Conversation Begins


We talk with John Jacobi & Atticus Grey of UNC Freedom Club (an anti-industrial, ecological student group) & the FC Journal (an online magazine dedicated to spreading perspectives that value wildness, freedom, and the dignity of all life). We discuss New Primitivism, Veganism, Anarchism & much more.

Episode Sponsor: This week's episode was sponsored by Vlatko Primorac; who had this to say: When it comes to a message, I wish I could summarize mine in one sentence instead of two. Point I wish to make is I went vegan for ethical reasons, thinking I will be hungry and weak, and got rewarded with being able to run Ironman races way easier than ever before. Not that I am good at them, nor do I wish to brag. I simply want to point out there is instant karma to being ethical vegan. Perhaps I could summarize it in a sentience, after all, ... "Becoming ethical vegan brought instant karma in form of easier, better, faster Ironman triathlons; that precious little reward pales in comparison to the feeling of freedom and joy of living a compassionate, mindful, honest life." A bit cheating with that semicolon but hey, it is one sentence after all.

If you do a shout out, great, if not, f*ck, sh*t, d*mn, I still love you guys. Keep up the good work!

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Speaker 1: Which side podcast is a proud member of the which side Media Collective?

JORDAN: This week's episode is brought to you by Vlatko Primorac. He wanted to give a short shout out, but I'm going to read you his whole message just because I love this guy. Right.

"When it comes to a message, I wish I could summarise mine in one sentence instead of two point. I wish to make is. I went vegan for ethical reasons, thinking I will be hungry and weak and got rewarded with being able to run Iron Man races. Way easier than ever before." Humble brag. "Not that I'm good at them, nor do I wish to brag." Yeah, you do. "I simply want to point out there is instant karma to being ethically vegan. Perhaps I could summarise it in a sentence after all, becoming ethnically vegan brought instant karma and form of easier, better, faster Ironman triathlons. That precious little reward pails in comparison to the feeling of freedom and joy of living, a compassionate, mindful, honest life." I think he summarises that pretty well. But he continues... "a bit of cheating, but hey, it is one sentence after all. If you do a shout out, great. If not, fuck shit down, I still love you guys. Keep up the good work.

Well you know what? Fuck shit down to you too. Do you? I love you too. Even if you are bragging a little bit makes me a little jealous. And I don't do any *** **** Iron Man.

JORDAN: You're not vegan enough, I.

Speaker ?: Totally true. But if you guys want to sponsor an episode and do a shout out, it costs us 10 bucks Or more. If you're feeling generous. To donate that at which I podcast. Dot com and we'll say whatever the **** you want us to say. This is episode 112.

Yeah. We talked to John and Atticus from the UNC Freedom Club. It was a really interesting conversation. We talked about technology, primitivism, veganism, anarchism. And a couple. Of other things too. So I'll cheque that out.

What news and events do we have going on this week? What week is this? It's the week of New Years. Noise demos. Go out to. Your local prison and make some noise makes so much noise that the prisoners inside can hear also cheque out New Year's Eve. Shut down demonstrations wherever. You can find them.

The final slingshot of 2014. It's the final slingshot to Doo Doo, 29th of December 1890. 200 Sioux were killed by U.S. troops at Wounded Knee. Otherwise known as. The wounded massacre.

We gotta find some more uplifting ones.

JORDAN: Yeah, seriously, downer.

JEREMY: I mean, we have two massacres in two weeks. *** **** us, what the ****?

JORDAN: But cops are still killing Native Americans, and they're going unnoticed.

JEREMY: I wish I could say you were wrong. I really do wish that. But if you like these every week, we pulled these out of the slingshot. Personal organiser, you can get your personal organiser and right now is the best time to get it to organise all of 2005. I mean at any info shop most info shops if you have a local infoshop go get one there, if not you get one on online info shop like AK press, yeah. And you know it's a really awesome collective, so go help them out. This is how they raise money for their collective. And it's the shit, man.

JORDAN: They don't pay us to to sponsor them. Nope, not a penny, because if they did then I'd be like, yo, why did you take out all the animal and Earth liberation actions in the newest slingshot?

JEREMY: I sincerely hope you guys enjoy this episode.

Song: Which side are you on? Which side are you on?

Conversation Begins

JEREMY: How are you guys doing?

ATTICUS: Good. How are you?

JEREMY: Doing really well, I was doing a lot better 10 minutes ago.

JACOBI: That's good. Cool. Well, I'm John Jacobi.

ATTICUS: Hi, I'm atticus.

JORDAN: And I'm Jordan.

JEREMY: Yeah. And I'm Jeremy. So you can. Kind of tell us apart, hopefully.

JACOBI: Yes. Yeah.

JEREMY: So So what have you guys been up to today?

JACOBI: I have woken up and been on. The computer and reading. And that's that is that is it.

ATTICUS: Yeah, that's essentially been my life too, you know.

JORDAN: Reading anything good?

JACOBI: The question concerning technology by Heidegger. I'm rereading technological society right now and a book on modernity that's like written by a lot. Of different people.

JEREMY: OK, modernity. Now you're making me feel inferior. I'm not familiar with that term.

JACOBI: Modernity, as in like modern times. So like modern? Yeah. So like modernization is the process of a traditional society becoming a technological society.

JEREMY: OK. So this is like 1 area that I've never done a whole lot of research into cuz when I get into basic primitivism I research really stopped with Zerzan and I've never been a fan of old Zerzan. And I think. We've it's been brought up a couple of. Times on the show before where? I get kind of lost when it goes into the idea of art and time and language. Yeah. Yeah, so. What are you reading that's different than than just my basic understanding it was yours and I.

JACOBI: Do not actually. I'm not a big fan of Theirs's interpretation of primitive primitivism either, and I'm kind of upset that he has such a monopoly over the over the name in North America. Not because he seems I have friends who are friends with him and he's and they say he's a nice guy. I don't really. I've interacted with him over e-mail. I think once or twice and he hasn't been. He's been great to interact with. I hope maybe to even bring him to the university to talk to him about some of his ideas, but I really think that maybe some of the other thinkers in the 5th estate had it right with their idea of primitivism, which is not. This primitivism is not this. This absolute ideology, but it's about it's not about a return to the place to seem, but a reorientation to the more primitive sides. Of our lives. Davidson writes a lot about this, so he was very sceptical of of of zersen's critiques of agriculture and time and thought that it was the wrong direction. To push primitivism and thought that we needed to focus more on what we can do as people living in an industrial age. Because no matter what, even if we do succeed when with the. Earn, even if that was possible, the scars of industry would still be here. We still lost species. We still well, you know, we still have a huge healing. Process to go through. And so I I'm not really. I'm not really a big fan of talking about returns, just a lot of a lot more about reorientation.

JEREMY: What? What's your take on attic?

