The Story of Lindsay Souvannarath
Lindsay Souvannarath and the Halifax Shopping Center Shooting Plot
In 2015, on the eve of Valentine's day, the people of Halifax would learn they aren’t exempt from the type of nightmares that play out on American news stations.
A local 19 year old James Gamble and his girlfriend, 23 year old American Lindsay Souvannarath, had taken the first steps in a plot to shoot and kill as many people as possible in the Halifax Shopping Centre food court before taking their own lives, just like the other murderous pair they idolized… the Columbine shooters.
In this ongoing series Nighttime conducts an extensive interview with the now incarcerated Lindsay Souvannarath and explores the stranger than fiction story of the Halifax Shopping Center Shooting Plot.
1. The Halifax Shopping Center Shooting Plot
JORDAN: It seems as though every day we have a new example of someone or someone whose internal conflict culminates in a violent attack on members of the public.
In fact, it's these stories that make me uneasy in crowded places.
The feeling that only gets worse with each suicide bombing, school shooting, or like we saw in Toronto recently, Cuvat intentionally mowing down unsuspecting pedestrians.
When I was a kid, and even as a teenager, these now common events seemed unheard of.
Certainly nothing I ever would have been concerned about.
And then two high school kids in Colorado changed that.
If memory serves me, I was home from school, sick with the flu, the day Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold took weapons in pipe bombs into Columbine High School and began killing fellow students and faculty.
Like so many others, I spent the entirety of that day glued to CNN, stunned at the sight of kids just like me.
Being rushed out of their high school by SWAT teams as other less fortunate students lay bleeding to death around them, the entire thing was just too horrific to be real.
But as horrible as that was, Columbine seemed to only be to start massacres like the one carried out in the halls of that high school have become our societies, or reoccurring nightmare.
33 were gunned down at Virginia Tech, 28 killed at Sandy Hook, most of them young children. 50 in Orlando.
Nightclub and 59 at an outdoor concert in Vegas. And these are just the first ones that come to mind.
The tip of a tragic iceberg?
There are far too many to list in any comprehensive way, let alone try to understand them.
They appear as varied as they are vague.
And the perpetrators, well, they usually come across some sort of homicidal puzzle to be solved, but the events themselves?
To think of them even having happened is terrifying.
To deal with it, I've always resorted to the same naive thought process that.
Many of you listening can probably relate to.
I've taken comfort in the ignorant belief that things like that wouldn't happen around here.
But regardless if you're talking about my here or yours, here is exactly where these things happen.
In 2015, on the eve of Valentine's Day, I and the rest of Halifax citizens would realize that we aren't exempt from the type of nightmares that play out on American news stations.
NEWS READER: One of the largest and busiest malls in Atlantic Canada was almost the.
Scene of a.
Horrifying shooting spree Saturday.
Police believe Nova Scotia residents James Gamble and Randy Shepherd as well as American Lindsay Savannah wrath.
Were going to shoot as many people as possible before taking their.
Own lives on Valentine's Day.
NEWS INTERVIEW: This appeared to be a group of murderous misfits that were coming here or we're living here and prepared to wreak havoc and mayhem on our community.
We have averted a true tragedy here in Halifax.
NEWS READER: Shepard and Savannah Rath were arrested at the airport moments after her plane landed and mere hours before the plan was to be executed.
The only reason it didn't happen was because of an anonymous tip to police just hours.
JORDAN: As the news broke of the conspiracy to commit a mass shooting on Valentine's Day at the Halifax Shopping Center, I was quite simply stunned.
That actually hit me quite hard, and not only because something so horrible almost happened in my city, but the target was a place I spend a lot of time at, in fact.
If things had gone according to the conspirators plans, there was a pretty good chance I would have been there that day and I likely would have had my son with me.
Now, at first probably in search of some comfort, I hoped it to be a misunderstanding or an exaggeration, something in the same league as a bomb threat used to get high schoolers out of an afternoon of classes.
But with every update to the story, it only became more serious and more frightening.
As hard as it was to digest, I couldn't help but.
Pore over every detail I could find, this story, the conspiracy, the players involved.
I wanted to know everything.
After all, they were planning to shoot and kill as many people as possible at a place I frequented.
This was very much to be an attack on me, my family, and other people, just like.
Now the story that would come out was that a local 19 year old named James Gamble had formed an online relationship with 23 year old Lindsay, Savannah Roth, and American from Illinois.
After bonding over a shared interest bordering on an obsession with the Columbine massacre, the pair decided to commit mass murder.
Together and end their lives in each other's company, much like the Columbine shooters did.
But as you've heard in the prior news clip Lindsay and James, this plan, unlike the Columbine shooters, would be foiled with little time to spare.
It all happened on February 13th.
An anonymous call came to the Crime Stoppers hotline and informed authorities that a woman with the first name Lindsay and the last initial.
S would be coming to Halifax from the United States with the goal of committing mass murder in the Halifax Shopping Center Food Court shortly after the tip came in.
Almost on cue, a young woman had approached the airport's border security desk after arriving to Halifax via A1 way ticket from Chicago.
This woman had little money next to no luggage and appeared uneasy.
When questioned about her reasons for visiting Halifax, she simply stated I'm here to spend a memorable Valentine's Day with my boyfriend.
Now, it's impossible to say so for sure, but I can't help but feel like lives were saved when the border agents and local police connected the dots and realized that the Lindsay Souvannarith being questioned at the airport was the Lindsay S from the Crime Stoppers.
Tip and from here things moved fast.
Lindsay would be detained at the airport, along with a third conspirator, a close friend of James named Randall Shepherd, who was arrested as he arrived to the airport to pick Lindsey up next.
Police surrounded the family home of the young man.
Lindsay planned to kill and die with her Co conspirator and boyfriend.
19 year old James Gamble but as it would turn out, James his life would be the only one lost during this massacre.
As police closed in on him, his young life would meet its end with a single self-inflicted gunshot.
Leaving his girlfriend Lindsay and best friend Randall to face Canada's justice system.
It was during these court proceedings that the individual roles of each conspirator would become public knowledge.
NEWS READER: Randall Shepard appeared in Nova Scotia Supreme Court on Tuesday morning and pleaded guilty to conspiracy to commit murder.
He was one of three people involved in the planning of a mass shooting at the Halifax Shopping Center.
