflix one, but I can't remember. It was a. The psychologist, who was like slightly I don't want to say sympathetic of Ted, but he was interested in hearing out what Ted had to say. So Ted allowed him to do not really interviews, but to ask him questions regarding the case, kind of like Ted kind of trusted him in a sense, right. So this this doctor was in the courtroom while the families were giving their impact statements. And he says he looks over at Ted and Ted's just like, blankly staring at the person talking. No reaction. And after the after it was over, as they walk out of the courtroom, Ted was like, what was all that about? And the guy was like, oh, well, it was, you know, the impact statements of the family members. And Ted looked puzzled. And he said that doesn't make any sense. Have already been sentenced. Like, why did they do that? And the guy was like, well, that's because, you know, these are the family members of those who you killed, who you. Armed and the point of it was to try to get you to realize that and Ted was like, huh? That's kind of bizarre and just goes about it, like, not not even processing like that. He may should feel some guilt about it. Like he was just like, wow, that was weird. I'm already sentenced.
Anonymous: Well, almost like the antisocial or, you know, psychosis, right, generally.
Wendigoon: Yeah. Yeah, I do think a lot of. Yeah. Yeah, I do think he definitely had some psychopathic tendon. I I wouldn't. I'd say he's probably more of a socio. I'm not a therapist by any means or a psychiatrist, but I'd say he exhibited more sociopathic system symptoms because he doesn't seem born with it. It seems to be something that was kind of cultivated in him over time, but he definitely did grow a. Kind of distance from humanity, from social. Interaction and I think that's what shaped a lot of things like Kim in the courtroom. There's this idea, a lot of people have, of Ted Kaczynski as he was just a guy who really liked nature and he hated seeing nature get torn down. But I really think he was someone who just hated people and he didn't like people. So he found nature, which has less. People. So that's why he liked it.
Anonymous: But am I? Did he say, though in the in the manifesto though, does it, doesn't he? Or maybe I'm confusing him with somebody else, but I maybe doesn't he talk about how technology is gonna destroy, you know, humanity like you say, social relationships, the Internet, it's going to take you away from, you know. Doesn't he? Talk about what he thinks that technology is going to do to to the, you know, humanity, the human side of it.
Wendigoon: He he does. He does. He talks about that a.
Anonymous: Doesn't talk about that. And so, I mean, if you just look at some of the contradictions, you know, he he says all that. But yeah, here's a guy who wants no social interaction with anybody, right. He wants to go stay in a 10 by 10 foot cabin in Lincoln Mt and never talk or to anybody that he doesn't have to. Right. So it's funny that he's.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah.
Anonymous: That this technology is going to destroy, you know, relationships and humanity, I guess, and just in broad terms, you know, the part of the, you know, the human, the human race, and yet he wants nothing. To do with it, you know he. He doesn't want to. Interact with people he doesn't, you know, he's. People are going to. Lose jobs. You know, all these things that they talk about technologies doing and. He he doesn't have any of that, doesn't want any of it, doesn't participate. You know, it just seems it seems to a little bit, you know, to show a little bit of his mental, you know, his his mindset.
Wendigoon: Yeah, yeah. He he seems like a hypocrite, doesn't he?
Anonymous: Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Wendigoon: And in in short, basically, I think Kaczynski was a bit of a pose. And I think that he said a lot of things to make himself sound more valiant, you know, altruistic or whatever. But I mean, as I read that, I don't think that was ever his goal. I think he just wanted to get even because he felt wronged by humanity in a sense. So he just, he wanted to take it out on something.
Anonymous: And he doesn't say it didn't seem low. You look back a lot of people that do this right, like some of these. You know. People, these serial killers like this, you know, they're they're looking for their ego. It's an ego pop, you know? See, see the news to toy with with the investigators. You know, a lot of it is about just, you know, feeding their ego or bumping up their ego. But yeah, I don't know that I saw that or I see that with them, that this was about an. You know, feeling more important than he is or being somebody you know the world will know my name. You know, I don't know that he seemed to care about that. I don't know.