ATTICUS: I actually haven't read any of Susan's readings or anything, but for the most part I agree with John in that there is a sort of scar that is left after the fall of industrial society and there needs to be a focus on how to. Manoeuvre around the effects of it.

JEREMY: You you know. Don't feel like you ever need to rear gears and kind of I'm giving you the OK just to say **** it, you don't need.

JORDAN: To glad to have your approval for that.

JEREMY: Like one of my biggest fallings out that I personally have had with like the whole idea of quote unquote, primitivism, I'm not a fan of that terminology personally, but. Like when I first started, like really getting into the like learning about it and everything, I would have been what? Oh my God. Seventeen years ago or. So 16 years ago and I had, like, some personal correspondence with Kevin Tucker and about how his diving into that ideology made him step away from veganism and animal rights. And that made me just kind of go like, yeah, I can't really get into that because I totally believe that, you know, everything should be granted, you know, equal consideration. What's your guys's personal like view on?

JACOBI: I have interacted with Kevin Tucker before and while, I would say that I could probably put up with. I mean, I like theirs. And from how I've interacted with him, I haven't really enjoyed any of my interactions with Kevin Tucker. So I don't really. I don't really know much. About what? His what his views are, but he seems like he likes to troll people. A lot of the time. So I take a lot of what he says with a grain of salt before I before I figure out whether or not what he's saying is genuine. But as far as veganism and animal rights goes. There's obviously been a lot of overlap between between this whole ecology perspective and the animal rights perspective. In fact, Paul Watson talks about a time whenever he was drafted by Edward Abbey into Earth first, and then given a subscription. To the journal. And Paul Watson, you know, he's really about the animal rights. That's kind of where. He comes from. The perspective that he comes from. But he was a really big fan of Earth. First whole ecosystem approach and eventually call made the Sea Shepherd Society a. What did he call it? The naval. Branch of Earth first. So I think that there's definitely. A lot of overlap there. As far as veganism goes, I'm personally not a big fan. Of of vegan outreach, as in making it more than just a personal choice, but I think a lot of that comes from a misunderstanding. I'm actually trying to injure into a lot of dialogue with people who do it because I don't. I don't understand it, but dismissing it outright is certainly not the right. Way to go.

JEREMY: Well, perfect. What questions do you have?

JACOBI: I just I don't understand why it's anything more than a lifestyle choice. Why it's anything more than just a personal choice on on. Diet and why? Why people are putting energy into actually trying to make other people go vegan?

JEREMY: Jordan pointed at me like, here you go.

JORDAN: I'll let you. Take that first.

JEREMY: Well, let me first ask like. Why do you have the idea of wanting to get society away from an industrialised standpoint and going more towards a natural, you know, wild standpoint or whatever you'd want to refer to it as?

JACOBI: Maybe I had Chris could explain a little bit more about our orientation toward wildness.

ATTICUS: Well, our ideas is that wildness is something that is innately human. It's something ingrained in our beings and industrial society is suppressing that in whatever way that it can. It's making us put on facades. It's curing our wildness with medicine. Or, you know, addiction or material possessions, and it's essentially DVD's deviating us from something that's really human, you know. And I guess, really animalistic and. And preserving wildness is preserving humanity.

Speaker ?: OK.

ATTICUS: Essentially preserving freedom.

JEREMY: So let me take it from that standpoint from you. So to me, part of being vegan is giving the animals themselves that intrinsic animalistic value that you're saying. So right now in our industrial society, that how we do animal agriculture completely robs these animals of that freedom of that wildness that you're. Picking up and it's really hard for someone to say. Oh well, I'm OK with, you know, not being vegan. And still consume any animal products unless you naturally hunt or you naturally trap or cause if you buy anything from the grocery store or from pretty much. Almost anyone. It's going to be raised in an intensive agriculture fashion.

ATTICUS: Would you be OK with, like, raising your own animals and then killing them in a humane way and? Eating them that way. This is like a personal.

JORDAN: Personally, I wouldn't be. I feel that that sort of setting, like a hierarchical value. To saying that you're you're, you're. Better than them and and so by having them. As your own. You're already going into that relationship as. I'm using them. Whether or not.

JEREMY: Yeah, it's kind of like that. It's still taking away that that natural instinct to be wild, right. So the whole idea of domesticating an animal for one's use, I find reprehensible. To begin with, it's that that's that basic robbing of another setting. Creatures ability to be. What that individual creature wants to.

JACOBI: Be right, actually. So the group actually starts with three basic ideas, with one being that wildness is something that is worth existing and that we would want it to. Define our lives. The second is that wildness is being destroyed by industrial society and that. Industrial society will continue destroying wildness if unless it ends. By itself, like unless it it it destroys. Itself, or unless. People take action to help destroy it in in whatever way they can. And then the third is that that means that those who love wildness and. Want to preserve it will. Will do anything that they can to to help in industrial society. So this this basic idea doesn't, there's this tension between technology and wildness, but to view it as an absolute where we can live in an absolutely wild state or an absolutely technological state is not not exactly the orientation that. I'd want to go and I feel like if we're talking about. And so I'm not necessarily against, say, agriculture per se. You know, I just want wildness to be to define our lives more than it is allowed in industrial society. And so there's the question, I guess, of values and practical and practical application here. So I think that veganism is important because of. The values that it. Inspires and a lot of people it starts people will become vegan. Why? Because they feel compassion for living beings that are not themselves that connexion with wild creatures is built, but at the same time. I don't know if I would. I would personally put energy or want to to to yeah, that I would personally put energy into trying to get other people to go vegan because I feel like there might be more important. More effective, not important, more effective, practical things to do. So a big practical thing to do is to spread, to spread, to spread wild values, to spread values, that that encourage wildness. So I'm not. That's why I don't dismiss veganism, and why I think that it's important and why I understand that. But at the same time, I'm also a big group of people that I work with are hunters. And they go out and they they they hunt their meat. And so it there's this tension between, say, the hunt saboteurs and the activist community. And then the people who I work with, who. Who I'm friends with, who are like my, my they they go hunt and they eat the food and they don't hunt endangered species but. You know, I don't know. I don't know if, like, saying that they're wrong. I don't. I. Wouldn't want to go the. Way of saying. That they're wrong for eating the the animals that they. Hunt. Yeah, they. Have connexion with the wild as well, it's just different.

JEREMY: Yeah. No, no, for sure. And at least for me, I I'm definitely not speaking for every other vegan around rights activists out there. But for myself, someone who does. Do you know they hunt their own food and they actually, you know, use those, you know, every part, not the every part, but they use the animal for their own sustenance and their family sustenance. I do believe that's. Different than somebody who just goes to a grocery store and doesn't understand the connexion. Right. But at the same time, I look at it and say I'm all for survival, like I'm gonna do what I need to do. Survive. But I'm also for not doing things unnecessarily. So if I don't have to go and. Hunt, then that just makes it something that I want to do right, so I feel like if I don't have to eat an animal. And kill it. The aspect of going out and killing it in of itself is me being selfish and portraying myself over another living creature and saying my selfishness because I want to experience this is greater than your life because I don't have to because I have other means to sustenance.