NEWS INTERVIEW: Well, I think.
By Mr Shepherd's acceptance of responsibility in the conspiracy, it's an indication that the plan was meant.
To be serious and taken seriously and we believe likely to occur.
NEWS READER: In court, the Crown stated the masterminds behind the situation where the now deceased James Gamble and Lindsey Savannah Wrath of Illinois while Shepard took on the role of cheerleader.
In agreed statement of fact shows that Shepard was planning on killing himself the day before the massacre was set to take place in a Facebook exchange on February 9th.
Gamble asked Shepard.
Is there nothing I could say to convince you to join me with my plan?
To which Shepard replied.
Sorry James, the answer is no.
If I had more time to mentally prepare myself, perhaps.
But I am going to die.
I'm not going to hurt.
And while Shepard didn't actually plan to kill anyone himself, he did facilitate the conspiracy.
By picking up supplies and assisting with the planning, Lindsey Savannah Raff still faces a number of charges, chiefly conspiracy to commit murder.
She is scheduled to stand trial in May of next year.
JORDAN: More details of the story would slowly surface over the course of the trials against Randall and Lindsey Sovannara, most significant of which were the excerpts of messages from the logs of the trio Facebook chats where the majority of this planning occurred.
But despite what was being revealed in the various court appearances, the story was far from over.
There were just too many unanswered questions, chief among them why Halifax, why the food court at the shopping center, and why Valentine's Day.
Now, despite the public inquisition the press lead on the trio, Little More was revealed than a complicated digital footprint and a collage of hearsay from past friends and classmates James and Randall.
They both left rather morbid bread crumbs across the Internet that serve as snapshots of their worldviews leading up to the attack.
But everyone who knew them seemed to say they were great guys.
So what happened?
And then there was the mystery woman from Illinois, the enigmatic Lindsay Souvannarith.
A female mass murderer would be incredibly rare, but as anyone following this story would learn, nearly everything about Lindsey Savannah Roth is rare.
Just like her Co conspirators, Lindsey had left it a stir Bing footprint across the Internet that included considerable amounts of Columbine related content.
A collection of surprisingly impressive.
Short stories and a tremendous amount of material that featured her ideological views.
Seed Lindsey did and does identify as a neo-Nazi, a surprising system of belief for someone with features and a surname that suggest an Asian heritage.
Now, For these reasons and more that this leak featured, American would become both the media space for this crime and one of the most unwelcome guests to ever visit Halifax.
But as much attention as Lindsey received from the national press, her motivations were less purely to speculation.
She wasn't talking.
Aside from a handful of yeses and noes required in the courtroom, she nor her parents have spoken a word about this publicly.
But that and what people know about Lindsey souvenir off are about to change.
See, this episode is simply an introduction to this series, as three years after boarding flight to Halifax with ambitions to kill as many people as possible, Lindsey Savannah Roth is now willing to share the story of her life.
Role in the.
Valentine's Day shooting plot and so much more and she'll be telling her story.
To me, he ran.
Night time the discussions with Lindsey will begin on the next episode, but I wanted to use this as a time to introduce the background in the case and to lay the framework for what you should expect in the following three episodes.
And my conversations with Lindsay are long, detailed, and certainly not for the faint of heart.
Some of you will be.
Sickened by the things she says, others will be surprised to hear the calm and direct approach she takes when describing many of our worst nightmares.
But ultimately, my conversations with Lindsey will provide an unprecedented view into the mind of mass murder.
But before you decide if you want to join Lindsey and I in this series, I want to be clear.
In the past, nighttime has welcomed guests who brought some controversial baggage onto the show with them, but never anything like this.
During the series, references will be made to Neo Nazism, mass murder, and self harm.
If these topics are triggers for you, either sit this one out or proceed with caution.
The series will begin on February 11th.
With the story.
Of Lindsey Souvannarith life before choosing death I.
Hope many of you.
Will join me for what's sure to be a strange ride.
LINDSAY: If things had gone according to plan, February 14th, 2015 would have been the day I died. I would have died alongside my boyfriend, James Gamble, after having murdered perhaps 13 people in the food Court of the Halifax Shopping Centre.
JORDAN: The facts of this case are well known. There were conversations. On Facebook postings on Tumblr, some weapons in a plan.
But what puzzles everyone is why.
Some mass murders are pretty cut and dry.
A disgruntled ex employee shoots up his former workplace or white supremacist attacks synagogues.
Others are more complex, but my own motives are a complete mystery to most.
We don't have a pithy narrative prepared for when a young female college graduates, meets a stranger online and agrees to fly to another country to open fire on a shopping mall.
She'd never set foot in before by Canada.
Why a shopping mall?
Why random strangers that have no connection to myself?
And with that we'll conclude this episode of night time.
2. Life Before Choosing Death
JORDAN: Welcome back to an ongoing series exploring the life in crime of Lindsay souvenir off, the young woman convicted of conspiracy to commit murder as a result of her role in the failed Halifax Shopping Center Valentine's Day massacre.
In the first part of this series, I provided a basic introduction to the events in people associated with the failed mass shooting plot.
To remind you with a few words, a local young man named James Gamble met 23 year old Lindsay Savannah Roth Online. The two formed a relationship after bonding.
Over a shared interest in the column bunch.
Shortly after meeting, the pair began to plan their own shooting spree and chose the Halifax Shopping Center Food Court as their venue in February 14th, Valentine's Day, as the date.
The result of the deadly attack in whatever carnage may have followed would only be known by the many Halifax residents who were left to speculate.
What if, as it turned out, an anonymous tip would derail the attack?
Only hours before it was set to begin, Lindsay Savannah Roth was arrested at the airport.
After arriving to Halifax from Chicago via one waiting.
Yet another conspirator named Randall Shepherd was arrested as he arrived to the airport to pick up the incoming American and James Gamble he would take his.
Own life as police.
Closed in on his Halifax area home.
But despite the death of 1 and a rest of the two other conspirators, the public attention this plot received was not swayed.
Far from it.
In fact, the public would become captivated by the case not only because of the thoughts of what if?
But like too many other acts of violence against the public, people wanted to know why.
With even cursory research into the three conspirators lives, it's immediately apparent they came from very dark places.