Wendigoon: I I think maybe there was some personal ego to it. I think because like, I think he got satisfaction out of blowing stuff up, right. Like he would write in his notebook like success whenever someone died in a bombing. Right. So I think maybe. Got personal satisfaction. But yeah, there isn't a need, at least not directly. There isn't a need to prove. Himself to others. I think maybe there's a need to prove himself to himself. To you know, kind of like maybe he didn't need others to think he was better than them. He just needed to think that he was better than others.
Anonymous: Alright, yeah, I don't know. I wonder what it would be like now with the 24 hour news cycles and you know, cable news and, you know, at least back in his day, you you didn't have the.
Wendigoon: Ohh I can only imagine.
Anonymous: Constant 24 hour talking about him all day long on whatever channel you you'll turn to.
Wendigoon: Yeah, I wonder what feels now. And if you knew a YouTuber was going to. Make a video.
Anonymous: And I want everything a YouTuber out there podcast everybody to. Be talking about.
Wendigoon: Me. Yeah, I'm sure. Sure, I'd love that.
Anonymous: And I didn't. I saw it was suicide, right? Didn't kill himself. Was he sick or something?
Wendigoon: Yeah. So he.
Anonymous: I didn't even. I haven't had a chance to follow up on that.
Wendigoon: But yeah, so he got. Diagnosed with bowel cancer, I think it was bowel cancer. It was some kind of cancer. I want to say like 3-4 years ago and he refused treatment because you know, I mean, the dude lives in a solitary confinement, right? Like, he's he's not super excited to keep living. So he refused treatment and. Three months before he died, he got transmitted to the sick Bay effectively like the whatever they considered their healthcare facility within the jail because he was still at the supermax out West I, if I recall right. So he was. He was kept inside of the prison, but he was transferred to the sick. Area and they said that he was end of life like at anytime now he could pass away and then he goes back to his cell for a little bit kind of on a Hospice care. And then he died in June. So. But then, yeah, the stuff I saw said suicide. I think what happened is he he was refusing medication and whatnot. He was starving himself for a while. I haven't found anything specific about a method that if he maybe hung himself or maybe what happened, but he was. He was about to die for a while. If he did one final thing to kind of end the pain I. Could see that.
Anonymous: Yeah, I didn't. I I just saw you know that he died and that it was suicide. I haven't followed up on it to see if they. You know, like you say, what method? You know, how do you do it? But.
Wendigoon: Yeah. Yeah, he I'm sure he probably. I mean, he might have hung himself. He actually tried to hang himself during his trial when he first got arrested, but I imagine they don't keep you on suicide watch for 30 years. So.
Anonymous: Yeah. Well, super, Max. Sure. Yeah, I think they're in there with nothing.
Wendigoon: Yeah. So I'm sure he he hung himself. Yeah, yeah. I'm sure he hung himself, actually. When he was first arrested. He was in there at the same time as like Timothy McVeigh.
Anonymous: Oh yeah, something McCray and Robert Hansen. And there's a couple others out there, but yeah, Timothy McVeigh. They he was here in Terre Haute. I live in Indiana, you know. So they had him in Terre Haute here. And that's where he, you know, they put him to death there because that's where the they do all their death penalty executions.
Wendigoon: And so yeah, so like. Hmm yeah.
Anonymous: So, so, so we were out there for that because I was in Indianapolis at that time, but.
Wendigoon: Interesting but, but yeah, so that that's really all I want. I basically wanted to get your feelings about, you know, the the case, what it was like on the investigative side and whatnot. Is there anything else you can think to mention or anything you want to bring up? About the unabomber.
Anonymous: No, no, I don't think so. We've had a. Good long discussion on that.
Wendigoon: I think we have well.
Anonymous: 17 years, so I can't think of anything that, you know, pertinent irrelevant, you know.
Wendigoon: Well, I I can definitely say that I greatly appreciate your time and I know my audience will. It really means a lot you willing to to to talk about it? I know it's been a while. So thank you very much for refreshing your memory about a lot of stuff. And thank you very much for letting us hear your side of the story. It it means the most. Thank you.
Anonymous: Oh, you're welcome.
Wendigoon: Absolutely. And I I hope you all enjoyed and like get. Give her a thank you in. The comments to say. Thank you for your time, because there's not a lot of FBI agents, at least not ones I met cool enough to do a YouTube interview. So this this means a lot. I hope you all appreciate.