JACOBI: Right, but the only reason why you don't have to is because industrial society exists, right?

JEREMY: That would depend on, you know what your how. Like you said you you want to talk about regression, but you know if you go back for the most part, you know it depends how you want to look at it. You know humans were more gatherers than hunters. To begin with, you know, not saying that hunting didn't happen, but it wasn't necessarily the 4K. It wasn't always the main sustenance of life, you know. What I mean?

JACOBI: Right, right.

JEREMY: So, so, so right now it in this current industrialised society, even hunting now is still based on on industrialization, cause they're using technology and industrialization like, you know, weapons, bullets, bows and arrows were all produced because of the industrialised society. So if you want to say, you know, you want to get rid of that and go hunting. And then go back to, you know, hunting with, you know, what you naturally have, which would be your. Fingernails, I guess.

ATTICUS: Your hands.

JEREMY: Yeah, I mean, so I mean, I think that if you want to say, you know that's going back, then I'd say yeah, that, that would be going back and is more in tune with, you know, a wild intrinsic self.

JACOBI: We actually also have this idea that industrial society. Can't last forever and that it it it will eventually collapses and and seems to have been in the process of collapse for at least since at least since the mid 1900s when there were lots of crises that have been actually staved off for a couple decades because of innovations. A big one. For example, is the green Revolution which allowed agriculture to to continue for a while for quite a while. But unless advances in biotechnology are successful, which they could be, and it would probably extend industrial society for a few more decades or longer. Oil's running out and. We may, we may eventually begin this process of catabolic collapse, and if there's a collapse and it wouldn't be fast, it would probably be in a historical from the historical perspective, it would be fast. But from the people experiencing it, it wouldn't be fast, it would be. More like the decline in Rome. UM. If this is happening if this this slow decline is happening, then people don't know how to identify wild plants. People would know how to scavenge and people would know how to hunt, and so I feel like the problem, the ethical problems that present themselves. The circumstance of industry in in our our current circumstance are a lot like say the population problem. Which it's so for, with the population problem, for example, there there is overpopulation, but you can't attack that head on for obvious reasons. And so that's. And also there's a study that recently came out that talked about even if the population, even if there was a drastic decline in population, it wouldn't really do much to our environmental to help our environmental health so. So the point is, is that there. Are a few. There are quite a few issues. With this technological. Society that can't really be attacked head on, so it's important to recognise these issues to encourage like an understanding of the situation. But as far in in personal choices are totally welcome. But as far as strategy goes, I think. More of the perspective that. The practical things I want to. Encourage people to do. Are are are causing disruption to technology technology itself, not necessarily individual acts of violence against technological infrastructure, more like more like collective collective disruption.

Speaker ?: Oh crap.

JACOBI: Just going to say that doesn't mean that I'm discouraging people from other from other actions or from other places, but the things that I would want to encourage. With the group. Like Freedom Club are, are, are, are. Are like spreading wild values and. Really pointing the practical action towards making technology the target.

JEREMY: Can can I? This is one of my things that I get kind of confused on and I want to get both your input on this. When you say technology what does that actually mean?

JACOBI: So technology is more than more than infrastructure. So for example, a computer, a computer would be more accurately called a technological artefact or machine, because technology is actually the system that created this computer. It's the infrastructure that goes into it. It's the organisations that go into it. It's the social values that go into it because this computer that I'm talking through right now. Is inseparable from the idea that humans are separate from nature. It's inseparable from this myth of the silence of animals, or the myth of. Invest it's also inseparable from this vast organisational structure that makes transport possible that makes the control and domination of humans and and in wild things possible. So technology is a system like capitalism is a system, and the computer is an artefact like a commodity is to the capitalist system.

ATTICUS: Yeah, I say technology as. Or the technological? The system as the step after the Industrial Society. So we're in a technological society. We've had the foundation of industry and now we're progressing towards something else, whether that is robotic humans or you. Know nothing human at all, yeah.

Speaker ?: So do do.

JEREMY: You believe that that this technology, when you say technology is? The system, do you believe that it can operate separate from capitalism, or do you think it's intrinsic on capitalism like it it relies on? Capitalism to exist?

JACOBI: Well, industry existed in a communist country, so I don't think it existed in communist countries. I don't think that I think the industry can exist without capitalism. As of right now, but historically it's obvious that the two are tied very, very closely together and depending on who you ask, like my friend, my friend Jesus in Spain, he believes that capitalism is the most efficient way to organise a late industrial society. But that given the circumstances. The technological society would would, would use another economic system if that happened to be more efficient. For example, if we didn't have the vast amount of resources that we have now, we would probably leave democracy and capitalism and go to a more totalitarian state so that they can manage the resources better. But the base there is the technological the technological infrastructure, the resources that are available and that can and that and. And so the, the, the capitalist system really depends on what's available, like what the technological infrastructure. In a specific historical circumstance or geography.

JEREMY: So when you talk about moving away from this technological system, does that mean, like, I still get confused on exactly what that means? Does that mean? The complete domesticating anything so would that be, you know, weaving cotton, would that be considered technology? Like, do you know, I mean, like, I get really confused on on and I hate to play like, you know, cause you can always find fault in any system by you know trying to drain down. But I just. Since that seems to be the point of it, I don't. I kind of hired have a hard time wrapping my mind around it.

JACOBI: David Watson again one of the early. One of the early thinkers who developed primitivists theory and 5th estate talked about the difference between technique, technics and technology. And technology is a system, but technics is. The technics would be, say, weaving cotton depending on what the machine was produced by, Technics would be like the irrigation system that some some localised communities have used, that that would be technics. Technics usually doesn't. If it usually doesn't, there's. No, usually a. Reversion in technics, but in technology there there can be a reversion, so the aqueducts. That were used. With Rome, which was a technological society. Or the pyramids that were built in Egypt, which was a technological society. Whenever those civilizations collapsed, the technology was so intertwined in that system that and so complex and dependent on the organisational systems, that whenever the civilization collapsed, the technology collapsed with it and went away. Technics on the other hand, can be shared in a lot of circumstances, but also maintains a bit of of a bit of local flavour and technique. Is just to say. Like a technique can totally be shared, it's never culturally bound, so you can technique would be like the way that you make an Arrowhead or something like this.

JORDAN: So so is our tools. Like falling into that category.