All three left behind digital footprints that displayed an obsession with violence, as well as postings that crossed whatever line exists between glorifying and celebrating the Columbine massacre.
But among the three, Lindsay Savannah Roth seemed to be even more complicated.
The disturbing shadow she cast across the Internet added another disturbing element to the violence and hatred.
Lindsey writings, artwork and message board activities heavily featured her beliefs and Nazism.
It's not any surprise why the sleek featured Columbine obsessed Nazi with murderous ambitions became a fixture on the Evening News.
Lindsay Souvannarith is not unlike a villain from.
A Batman movie.
Except this one would be far too dark to ever make it to film.
Most of us will have lived a life without ever encountering someone like Lindsay Savannah Roth.
Many of us, had it not been for this story, would have trouble even believing there are people with these interests living among us.
The public was and is still puzzled by the mystery of how an educated young woman from a middle class family in suburban Illinois could take a path through life that would lead to her adopting what the overwhelming majority feel is disturbing anti social beliefs.
But the path Lindsay's life took in the factors that lead in this direction have remained as obscured as her motives in the mass shooting plot.
See, Lindsay Souvannarith was not talking.
In fact, since she boarded a plane to Halifax with a goal of killing and dying, Lindsay hasn't spoken a word publicly, but that's about to change.
Lindsay is now ready to tell her story on apologetically and straight.
During this series, she won't only tell us why she did the things she did, but also she'll explain how her life brought her to this point.
And that's where we're going to start with a discussion that aims to identify the moments in her life that brought her here.
In this episode of night Time, our focus will be on the life.
Lindsay Savannah Roth LED.
Before she chose death.
LINDSAY: My name is Lindsay Savannah rock.
I was one of three conspirators in a mass murder plot to attack the Halifax Shopping Centre.
But the press.
Called the Valentine's Day massacre.
So this massacre was never carried out.
I was given a life sentence for conspiracy to commit murder.
JORDAN: When I connect it with Lindsay.
I'm not sure what I was expecting.
Given what I had read about her.
I suppose I assumed to have my questions met with aggression and intensity, but as you'll hear, she's actually mild mannered, well spoken, and if he didn't consider the things she was saying, she's surprisingly quite pleasant to talk with.
Now, after making our introductions to each other and spending a bit of time adjusting the recording equipment in such a way to compensate for the poor quality of the prison phone system, Lindsay and I began plans to share her story.
In short, we'd agreed to simply talk person to.
Of course, many of the things she expressed go against my deeply held beliefs concerning equality, personal freedoms and quite simply not killing other people.
This wasn't going to be about challenging her beliefs.
What would be the point in that?
I simply wanted to try and understand what would lead a young, intelligent woman.
To travel across the continent to murder people she'd never met in the Food court of a mall she'd never stepped foot in.
So with that as my mantra, I poured a large cup of coffee and began a conversation with Halifax is Public Enemy number one.
Our talk will begin at the very beginning with a short discussion surrounding Lindsay childhood.
LINDSAY: I was born in Chicago.
To a family like any other.
My mother and father were still together, and I had two older siblings, both from my mother's previous marriage.
When I was eight years old, we moved to Geneva, IL, a suburb.
I had a normal childhood.
We had trips to Disney World, family vacations, things like that, and there really wasn't much of anything to indicate that I would go down the path.
But I rarely went down.
There wasn't any trauma, there wasn't any abuse, nothing like that it.
Was just me.
And my family and we all loved each other very.
JORDAN: Much what kind of interests did you have as a kid?
What did you do to pass your time?
LINDSAY: Well, I was really into computers growing up.
See, my father, he was a computer programmer.
He still is, and he taught me how to use the computer.
I think I learned to type even before I learned to write by hand, so that was something that was always with me and I enjoyed playing different computer games.
I also really enjoyed reading and writing.
And I also had my friends and we would play pretend and do things that like like normal kids would do.
JORDAN: Hearing Lindsay described a pleasant childhood surprised me somewhat, especially so hearing her positive references to childhood friends.
The image of Lindsay presented by those reporting her crime was.
That of a.
Complete loner, one who seemingly abandoned society in favor of the solitude of online message boards devoted to Nazi beliefs and Columbine.
To try and understand when and how her friendships moved from neighborhood playgrounds to the darkest corners of.
The Internet, we.
Continued our discussions surrounding the evolution of Lindsay social life.
LINDSAY: Well, while we lived in Chicago, I guess this would be around 1st and 2nd grade.
I actually was very social.
I was one of the most popular kids in my class, mainly because I was.
I was singled out by the teacher as being like one of the smartest kids there was there, and so I enjoyed a lot of friends I.
I went to a lot of parties as well, but then when I moved to Geneva things started to change.
I had to start all over again.
I it's always hard being the new kid and I guess I didn't adjust that well.
From then on, I always kept the circle of friends, but it was always small.
I was very loyal to them and I enjoyed very close friendships with with whoever I chose to.
Hang out with.
JORDAN: OK, and as you got older I'm guessing your kind of connection with people is... is that when it kind of began began to change to you moving kind of your friendships to people you met online?
Like can you just kind of talk a bit about when you started to find a social circle with people on the Internet as opposed to finding them in, you know, your high school or whatnot.
LINDSAY: I would say that it started around high school when I started posting my writing and art online and gaining an audience for them.
I just found it more convenient, a lot easier to to connect with more like minded people online as opposed to real life.
Or you're not really sure if the people you're meeting really have anything in common with you.
It was just a matter of efficiency.
I'm a very efficient person.
I don't like to waste time with small talk and things like that, so I prefer to just like.
Get it out of the way.
And like any online format.
Is a great way to dispose of all that stuff.
It was just a matter of efficiency for me.
I considered this to be the best way of making friends that I knew would actually have things in common with me, and not just because they shared a class with me or whatever.
JORDAN: That early, like these early writings and artwork that you were posting initially that you know started to gain an audience.
What kind of stuff was that?
Like, what were you writing and what kind of art was it?
Could you just describe it a bit?
LINDSAY: I kind of dabbled in a lot of different things, their very first writings that started gaining an audience online.
We're actually like more fantasy oriented and I started writing these.
These song lyrics, these poems kind of and and they all kind of like connected with each other.
And I started drawing those characters and those are the pieces that like started gaining attention.