JACOBI: Yeah. Yes. So in other words, technology, I'm, I, I the question of what level of technology is. Maybe a a valid question, but maybe the wrong way to go about the issue because what value is desirable is very different from what value is achievable and so right now I think it's possible to end the globalised industrial system. What would result after that? Is unknown, but the point is is and or whether you can even revert. Or attack those like you can't stop people from practising practising agriculture. So the question of whether or not agriculture is is desirable isn't. The most important question to me what's important is that industry is can industry be stopped because industry is what is eradicating? Why in this worldwide and threatens to destroy it completely? Agriculture doesn't threaten to do that worldwide.

JEREMY: Yeah. And like when when you say industry? Like that to me. In my mind, that's intrinsic with capitalism. Do you know what I mean? Like, I think it's it's this, the capitalism that I think it is is doing that maybe I'm just splitting. Hairs here I don't know.

JORDAN: That's where I'm at. That's how I feel, yeah.

JACOBI: Because I don't know if you've given. Any thought to this?

ATTICUS: Well, I kind of agree with what you guys are saying. That industry inherently brings up this idea of capitalism. And at least at this point, you can't. Really leave capitalism out of the technological system and you definitely can't leave our industry. And I know that we there have been passed. Situations where technology has thrived in non capitalist capitalist society, but I mean, it's our biggest threat right now. Capitalism and technology together.

JACOBI: But if we attack capitalism head on, this can be subsumed by the technological system, because it can exist without. We've seen it already. It can exist even in communist countries. So the goal then? By consequence of being against industry, of course I'm against capitalism, but I'm not against capitalism per se. I'm against industry, and as a result I'm against capitalism.

ATTICUS: The goal is not to specifically outline. Capitalism, but to take down industry.

JEREMY: That's that's interesting to me because most people I talked to that would align themselves with primitivism, attack it from the point of capitalism as the mainstay. This is.

JACOBI: People might think with primitive thought right now.

JORDAN: Uh huh.

Speaker ?: This is actually.

JACOBI: A big thing. We're working on a book right now with some some pretty good thinkers called technique and it will be published after our essay notes, either if we don't know the title yet, it might be notes toward a new primitivism. It might be beyond anti capitalism, something like this. This essay will scaffold. Some of these ideas and then and then we want to come up with a book called technique and it will explain the I think it will be to.


JACOBI: Who we want it to be to the ecology movement. What does capital was to communism, except a lot less theoretical and written by 18 to 22 year olds. So. So we want to investigate, we want to. Explain how technology is a system. Explain the contradictions that are inherent in it, and explain what we can do about it and that that that really I think will be. Hopefully the impact that we make will be through that essay and through that book.

JEREMY: Hey, I gotta I gotta be fair that I've never really given serious thought to what people consider primitivism. Since late 90s, with my kind of like with the fallout with Suzanne, I kind of just have always push it aside where I feel like my internal thought process and. How I internally analyse everything is very similar in that idea, but I can't get around the idea like we talked to somebody recently where they said. Using a shovel is a form of domestication spoon or a spoon, and I'm like yeah, I can't get around that. You're kind of crazy to me. You know what I mean? And so like, I, I've never really given much thought to it because after that point, cause I really, if you're gonna tell me I can't use a spoon and I'm. Gonna tell you. **** ***.

JACOBI: Right, exactly. This is why.

Speaker ?: OK.

JACOBI: Whether or not it's domestic, This is why the absolutes are not important. I think. I think that there are absolute tensions. That we can create like we can create these theoretical conceptions of technology is the absolute tension pushing one way, and wildness is the absolute tension pushing the. Way and I think we can accept it as a general goal, to say that we want wildness to define our lives and be more present, and we can also say that industry is making that an impossible thing, whereas, say, agriculture doesn't. So the goal here is not to make it an absolutely wild circumstance, because this is this sounds boring anyway, because if there was. If there is this primitive garden of Eden or whatever. Where I wouldn't really want to be a part of it. I wouldn't want to be in a place where there isn't any struggle. We kind of have a reference point for this, for example with the Greek gods who have attained immortality and live in this great, perfect world without any suffering or whatever, and some of the gods actually choose to leave that to go live as mortals. Because there's adventure and there's blood and there's, you know, there's there's like, a a hard reality and so. So these tensions will always be here. The goal here is not to enter into some primitivist heaven. The goal here is just to say, look, we want wildness to define our lives. Wildness is not something that can continue existing if industry exists. So industry has to be. It has to end. In order for. Wildness to define our lives again in order to in order for us to even have a choice, to live in more wild circumstances, we have to end industry. So the question that we're trying to investigate and that we don't really have an answer for is yet is to what extent can we aid? The fall of the industrial system and we have some thoughts about this, but it's not completely, you know, we don't know completely. We're having reading groups to talk about.

ATTICUS: That doesn't necessarily mean that this idea is going to be like it's not going to happen right now. That doesn't necessarily mean that's. What people want right now, but like. Where Freedom Club Journal or the FC Journal is there as a way to inspire and sort of incite these emotions in other people. We want to. Promote these ideas so that eventually they'll bloom and other people will feel. The way that we do.

JEREMY: I do feel that these are the exact type of discussions that don't happen enough that I wish would happen more that I wish I, you know, have them more. And then I lost my train of thought.

JORDAN: I I'm definitely. I definitely like struggle with it personally. I think that. I don't know. I'm. I'm on. I'm I'm a programmer, you know, for a living. So I use technology all the time, so it's definitely. It's definitely something I struggle with, but I do see, like, the benefit of of not having technology.

JACOBI: Well, I mean, I love computers, I love them, but I don't think they're worth it. The, the consequences of having a computer are just too much, and they're hidden from me. A lot of the time. And also again me being against technology is not being against a computer. It's me being against the whole system that makes that computer possible because whenever I talk about the computer, I'm really not just talking about this thing in front of me. I'm talking about the Internet and the server forms that destroy ecosystems and I'm. You know, I'm talking about this. Whole large large. System. So again, it's not about like living in a in a world without a computer cause this computer is still gonna be here even after the collapse of that perfect and delicate. System one. Once it falls once industrial civilization starts its decline. This computer will still be here, and I'm sure it has a lot of potentials. This like heap of metal, has a lot of potential outside of the way that we're using it right now. But but. But as the but I can definitely accept that as far as the hard reality goes, the hard reality goes that the system that produces this computer is just not worth it. Unfortunately, we will have to wait a few. I mean, unfortunately, I'll have to wait for some other type of system. To come along.

JEREMY: So when when you say some sort of other system, are you open to the idea that new technology could make it sustainable and worth it?

JACOBI: I think. I think I think I agree with Heidegger in that there's always the potential for something like we can't dismiss potentialities, whether or not it would be called to calling it. Technology would be kind of like calling, saying a new kind of capitalism, so it doesn't really make that much sense, but maybe a new a different, something else that can do something similar to. A computer a friend of mine once. Said put it this. Way she's like, you know, I don't know that that we can't. Go to space on on a. On a rock. And of course, that's ludicrous. There are technical limitations in that in the rock can't just blast from the earth and and take you and take you to space. But what she's saying there is that there are there's potential for things outside in this world. That we don't even we don't even. We can't even conceive of right now. And of course that's there and so. So the goal here is not to shut down potential, but just to accept that what we have right. Now as far as. We know right now it has to like it has to change. And and so the knowledge that we do have is that industrial society has to end in order for wildness to thrive in a dignified and and and living manner. What that means for other systems is unknown. Until we get there.

JEREMY: If you guys don't mind, let me take this for a whole new little turn here. What are both of your origins like? What brought you guys to this ideology and to activism in general?

ATTICUS: Do it again, do. You want to go, go.

JACOBI: Ahead, Atticus. OK.

ATTICUS: Well, this is a very new thing for me. I guess I could say literature brought me to this point. I read two books that were really significant on the road by Jack Kerouac and then. Into the wild. Both of which. Have this sense of. Like loss and this need to find on the road the main character character, you know, he travels across the United States and he tries to find himself and on the way he gets, you know, interrupted by other things which give him sadness and, you know. His happiest moments are when he's under the stars by himself, and I guess that's the sort of like moment of wildness that. I took from that and and into the Wilds. It's the, you know, the book about Alex McCandless. And he went out into the world and he died, and people were very confused by why he would want to escape from society. But I found myself really understanding his perspective and. I don't know so that. Just kind of just. Put me in the direction of more radical ideas. About society, I grew up a liberal. I grew up a Democrat, my parents. Are Democrats like extreme liberals? So I've always identified myself as a liberal, but I've never felt that way. And then I guess. Recently I got into the radical political groups in schools. And I met John and we talked to a lot and he started making sense and we sort of started agreeing with this. And he. Was starting Freedom Club and you know, I just I wanted to join because I agreed with what? He was saying so.

JACOBI: Let's see. My development probably started when I was a small, small kid and was going to the libraries all the time and read a lot of books. I was raised as a chandelier shaking, Bible bashing Christian, so I would read a lot of religious books in the library. But it was near. The philosophy section. So I read a lot of philosophy as well. I read Sartre. I don't have that. That maybe that's how you pronounce his name? I. Ended up reading. Marks as well. I don't know. I read a lot about the existentialists and all this sort of thing. It's very interesting. A lot of these books didn't really like change my thought a lot, but. I find them. I find them coming up more and more often nowadays. So I would say that they probably definitely affected my thought then they didn't lead to any revolutionary thoughts or whatever, but. So I went a few years, my mother died, and so I didn't have to be a fundamentalist Christian anymore. And so at 14, I declared myself an atheist and started investigating all sorts of stuff. And eventually went away from the atheism a little bit and became a little bit more spiritual or whatever. And in this quest of trying to find myself in between that process of like becoming atheism and losing my entire worldview and trying to find other worldviews, I came across some radical politics and. And yeah, and so I was having some trouble with my family. I went from house to house a few different families. And uhm. I was in a very rural town in North Carolina whenever occupy happened and at the. Time I was. Really angry at the world around me. I didn't want it to exist the way that it existed. I didn't quite know what was wrong with it, though, and so occupy was thrilling to me because Occupy didn't know. What it wanted up the world either. So I was.

JORDAN: Like oh alright.

JACOBI: Well, and so I tried to get. Involved in the way. That I could, as a person in a rural town and I don't know, like contacting people over the Internet and read the new inquiry magazine and all this sort of thing, and then eventually. With the last family that I lived with my grandmother's house, I was living in my grandmother's house. I realised that I realised that I was probably going to leave her house and be. Homeless. So I tried to figure out what I was going to do. So I was going to go to no more deaths, which is a a project in. Arizona. Yeah. And they there are a few anarchists who help out there. Or so I heard from somebody who had been part of it. And so I was like, alright, well, I'll go learn more about this anarchism. Thing and I ended up not going because my boyfriend at the time got accepted into UNC. So I went with him to UNC Chapel Hill because there are lots of anarchists there as well, causing lots of trouble. So I read it on the news and I was like, alright. So I can. Learn more about it here. I ended up being homeless there for a year, but the anarchist showed me like abandoned buildings to sleep. And where to get free food? I kind of accepted the label of anarchist and then I don't know, it's been about almost two years now and I'm moving away from the label anarchist, I think. I don't know if it really explains my politics completely, but I'll always be thankful and friends with the people. Who have helped. Who helped me get through that time. And they also introduced me to the writings of the writings of Ted Kaczynski. And so I read industrial society and its future. And I was like, oh, this is exactly what I think, you know. So I didn't know what it was during occupy that I didn't like about the world. But I'm reading industrial society and its future, and this makes sense. I can call it the technological society. The fact that everything's so ordered. And then I figured out it was the Unabomber, and he killed, you know, he sent bombs to 16 people and killed four of them and. I was like, oh. What does that mean?

JEREMY: So know how that feels.

JACOBI: And so so. I read the essay why the future doesn't need. Us by Bill Joy. And he was somebody who very well could have received one of the bombs that the Unabomber was. Sending to people. But he said Ohh the Unabomber was right. And so I was like, OK, well, I can believe this. It's it's alright. What the what? Just because what he did wasn't necessarily an OK thing to do. It doesn't mean that his ideas are not acceptable. Lots of people or article after article proved to this where where people were like, yeah, that, you know, Obama was right. And so I just started from that point to investigate more of this anti technology strain of primitivism and and now I'm here today starting. Freedom called and hoping that it goes well and that we can make our impact on this kind of line of thought.

JEREMY: It's it's interesting that you brought up Kaczynski because I've read a little bit of Kaczynski and every time I read him, it's like, you know, OK, point A is good. Point B is good Point C is good. Wait a second. How did you get for to point X all of a sudden? Like I, to me, there's always like huge jumps in there that don't make logical sense to me, but that's a whole other. Other things. So Atticus, have you really done much into anarchism theory and thought?

ATTICUS: No, I'm really new. To all of this, this is legitimately been a couple of months of me just getting into this. I guess the reason that I'm a spokesperson for Freedom Club is because I edit the journal and it's something that I want to get into. I just I need more time and I need more research.

JEREMY: There's, I mean, there's amazing resources, but.

ATTICUS: Yeah, absolutely. Do you have any recommendations for, you know, anarchist thought or, you know, relativism?

JEREMY: You know, I'm one I like. I like a lot of the classic anarchist thought. A lot of newer anarchists kind of stay away from like Jordan. He's like ****. That they're old.

JORDAN: Yeah, sometimes I don't feel like older anarchists. They they don't live in the same society we live in, so some of their concepts are while they can be used in our current society, they don't. Completely apply to our current society.