And then I started moving towards, I don't know, more horror and science fiction later on.
JORDAN: Was that always something like the the creative writing that was always a a passion and something you were you?
Know good at.
LINDSAY: Oh yes, certainly.
It was something I've been doing since, I don't know, pretty early on in childhood.
I always enjoyed like coming up with stories and and just writing them out for other people to enjoy.
Teachers always told me that I had a talent for writing and I and it was just something that I wanted to pursue.
JORDAN: You're well known for your creepypastas and whatnot, which are extremely dark.
Likewise, you're always you're writing always on the dark side.
LINDSAY: Not always.
When I was first beginning to write, I started writing things that, you know, normal kids would write things related to, you know, I don't know, maybe Harry Potter or Neopets, something that kids would enjoy things inspired by the cartoons that I liked.
But as I grew older, I started to sort of embrace this sort of.
Violence and darkness, it it just started being something that.
That crept into my writing as I grew older.
JORDAN: As I had mentioned in the introduction to this episode, I had done a considerable amount of research into the lives Lindsey and her two Co conspirators LED.
I was more than well aware of Lindsey skills and successes, says a.
Short story writer.
In fact, many of Lindsey stories credit to a past online handle she used.
Are still being shared across the Internet in various formats by people who seemingly have no idea of the notoriety found by the actual author.
If you want to get a sense of her writing, her best known piece is likely the whimsical children story, named my pet skelet.
But for me, the story that stuck out the most was one called calm resurrection.
In this story, Lindsay writes in graphic detail about a man who happens upon the victim of a suicide and falls in love despite the condition of the.
Body, but again to warn you.
Much like many aspects of Lindsay's life.
Her writing is not for the even remotely sensitive, so again, getting back to it, I was already well aware of her history as a writer, so I wanted to learn more about what she was doing besides imagining these disturbing stories and playing video games.
What other things were you doing with your with yourself in your time outside of kind of writing?
Like maybe if you could talk about kind of what interests you had in high school aside from the online stuff?
LINDSAY: Well, I also.
Enjoyed a lot of computer games and things.
Like that the.
High school I went to eventually had.
An RPG club where you would go and play these pen and paper role-playing games like Dungeons and Dragons. And I had some fun doing that. I was also, I was also part of the whole.
Old drama scene for a little while.
I was even in a school play at one point.
JORDAN: And the that RPG club you mentioned just since you brought that up that's been, there's been some press coverage of I think probably you and that RPG club writing characters that had like the I think the nightmare Nazi is that when when this happened.
LINDSAY: Well, that's not actually true at all.
Nightmare Nazi was just a drawing I had.
I never attempted to role play as him.
JORDAN: Oh wow.
That's become like, that's been written in a lot of different papers and articles about you.
What makes you like, why do you think that that kind of took on a life like it did?
LINDSAY: I don't know, just.
Maybe people misremember things.
There are different memories that may kind of jumble together, and I guess that became a story.
JORDAN: Of all the stuff you read about about your life and your crime, do you feel like the the version of Lindsey souvenir off that's been told in the press?
Is that accurate as far as like who you are in, what happened or is there or is it quite a bit different?
LINDSAY: I don't know.
It's quite a bit different, especially in regards to what I was like in high school.
Like I remember like my former classmate going on about how I was obsessed with Nazis and everyone was creeped out.
No, no one was creeped out.
They just kind of accepted it.
As part of who I was.
JORDAN: Now, since the unpleasant but necessary to tackle topic of Neo Nazism came up, the time is right to get into Lindsay Nazi or National Socialist System of belief.
Going into this, I had planned to address this part of Lindsay's life, but still I couldn't help being caught off guard when she brought it.
Up so casually.
I think this is the first time in my life I've ever heard someone say anything like that.
But before I jump back into the conversation, I want to be completely honest about this.
This is a topic I know very little about, aside, of course, from a basic knowledge of World War Two and the atrocities associated with Hitler.
In fact, I don't even want to know anything about it.
My interest in this line of questioning wasn't about what exactly do you believe it's a Nazi.
I was more interested in how did you come to believe so strongly in Nazism?
Could you tell me about when you first started making connections online with people who were into?
The the National socialist stuff, like can you kind of, do you recall like kind of the first time or some of the first times you started connecting with these sorts of people and and if so, kind of what context did that happen in?
LINDSAY: Well, I believe it started on this one art website.
This, it was just, it just happened.
By chance, I came across this one painting and I was like, wow, that's a really cool painting.
And so I decided.
The comment like in comments on it and like talk to the artist a little.
The artists just happened to be a national socialist and I don't know.
Later on through him I started meeting more National Socialists and I just started networking with them and finding that I had a lot in.
Common with them it just.
It was just like out of nowhere it had like very.
Little chance of actually happening, but it did.
JORDAN: How old would?
You have been at this point, like when was this that that happened?
LINDSAY: I'm thinking maybe 16 years old or 17.
JORDAN: And when you first started kind of connecting with these people and talking and finding you had things in common, was it more so talking about like art and that sort of thing or we did you dive kind of rate into the ideological kind of side of?
LINDSAY: It well, at first we started talking about art and the different games that we liked.
And things like that.
But then I started reading more about the ideology and found I I found that it was a lot in alignment with things that I believe.
JORDAN: Something that often is discussed when talking about you and your crime as specifically when talking about your identity as a as a neo-Nazi or Nazi or national socialist or whatever the right the right word for it is, is I don't know your your ethnicity, but to look at you.
You're not that you don't look like a person.
I would expect to be to be a Nazi.
Like could you maybe tell me a bit about your ethnicity, but and then how that plays into your your views on race?
LINDSAY: My father is from Laos and my mother is an American of Eastern European descent, but I found I've always identified more strongly with the white half of my family than with the Asian half.
See, The thing is.
The way my family is, I have two older siblings from my mother's previous marriage. They're both white, so I grew up in this majority white family and I lived in majority white neighborhoods pretty much all my life.
And my father, he does.
He didn't really introduce me to much of Asian culture when I was growing up.
He didn't teach me the language he spoke or anything, so I've always, like, identified more strongly as being white than anything else because that's how I was raised.
JORDAN: And now where a lot of your your beliefs would kind of like somebody raised the way you are, it seems like your beliefs would tell you that that that's not OK or that that that's not a a good thing.