JEREMY: And and I agree with that assessment. Except, you know, I'm a huge fan of knowing your roots kind of a thing. Yeah, there's A to me. This is kind of like a hidden gem that's online. But I talked to a lot of people. They don't. About it's called the Anarchy Archives, and it's hosted by a professor at Brown University. And it's just pretty much all the classic anarchist writings, all their old pamphlets, all free. There's even some newer ones in there. He he has all the Creative Commons that, like Chomsky has out, things like that. But it really focuses on a lot of the older ones. My my favourite introduction to anarchism is Bakunin's capitalist system. It's a short pamphlet. I absolutely love it.

JORDAN: David Graeber also has a really awesome introduction to anarchism called.

JEREMY: Yeah, great. And Graeber is a modern, you know, I'm not familiar with David Graeber at all. He's a modern anarchist where universities, yet now he got fired from Stanford, I believe.

JORDAN: I can't remember.

Speaker ?: And I could be.

JEREMY: Wrong. He got fired from a mate, an Ivy League University for helping students organise basically what it came down to. But I think he's at Cambridge now. Cambridge or Oxford. Anyways, he's an archaeologist and artist. Archaeologist. So yeah, I definitely recommend those. But John, you're also. Saying you're kind of getting away from that like I myself have gone through waves of ups and downs, but like, what makes you feel like you're getting away from it?

JACOBI: Cool, I can actually I can answer that in just a second, but I have a funny story about the. Anarchy archives thing. So I I. Found the I found the website and it was. And if I'm? If I'm thinking. That this is the correct website it looks. Really like an. Old old website.

Speaker ?: Yeah, yeah, mid 90s website, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's funny.

JORDAN: It does, yeah. And so.

JACOBI: Hasn't updated in ages, so I emailed the web. I tried to find the. E-mail and I emailed the Webmaster and I was like, if you're not updating this page or whatever like I can help you. Redesign it or like. Take over or something like this. And he replied so grumpily. He seemed so angry that I got the on the appearance of him, like his, like his active still.

Speaker ?: So that's kind of how.

JACOBI: I came across the Anarchy archives but.

JEREMY: It is a horribly designed website you're like if. It's ridiculous. To navigate. It's kind of hard to find like all the works, but there's amazing resources there.

JACOBI: Yeah. Well, so, yeah.

JEREMY: Gee, that's funny.

JACOBI: Let's see, moving away from anarchism. So I find a lot of anarchism to be kind of just a more radical form of progressive left progressivism and. I'm not a big fan of that, so.

JEREMY: Can you can you define that more for me like? What you mean by that?

JACOBI: Yeah. So there's this narrative that, that, that. We've been making a lot. Of progress and the like. The social justice area. So there's like the civil rights movement after the end of slavery, after whatever after whatever after whatever, and that, you know, we can keep fighting and eventually, you know. I don't know. And eventually, like we can we just like, there's a continual struggle to make things better and I. I don't really agree with that too much, and that's not to say that people, that's not to say that people who are the main and influential thinkers in anarchism. Are that way. But that doesn't matter much. Whenever the majority of the other people who call themselves anarchists. Believe that. It really defines the character of anarchism because those are the people who interact with, you know, those are the people who are talking to people who aren't anarchists and are and and who are like, well, what is anarchism? So that's one strain that I'm not. Really happy with. There's another strain of anarchism that I think so I'm not actually sure what in the insurrectionary anarchism. Is, but it seems as though there it's a strain that can be defined as what I would call opportunism, and I think that they just jump on every social movement that they can get and and try to try to push the ideas and. A good example of this is this pamphlet called nomos of the Earth, which came out during the climate change March stuff and the people who released it. Weren't really environmentalists that much, but they kind of just used the climate change March for a chance to push and or kiss ideas, which I wasn't really happy with. Although the pamphlet was really well designed so. I don't know. There's like a few different strands of anarchism that I'm not super happy with. They're kind of the dominant strands and. And so I it's kind of just a lost label for me. It's a label that I don't think asks the right questions also. Yeah, there's another thing. There's a huge thing. Whenever I tell people I'm an anarchist, they want to. Talk about the government. And they want to talk about social justice things primarily. And these things are important to recognise because they those are important elements that kind of. Intersect and create the situation that we're in right now, but the things I want. To talk about are. Are not the conversations that are inspired by that word. Anarchism. They are inspired by that word, primitivism. They are inspired by the word Luddite. So I kind of use those labels more.

Speaker ?: the first point you made about.

JEREMY: The being close like to progressiveness and the whole. So that's that's interesting to me because I can see like progressive liberals being that way, but I don't think I've ever talked to an anarchist. It's like, yay, civil rights is great because that's just *********. Like, it's like a Band-Aid. It's not really fixing the problem right. I would say that.

Speaker ?: I think.

JEREMY: Anarchism like, received its height in the 30s and ever since then, it's been on a decline. Now there's been any progression since the mid 30s, really. That's his personal yeah.

Speaker ?: I just.

JACOBI: What I mean by that is more like anarchists get. Involved in things. Where they where they, I don't know what their intention is really because I I haven't really investigated the history that in depth yet, but the consequence is that they end up being Co opted by the progressives and this happens over and over again. So what they're really doing, what they intend to do is. Whatever. But what they're actually doing is they're giving heat. They're giving a lot of strength to the progressive. Cause and this can be avoided very simply. It's been talked about again and again and again about like figuring out. I just feel like there's enough material there for people to investigate, like how to avoid this, and I don't and I don't. I don't think it's actually being done.

Speaker ?: It's funny to me because that is the same.

JEREMY: Critique. I feel I have. With communists. Like like.

Speaker ?: Honestly, yeah, yeah.

JORDAN: I feel like I'm constantly butting heads with the progressive.

JEREMY: Left, I don't feel that I'm ever. Oh, yeah, it's. I don't like I'm ever on a same page, no.

Speaker ?: That's good. And then.

JORDAN: Again, yeah, I'm also not on the same page with the right so. That's why I'm an anarchist.

JEREMY: Yeah. I mean, I like the term anarchist because it's the only thing that I have found that even remotely starts to describe the way I feel about, you know, the idea of hierarchy and the idea of what actual freedom means.

JACOBI: Yeah. So because you were telling me a little bit about some of you had some sceptical feelings about anarchism as. A word as a label. That you would use. Maybe you have some good thoughts on this.

ATTICUS: Just that it. Elicit certain images and certain ideas and it has a lot of implications that. Aren't necessarily the most productive. It's heavy. You know, people hear that word and they automatically assume certain things. And it to me kind of stifles production depending on, I guess, what your. Goal is but. I feel like sometimes it's better to just not have the label at all so that you can get things done like people aren't gonna look at you if they don't hear that word. If they hear that. Word you're going to be watched, you know?

JEREMY: You know, that's kind of funny, cause that's one of the reasons I came back to the term was that I like the idea that it elicited the complete wrong. Ideal like ideas of what it is, because what what that does is you can instantly then correct that and then they it kind of maybe this is just my pipe dream, but it makes them think, well, if I'm completely wrong about this, what the **** else am I wrong about? Like what else have I been taught that is completely not accurate?