Do how does?
Your situation in your life kind of fit into the broader view of of your of your beliefs like is it?
Is it not contradictory?
LINDSAY: I don't really feel it's contradictory.
I mean, my beliefs, they come from a very strong sense of what is right and what is wrong in the world.
I am not in this to promote myself because that is not what politics is.
Or it is about how the world should work, not about what would benefit me.
JORDAN: So you kind of view your thoughts on race and it you're not seeing yourself as the center of the world.
You're kind of looking at the, you know, the bigger picture and not considering yourself.
At this point in the narrative, we're getting to know Lindsay Savannah Roth as she was during her high school years.
As we heard, a considerable amount of her time was spent on creative writing, but she was making some connections in dark circles and was taking some large steps in her evolution towards the complicated boogeyman that would begin to haunt.
Evening newscasts now.
Given what I'd known about the hateful direction Lindsay Life would ultimately take, I wanted to get into another topic before we moved on to her college years.
Was anger and violence a part of her life?
Of course, outside of her creative works?
Given what you're known for today, and you know that you're in prison in a life sentence, have you ever found yourself in trouble before?
Like, did you have a criminal record before this or any type of trouble with the law before all this happened?
LINDSAY: No, no, not at all.
JORDAN: What about violence?
Like did you have in your history ever?
Like if somebody knew like your life story, would there be things that they could look back at and be like see, like this is this is what proved she had violent tendencies?
Like was there?
Anything you can think of a time where you lost your temper and lashed out or or something that people would look back at as a red flag that you had a violent, violent violence in your future.
LINDSAY: I don't know.
As a child, I had a tendency to lash out physically if I don't know.
Someone was behaving in a way that I didn't like, but I grew out of it.
By the time that I was in, I don't know, 7th grade or something like that, but so I don't know.
For a long time it was just me not mostly keeping myself, not harming anyone really.
JORDAN: What about like throughout your life, like your your temper and your kind of attitude towards other people?
Like if somebody met you, would they think like that is an angry pist off Nazi or or do you kind of keep your emotions kind of in check in person?
LINDSAY: I actually am very good at regulating my emotions most of the time.
The thing is, when people think of me, they they might remember my emotional outbursts more than they remember.
Like all the times when I stayed quiet, when I maybe should have said something.
JORDAN: Lindsay story, as told by the press, often referenced being a recent graduate of a respected College in Iowa.
After a short break, Lindsay will tell us about how an unapologetic young Nazi with a propensity to express herself using graphic depictions of violence interacts with students and faculty.
Of a liberal arts college associated with the Presbyterian Church.
And of course, we'll hear how Lindsay became a member of the strange subculture known as column Biners.
How's that for a set up?
We're going to pick up the story of Lindsay Savannah Roth from a point just after her graduation from high school and follow her through a period of her life that sees the next stage in her evolution towards the.
Young woman who would be arrested at the Halifax airport on the eve of Valentine's Day.
Much like many of us after high school, Lindsay looked out into the mist that obscures the many routes we can follow through life.
At this point, the most appealing step was to continue her education with a focus on creative writing, something she'd already excelled at.
But as you can imagine, Lindsay beliefs and Nazism led to some friction among the other young philosophers and faculty at the liberal Arts College.
LINDSAY: Well, I went to Coe College, which is actually a liberal arts college, and it's in Iowa.
And I majored in English and creative writing.
I mostly went there for the creative writing major, but but when you take the creative writing major, you will have to take something else with it.
So I thought English would be the natural thing to do.
JORDAN: You're at this point you had already developed your National socialist beliefs and that was a part of who you are.
But did that ever kind of pop its head up in your, you know, creative writing or whatnot?
I'm just thinking at a liberal arts college, being a national socialist and having those beliefs, that must have caused some friction.
How did how did your your students?
And professors react to this.
LINDSAY: While at one point in my creative writing classes I decided to write these National Socialist inspired stories about about this, some about this guy named about this guy named Foster Cron who becomes an emperor and and I like kind of peppered it with like national socialist themes.
And I tried to and I kind of like tried to illuminate some of the things that I believed, and this caused quite a bit of controversy in when it was time to workshop my 6.
Did like people like talked a lot about, like whether they agreed with the beliefs in in the story rather than like how well I expressed them.
And at one point I was.
I was even asked to talk to the Dean of students there, and I at first I was afraid, thinking, Oh no, I must be in trouble.
But I it turns out I wasn't.
He was actually concerned for me.
He was just worried that other students might end up harassing me for my beliefs.
And he was actually pretty open minded about it.
But later on.
One of my professors actually called me into his office to ask me if I was a Holocaust denier.
And I completely flubbed my answers because that question just threw me so much I did not know what to say.
And looking back I thought, OK, that was that was kind of strange.
And in a political science class, when?
When the professor asked us how many of us did not believe in democracy, I was one of two students who raised my hand and she asked me what I did believe in.
And I said quite bluntly, I am a.
National Socialist and she said had something to the effect of that.
It was the first time she'd ever had a Nazi in one of her classes, and that was about.
JORDAN: Wow, did you finish your schooling there and with like a diploma or degree or something and and if so, kind of what was at this point in your life, what was your plans as what you were going to do next after?
You finish that school.
LINDSAY: Well, I got my degree in English and creative writing and I didn't really have much of a solid plan.
I was originally thinking of maybe going to Asia to teach English.
Because when I went to Asia as part of a study abroad semester, I we spent a day teaching some Cambodian kids English, and I had a lot of fun doing that, so I thought maybe that's something I might want to do.
So one of the things I did was apply to the peace core.
I didn't get in, of course, but by then, like James and I were already planning.
Things, so it was pretty much a moot point by.
JORDAN: Then when you were done school, considering maybe going overseas, what was happening in your life?
Like, were you working or living with your parents?
Can you just kind of describe what your life was?
Like in the time leading up to meeting James and this plan happening.
LINDSAY: Now I was just living with my parents.
I didn't really have any solid career plans and really had no interest in creating them, but I was hoping to maybe finish the novel that I was working on and get it published.
JORDAN: What was that novel?
LINDSAY: Oh, it was something that I had been working on since my freshman year of college.
It was about this boy who falls in love with death.
JORDAN: What do you?
What's the name of it?
Did you title it the?
LINDSAY: Title of it was if a skull could blush.
JORDAN: It did you.
Whatever happened to it?
I've never heard of this piece of this book.
LINDSAY: Probably with some saved on my laptop and on Google Drive I was working on it for a while and then I don't know.
Since I no longer have access to my computer to the Internet, I'm not able to work on it at the present time.
JORDAN: So you were living with your parents, working on this novel.
Considering you're getting published, you weren't working an actual job.
Maybe considering going overseas?
What else are you doing to pass the time at this point in your life?
Like what would a normal day look like for Lindsay Savannah Roth?
LINDSAY: Well, a lot of the time I would just stay up all night on my favorite websites and then like pass out and maybe 10 in the morning or something like that wake up and I don't know.
So 3:00 o'clock in the.
And then and then I don't.
Know the next day I would have a completely different sleep cycle.
It was a very strange way to live.
JORDAN: When considering Lindsay's life in the context of her role as a would be mass murderer, this period of time, the strange way to live that Lindsay just described seems to be among the most critical parts.
Living with her parents with unclear next steps in life, and staying up all hours the night and day on her computer, this turned out to be the breeding ground for the final stages of Lindsay Evolution.
It's at this point that her interests or obsessions with Columbine would begin as well as she would meet James Gamble, and the two, of course, would begin planning.
Their Valentine's Day massacre.
We'll go through these events one at a time, as oddly, this all fits together in such a simple but dangerous way.
I'm going to start with Lindsey's association with the Columbine are subculture. I'm not going to go into this in much detail, but since this is likely a lifestyle that not everyone listening was aware of.
Let me give this some context.
Most of us are familiar with the Columbine massacre, which was a horrific school shooting in which two high school students, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, opened fire on students and faculty, killing 13 people and injuring many others before taking their own lives as police closed in.
This event it struck fear into the lives of 1,000,000, but some author had a very different reaction.
There are legions of people around the world who celebrate the event and look at the perpetrators, Eric and Dylan as sort of horrific folk idols.
These people who typically connect with each other on various.
Websites and message boards are known, quite simply, as column biners.
So how did Lindsay, souvenir of the Co college graduate with Nazi ideologies, become a member of this almost too bizarre to be true community?
Well, remember how Lindsay described spending her time throughout college working on a novel called If a skull could blush?
In this period of irregular sleep and no direction, Lindsay would decide to refocus more of her energy on completing that book, and she felt it needed a new plot device.
It needed a school shooting.
But before we hear Lindsay described this, I want to give another warning.
Up until now, the conversation with Lindsey has been fairly tame.
However, we're about to get into Lindsay's feelings about mass shootings, and they're likely a lot different than yours or mine.
Can you just tell me about your history of interest with school shootings, Columbine and in that culture?
LINDSAY: When I first heard of the Columbine shooting, it was when it happened back in 1999. I would have been only seven years old in first grade, I think.
Maybe second grade, I don't know.
But anyway, I heard of it pretty early on in my life and.
It was just something that kind of stayed with me.
I didn't really have an active interest in it, though until I was in college.
I was right.
I was working on my novel about the boy who falls in love with death, and I thought once he's a teenager, it would make sense if there was a school shooting at some point in this novel.
And so I started researching school shootings.
And I looked up the Columbine shooting and started reading more about that and.
It again, it was all just academic at first, but then I just found myself more and more identifying with the shooters and what they believed in and things like that.
JORDAN: What about because the shooters are Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, the Columbine shooters?
What about them?
Did you connect with her or did you relate to the most?
Like, was there something about their life that you saw in your own?
LINDSAY: Some of the things that Eric wrote in his journal just reminded me of things that I used to believe in when I was younger.
I basically see myself as a more refined version of Eric Harris, just someone who who like has the same sort of motivations.
But he has LP it's a bit more refined, more sophisticated 'cause.
I have had.
Like more opportunity to do research on ideology and those sorts of things.
JORDAN: Do you recall a point where it kind of turned over from, you know, I'm researching it.
I'm kind of interested and kind of relate to these people a bit to when it turned over from that to getting the point where it was, you know, became a part of your almost your identity 'cause you were, you know, blogging about it and featuring Columbine related imagery.
And the artwork you were making?
Can you kind of maybe explain when it went even even further to becoming, you know, more so?
A part of your life.
LINDSAY: Just when I started posting in the Columbine tag and kind of networking with the other people who posted there, I just.
I just made so many friends there that I felt I had a lot in common with.
And we all like connected with this one thing.
And there were other things too, but it just became very significant for me.
JORDAN: And which you identify as like a Columbine are.
LINDSAY: Back then, yeah.
But now since I don't have access to my blog, I can't really, really do any more Columbine research or make any more Columbine memes.
So I'm kind of stuck.
JORDAN: Yeah, a lot of people who are going to be listening to this won't know the idea of a Columbine are.
And even people who get the idea of it maybe don't realize how many people are out there that are so interested in it.
Can you just tell me a bit about that kind of lifestyle because, again, a lot of people aren't going to be familiar with this.
LINDSAY: One thing that people should know is that, not.
All combiners are the same.
Some people just have a more casual interest in Columbine, and some people are into researching it as a way of preventing more mass shootings in the future.
Other people generally feel so very sorry for the shooters and what they went through in life, and they wish that nobody would.
Have to go through the same.
I think others are more supportive of their crime and others just have a general interest in true crime.
It's just different for everybody.
But I found myself being more supportive of the crime, of course.
And started like talking to people who kind of believe the same thing.
And we all just kind of.
Found ourselves in support of mass shootings in general.
JORDAN: And that it's going to sound unusual for people to hear someone someone say that.
What about the idea of a mass shooting do you support?
Is it like the chaos it creates?
Or again, you talked about kind of the idea of stirring revolution.
What if you had to sum it up?
A mass shooting.
It is appealing to you.
LINDSAY: Well, the one thing that people should know is that a public massacre is very much an attack on the public itself.
Everything else is secondary.
It's about the sort of attack on the common people.
Not an open attack on ones enemies, but on the people.
Who just sort of blindly support them?
People who are complacent people who.
Well, some people like to call them sheeple.
And it's really about just.
It's purifying the world from those who really have not much to.
Contribute to it.