JACOBI: The problem is is they're actually right. About a lot of these things. So they talk. About so for example, there's this idea of anarchists. Is just like. Wanting to always smash things up and well. Well, it's not. The core of anarchism? It's certainly the type that's that. That's the public face of anarchism in a lot of areas. Where there's super like insurrectos in anarchist groups where people only hear about anarchists whenever they smash cop cars or whenever they go to a demonstration and and and. Not that this. Is a a bad tactic, but that it's all the time that.

Speaker ?: Yeah, yeah.

JACOBI: People are going to be like. Well, the anarchists really just want to smash things up and they wanna. They wanna use large crowds in order to be. Able to do that. And that's that's true in a lot of areas that's used over and over again. And I think that that's a tendency that's actually getting out of control. Which you know, of course, is the is the idea to make it out of control or whatever. But I think that what what happens there is that what you achieved is yeah, sure. There's an out of control situation and you can smash smash lots of things up, but the thing that actually gets you through large disruptive. Situations, the relationships that you build are actually not being built because people are like, well, they just they don't want to actually interact with us. They're just masked people who are scary and and. You know this is. This is this is might just be a problem that people. Have to overcome. But it's one that is such a problem right now and seems insurmountable to me that it doesn't seem helpful to use the label.

JEREMY: Well, I mean this is, I would say it's very similar to the problem that happened in the late 90s, like going around, you know, like WTO protests in like Seattle, like the aftermath of that. And I don't know. You guys were probably you said you guys were like 1820, so you guys were probably a little young for that. But I was I was. Actually, in Seattle, for that and. There was a. Lot of those exact same discussions and. For for me, coming out of it is like you're right. That does lead to people saying they only want to match. Things up, but. At least to greater discussions in the long run. Because one yes, I. Do support them smashing the cop cars. **** the police. And then I also, you know, completely support, you know, helping your neighbour out at the same time. It trying to show that dichotomy of like what that really means and I think it opens up more discussions about why that cop car is being smashed, why that authority is being challenged, why that hierarchical structure, why the violence of the state needs to be challenged on every single level, and that, you know, sometimes pacifism, you know, is probably the most violent way to go, and that the only way to really. Stop violence can be violence in of itself.

JACOBI: Atticus, do you have?

ATTICUS: Any thoughts falls? I was just actually going to ask. How do you guys feel about? And like we were talking about earlier, the relationships between anarchists and the other general public and maybe other activist. Groups. How do you? Create these relationships. Because like you said earlier, you know it creates a dialogue, but only certain people are going to listen to that dialogue. They're going to be people that see, you know, the anarchist, you know. Persona made by the media, and they're gonna be like, oh, no, these techniques don't work with us. Even though you're battling the same thing, how do you create a community like that? How do you create a / a community for everybody?

JEREMY: I pointed to Jordan. You can you can take that one.

ATTICUS: If that's possible, I mean. It's OK if it's not, but that's not.

JACOBI: Well, I don't I.

JORDAN: Don't. I don't think that anarchists are always in black blocks, smashing things up, anarchists. Are participating in general assemblies. And and not all black blocks are anarchist, and that needs to be clear. Yeah. And obviously that's that's true as well. However, I think that so outside of being in black bloc, they're still building these relationships and they're still. Furthering their their ideas as well as working together with the.

JEREMY: Other people, I think a great look at this is the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Like the best organisation on the ground, feeding people, housing people, making sure.

JORDAN: Was still not born.

JEREMY: People are safe. Was anarchist organisations like you know, it's so much so the state actually came in trying to shut down these organisations from feeding people? And so it it can definitely be done. But I think the way that access need to do it is it needs to not be going in there and being the saviour, it's going into communities and saying what? Do you as a community? Need we're here to support you, not tell you how to be. And I think that's like a key tenet of what anarchism like. I think a lot of other ideologies come in and say, well, our ideology dictates it has to be this way. But I think the good thing about a lot of anarchist ideology is that it's really more flexible in a lot of ways because it it's really about. The end goal? It's about, you know, doing what needs to be done to achieve the end goal and not, you know, succumbing to the hierarchy with that.

JACOBI: Right. Let me, I mean I just want to. Be clear that I I've. Been behind some of. This earlier whenever I thought that I was really gonna, like, operate as an anarchist. Like that was gonna be my identity. Where there was, like, say, there was a protest in Durham and sea and some some anarchists went and smashed the windows in the police station. And then there was this, you know, big rumour about like the, I mean this big like. Basically, falsehood that was spread by some of the liberal activists that anarchists just want to come and smash it up and then run away and then leave the crowd defend for themselves. But anarchist rolls are really involved in helping pay for the bail for the kids that were arrested then and helped run events for the skaters and you know, like they were. Really. So I'm not. I'm not. Saying that, that's what. Therapists do like do in all situations where they just smash things up and then that's it. And I'm not really. I'm just saying that this is certainly the image that is portrayed and in many cases it is true in local areas and and that in for the for the purposes of Freedom Club, where we want to. Investigate these new ideas and want them to kind of take hold. The people that we want to talk to are being alienated by anarchism. And so it just doesn't seem like a good idea to put ourselves underneath that banner.

JEREMY: You know, I do agree that my my biggest falling out with anarchism mainly has to do with like the like crime thing where it is all about smashing ****. It's not about building.

JORDAN: Newer crime things. Not as it's. It's it's evolved a little bit.

JEREMY: I'll. I'll give him that. But like we were talking to Scott Crowe earlier, who was one of the key organisers in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and. I really do believe if we want to do anything positive we have to organise our communities and as anarchists, I do believe we are better suited than most to do that.

JACOBI: Why do you say that like?

JEREMY: I said before. With going in there with the open, the open mind like yeah, if you if you if you go into any situation and try to to dictate the first thing like first thing happens to me.

JACOBI: Oh, right.

JEREMY: I'll I'll walk into something and if I say, oh, I'm, I'm this is what needs to be happened. I'm a white middle class male exerting my privilege. Right. So that's obviously not gonna work in. Most situations you know, I as and I think the best thing that anarchists can do. And I think they do a lot is like you were saying you they get into the background of the organising. They're the ones you know helping to organise you know the bell releases they're the ones that are organising the kitchens. They're the ones that are organising. I mean the entire occupied movement. Was an anarchist movement. When you really get get look at at the roots of it, you know what kept it going? Where's anarchist, what the entire organisational structure were anarchists and. So that in of itself I think can show you the heights of what anarchy organising can achieve.