JORDAN: When you hear of a victim of a crime or victims of a mass shooting, although I understand that you you see it as a like a greater good being created, but inside your your hierarchy or so like.
Do you feel?
Sorry for people who lose their lives or in our like affected on an individual basis.
LINDSAY: I really don't feel empathy for them.
See, The thing is.
When you have the mentality of a mass shooter, you don't really see these people as individuals, you just see them as parts of a whole.
When you have this sort of mentality, you pretty much see the world as a giant chess board where there are pawns that can be sacrificed in the name of something greater.
A lot of these people really, really.
I mean, what?
What do they really have to contribute other than equally unimpressive children?
That's that's really all it is.
JORDAN: That last quote you heard is hard not to react to.
So if you need to pause the episode and take a moment to collect your thoughts, but if you're still with me I'll keep going.
JORDAN: At this point, the building blocks used to form the would be mass shooter are almost all in place Lindsay and I are now speaking about.
Her interests and her life, as it was during her.
Last months of.
She's a college student with an uncertain future and an unwavering belief in Nazism.
And of course, she's making connections with others who occupy the more extreme end of the Columbine are subculture, the side that views the massacre in a positive light as an accomplishment?
Very soon, all these aspects.
Lindsay's life will find Harmony and a plot to kill and die in a Halifax shopping center.
The way I see it, the cliche analogy fits.
In this case, Lindsay is very much an open can of gasoline with highly combustible fumes just waiting for a spark.
But as fate will soon have it, Lindsay would meet a raging fire, just like how chance online connections would lead her to Nazism and the column Biners.
A chance encounter would soon connect Lindsay with another troubled person, one with similar interests in one who, just like Lindsay, has a mind in a similarly dark place.
It would happen via her blog, which is curiously titled **** Swastika.
Lindy will describe the blog shortly, but anyone who followed this case likely already sought after her arrest.
When this blog became connected to her, it was her postings and writings on Cox swastika that would give the public their first disturbing look into the mind of the would be mass shooter.
What this blog that that you were using, are you comfortable telling me the name and like what where it was or would you rather keep that private?
LINDSAY: The URL of it was 'cock swastika', and it was just me posting whatever random **** I could find.
Everything there, from political stuff to just humor to Columbine, just just pretty much everything that I enjoyed.
JORDAN: In that cock swastika that's kind of made it through a lot of the imagery associated with.
Your crime was?
That like a a name?
Like a a username you went by or something?
Or was that just the name you chose for your?
LINDSAY: Blog it was the name I chose for my blog I.
Didn't really use it on any other website.
JORDAN: With Lindsay Cox Swastika blog being a sort of disturbing signal she was transmitting into the ethers of cyberspace, she would soon get a subtle response, one that would lead to the last piece of Lindsay self-destructive puzzle falling into place. It's at this point.
That Lindsay would.
Cross the path of a fellow Columbine are.
19 year old James Gamble of the Halifax area.
LINDSAY: Well, what happened was I kind of, I kind of made this little meme, you know, there's this one blog called Justgirlythings and they just like, like, I don't know, post.
So it's really I think things are just seem really dumb to me and one of the things that they posted was like this image of of two girls and it says not being able to live without your best friend.
So I made a meme of that.
Like, like, I have that image and then below it is a picture of the Columbine shooters, and they're dead and so.
I posted that.
To my blog and.
I put it in the Columbine.
And James found me through that post and he started following me and I started following him after that and well, well after that we started getting connected on Facebook and stuff like that.
JORDAN: In what was and I think James was pretty active on the same set as a Blogger.
What kind of what was his blog called him?
And what kind of stuff was he posting?
LINDSAY: His blog was called Shallow Existences.
He obviously posted a lot of material related to Columbine.
He also posted things from the different horror movies he liked.
And once he started following me, he started posting stuff related to National Socialism as well.
JORDAN: He would have.
Seen this post due to the Columbine.
But do you remember how you first actually?
Make contact with each other like the first message, issue sent.
LINDSAY: Well, I kind of told my friends in my Skype group about him, and one of my friends on the Skype group, like, encouraged me to start chatting with him and I'm just like, OK, I'll give it a try.
And so I just sent a quick message to James saying I thought he was really cool and I don't know.
He he replied to that, and I eventually asked him like if he had any other any other uh.
Accounts online that I could message him on and he gave me his Facebook account.
JORDAN: With this episode being titled Life Before Choosing Death, This is the moment in Lindsay's life where we should stop.
Since we started tonight, we've heard how an above average kid from an above average family would form deeply held beliefs and Nazism develop a fondness for all things Columbine.
And of course, how she'd connect with a like minded young man from Canada named James Gamble.
In our next episode, part three in this series, our story will pick up right where we left off, with James and Lindsey beginning to send a series of Facebook messages that.
Would ultimately be used in.
Court to illustrate the horrors the.
Two had been planning to carry out.
LINDSAY: We originally began as just friends.
We were just chatting, finding out we had things in common, and.
Then we kind.
Of started planning to meet up in real life.
And the context of that meeting would be.
Some kind of mass shooting?
And after that, I don't know.
I just felt really strongly attracted to him.
I wasn't sure exactly what these feelings were.
I thought it was just, you know, adrenaline from planning a murder, but I'm certain to be so much more than that after we kind of got into the sexting and The Dirty images.
That people are always talking about in the press.
He just started acting like he was completely in love with me and at first I was just kind of going along with it, but then I just started feeling things for him too.
JORDAN: And with that, we will conclude this episode of night time.
JORDAN: * 3. Lindsay, James, and the Valentine's Day Massacre
Before we begin, a quick warning in the past night time has welcomed guests who brought with them some controversial baggage.
But this is different.
References will be made to Neo Nazism, mass murder, and self harm.
If these topics are triggers for you, either sit this one out or at least proceed with caution.
Now, I'd also like to make a short statement in response to some criticisms this series has received, specifically surrounding.
The idea of.
A platform being offered to a convicted criminal.
I would hope it's obvious for anyone who's listened, but this was something I considered carefully and controlled absolutely while working on the series.
To avoid any possible exploitation of the appearance on the show, a clear line was drawn between learning a boat and hopefully better understanding the events that surround the failed shooting plot.
And allowing this guest to share their ideological views or or anything that could even remotely resemble hate speech.