JACOBI: Right. And we actually are inspired very much by I think I can, I think I can from my conversations with that because maybe you feel this way too, just correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that there are lots of good ideas and anarchism that are inspiring and that I have at least adopted for my own approach to this group, Freedom Club. But but. Anarchism, taken as a whole, inspires questions and ideologies and a type of line of thinking, like a path of thinking that I just don't think. I think it diverges from where I want to go at some point, and so the label just doesn't seem super helpful to you. News. But you know you have to. I have to recognise that I live in a town where the. Reason why I'm able to get food. Where the reason why I was able to get get food consistently is because I just soap me out. You know, the people who mentor me are older anarchists, the people who the ideas that inspire me often come from anarchism. So it's not that I'm I'm saying that. Lyricism is is wrong or bad or that I don't want anything to. Do with it. But just that I think that there's enough difference for me. To say that it's not a label that I want to go by.

Speaker ?: So if you had to Labour.

JEREMY: Yourself. What would you you.

JACOBI: I like the idea of primitivist without the anarco or the label Luddite.

JEREMY: Can you? Can you really explain to me more what Luddite cause to me when I hear the term Luddite? I think religious sell it, yeah.

JORDAN: Think religion.

JACOBI: You think? What sell? It what you think religious? Yeah.

JEREMY: Like religious zealots? Yeah.

JORDAN: I that's what I.

JEREMY: Cause I'm ignorant. I don't know. Like.

JORDAN: Honestly, yeah.

JACOBI: Atticus, you were gonna say something.

ATTICUS: Oh, I was just surprised that you thought of like, religion came to your. Mind, that's all.

JEREMY: Yeah, yeah, that's that's honestly like the first thing that comes to my mind when when I hear the term letter. But I mean, I do know it doesn't. The term light just means like a a rejection of technology.

JACOBI: Well, that's what it means now. Historically, the Luddites were in the 1800s, they were stocking frame, they were workers, textile mill workers who were mad that machines were taking their jobs and their livelihood and and thought that it was that the machines and industrialization was eventually going to destroy their way of life and.

Speaker ?: You were right.

JACOBI: And and this was during, you know, this was during the industrial Revolution, whenever Marxism was was coming along and and and Communism was saying, look, here's an alternative to the problems of industrialism. Or you had the utopian socialists, and then you had the capitalists. And then you had lots of these different things, but the only the only strain, the only reaction to the industrial. Revolution, that outright rejected. It was the Luddites, and they smashed the machinery and they started food riot. Bits and eventually they tried to start an insurgency but were destroyed because they were courted by Union. The workers were courted by unions, so the Luddites were, I think they they're two important aspects about the Luddites and the reason why I like bringing in that term, actually three. So the first one is that they were the only. Response that just rejected industrialism outright. The second is that they really are part of this long tradition of people questioning whether or not a new technological advance outweighs. The good of those new technological advances outweighs the bad, or vice versa, and then three it's been used in modern times to to for like Earth first or for anybody who just has a critical attitude toward technology. And I like the idea of taking an epithet or like an insult and turning it on its head. Like like queer or like the word Christian did in in the 1st century AD. So so yeah, this is This is why I like the word Luddite.

JEREMY: That that's interesting. The about turning the word upside down. Interestingly enough, capitalism was originally a. A bad term to describe what it was. It was used as. A negative sense. People embrace it because they're stupid.

Speaker ?: But I mean I gotta give you.

JEREMY: Both props because you're making me want to reexamine something that I've kind of. Kind of brushed off a long time ago and and reexamined new new ideas of thought that I haven't examined before, so, you know, thank you for that cause. Honestly, I love challenging myself on on everything.

JACOBI: Cool. Well, I hope you keep up with the project where our our our online magazine FC Journal is at the journal DOT Link and feel free to like pay attention to submissions. We've got submissions from an author who was published in the New York Times blog Opinionator, a friend of Arnie messes. I think that's how you pronounce his last name. There, all of these people are or in the coming weeks, we're gonna be publishing submissions from them, and there's really going to be a conversation going on about these ideas and this new orientation for primitivism that we wanna we wanna propose.

JEREMY: Well, both of you. How can people follow your work and get in contact with you if they choose?

ATTICUS: Yeah, you can go ahead if. You want. No, I.

JACOBI: Would go ahead so.

ATTICUS: I was just gonna say yeah, go to the FC Journal blog and you can also find us at our website. You can just Google NCFC UNC Freedom Club and. Yeah. And our e-mail is all on there.

JACOBI: Yeah, we have our e-mail is and our website and our Facebook is Freedom Club.

JEREMY: That's a lot of technology.

Speaker ?: It is.

JEREMY: I had to be. The ***** ***. But for reals, I've thoroughly enjoyed this. Thank you guys a lot. We end every episode saying **** **** damn with both of you mind saying that?

JACOBI: **** ****. Damn. ****. ****. Damn.

Speaker ?: Thank you guys very much. So what?

ATTICUS: Thank you. Have a good one.

JORDAN: It's good to have you too. See ya. Bye.

Speaker ?: This week, you.

JORDAN: Heard fisticuffs at dawn by little people.

Speaker ?: Right now you're listening to.

JORDAN: Tail of a scorched earth by obscurus advocay.

Speaker ?: This is the gift giving season.

JEREMY: Because I don't know. I mean, I think. The furthest it goes back is.

JORDAN: Because of the God.

JEREMY: Saturn but anyways, this is the gift giving season and if you want to give us a gift and you don't want to spend any money because really who the **** wants to spend money? We need more ratings and reviews on iTunes.

JORDAN: Yeah, it really helps us out. It helps boost our search ranking up so that more people can find us. It's just a nice thing to.

Speaker ?: Do and it doesn't cost you. Anything and you can honestly.

JEREMY: Be honest on your review.

JORDAN: Only 0.0001% of the people that listen have rated and reviewed us, so if you haven't gone and done.

Speaker ?: Just ******* do it.

JORDAN: Don't be a jerk.

JEREMY: And if you have. Done it. Still someone else's device phone, computer and go do it doesn't cost them anything. Doesn't cost you anything and it just helps us out. And it's like giving us an Internet hug.

JORDAN: And if you do have somebody else's device, you might as well subscribe them while you're at. Help each other out, man. That's what we're all about here. If you do feel like spending money on a gift for us, you can always go to our wish list and cheque out the things that we have added for the collective and the podcast. We do also do social things. We're kind of social. So you know, if you're not friends with us, go to, click on the social tab. Be our friends, we post a lot of stuff on there that we don't talk about on the show, so be our friends like us.

JEREMY: Well, you know, I will catch you guys all in 2015 ***** it. Damn.

Speaker 1: Damn, we need a social media in turn to join our team. If interested in becoming activist famous or a Level 5 vegan hit us up on social media, which site podcast is hosted and produced by Jordan Halliday and Jeremy Park in of the which side Media collective with web design by Jordan Halliday? And sound designed by Jeremy Parkin booking by Mari Halliday, theme music by Commandante go to to cheque out the other shows in the cold. As always, folks shut down.