The excerpts from the interview that you'll hear were specifically chosen, and in some case edited, to ensure that that line was maintained and that any platform offered was used only for its intended purpose.
So again, use your own discretion and consider if this is something you want to hear.
This episode is much more disturbing than what's come so far.
Welcome back to an ongoing series exploring the life in the crime of Lindsay souvenir of the young woman convicted of conspiracy to commit murder and sentenced to life in prison as a result of her role in the foiled Halifax shopping Centre Valentine's Day shooting plot.
In the last entry in this series titled The Story.
Of Lindsay, soufan.
Roth, Part 2.
Life before choosing death, I used excerpts from a series of interviews I conducted with her via the prison telephone system to explore her life leading up to the time just prior to the beginnings of this plot over the course of that episode.
Lindsay shared many of the relatively mundane experiences that led to her evolution from a regular girl with a loving family into a Columbine obsessed college graduate with far right neo-Nazi beliefs that are about as disturbing as she is on apologetic about it.
Just as we left off in that episode, Lindsay had described the strange life she had been living just after graduating from liberal arts college and just prior to the birth of the horrific plot that would lead to her name being synonymous with hatred.
LINDSAY: I kind of made this little meme.
You know, there's this one blog called Justgirlythings and they just like.
So it's really, I don't think things are just seem really dumb to me and one of the things that they posted was like this image of of two girls and it says not being able to live without your best friend.
So I made a meme of that.
Like, like, I have that image and then below it is a picture of the Columbine shooters and they're dead.
I posted that to my blog and I.
Put it in the Columbine tag.
And James found me through that post, and he started following me and I started following him.
After that, his blog was called Shallow Existences.
He obviously posted a lot of material related to Columbine.
He also posted things from the different horror movies he liked, and so I just sent a quick message.
To James saying I thought he was really cool and I don't know he he replied to that and I eventually asked him like if he had any other accounts online that I could message him on and he gave me his Facebook account.
JORDAN: That young man who connected with Lindsey and one of the Internet 's many dark corners was of course, 19 year old James Gamble of Halifax.
That connection the pair made happened on December 21st and a little over six weeks James would be dead.
And Lindsey would be arrested while en route to Halifax to kill and die with him, but we'll get to that shortly.
We're going to pick up the story in this episode from the point of this fateful connection.
Tonight in this episode of night time, our focus will be on Lindsay, James and the Valentine's Day massacre.
NEWS INTERVIEW: This appeared to be a group of murderous misfits that were prepared to wreak havoc and mayhem on our community.
Mass casualties were a real possibility.
A day known to represent love and affection could have taken a much different meaning today.
JORDAN: When you first connected with James, like what kind of person was he and where was he at in his life at the time of your meeting with him?
LINDSAY: One of the first things that James and I started talking about on Facebook was the music we liked.
We had similar tastes in music and so I ended up introducing him to a lot of the bands that I knew of.
I was the one who introduced him to National socialist black metal 'cause he he didn't have any idea of National socialist black metal at the time.
And I thought it would be a great thing to introduce him to.
And of course he loved it.
And we also found that we had the same taste in fashion.
We both like this sort of.
Kind of darker.
I wouldn't say Gothic aesthetic, but just because we like to wear clothes that creeps people out, we just like to walk around dressed like school shooters, basically.
I had like a lot of military clothing and trench coats that I loved wearing, and he had like similar clothes.
JORDAN: And what about personal life?
Like did you talk much about like his family and work and these sorts of things, like where you got to know where he was in the world in that, in that aspect?
LINDSAY: Kind of.
We did talk about our families a little.
I remember we talked about our pets.
He told me about his cats and I told him about my dogs.
JORDAN: Can you talk about your initial relationship?
What was the form it took?
Were you friends?
Was it romantic?
And can you kind of talk about how your relationship developed from I'm interested in him and he's cool to the point that you're you know deciding you may want to you you're going to want to die together where your connections.
Can you kind of talk about how your relationship with James grew in what form it took?
LINDSAY: We originally began as just friends.
We were just chatting, finding out we had things in common, and then we kind of started planning to meet up in real life, and the context of that meeting would be some kind of mass shooting.
And from and after that, I don't know.
I just felt really strongly attracted to him.
I wasn't sure exactly what these feelings were.
I thought it was just, you know, adrenaline from planning a murder.
But it was.
In certain to be so much more than that after we kind of.
After we kind of got into those, into the sexting and The Dirty images that people are always talking about in the press.
He just started acting like he was completely in love with me, and at first I was just kind of going along with it, but then I.
Just started feeling things for him too.
JORDAN: What came first?
Was it the the sexting or the planning of of a mass murder, do you recall?
LINDSAY: The planning came first, certainly.
JORDAN: Do you remember how the idea of of conducting a mass shooting together?
Like do you remember how that came up?
LINDSAY: I remember it pretty clearly.
I remember we were originally talking about our clothes and how we liked to wear clothes that intimidated people.
I kind of asked him if he had any regular Hangouts so that I could show up there too, and.
People would be.
Like, oh God, there's two of them now.
And I don't know, he kind of.
He kind of came up with the idea of maybe carrying out an actual attack while we're dressed in those clothes, and I found myself on board with the idea I we were originally talking about just scaring people at first, but then it kind of became something more than that.
JORDAN: And when this conversation was happening.
In your mind, was it this is something we're going to do or was it more like fantasy role-playing kind of thing like what were you thinking?
LINDSAY: Well, I knew I definitely wanted to meet him.
That much I know.
Other than that, I thought that could be something I might want to do, but I wasn't really that serious about it until we actually started discussing possible locations, possible strategies, and so on and so on.
JORDAN: After spending a considerable amount of time speaking to Lindsay about her relationship with James, I'm left with the conclusion that I'll never be able to understand how 2 strangers can make a connection and decide to kill and die together after only a few days of online communication.
But as we'll get to in the minds of Lindsey and presumably James, this relationship was incredibly powerful and was a matter of destiny.
In fact, shortly we'll hear how the pair suspect that that dark, supernatural forces were drawing them together and guiding them throughout the planning of the plot.
But before we hear about the twisted bonds that form around this fatal relationship, there's something that I think is appropriate to highlight.
I don't know what role, if any, this plays in Lindsay's willingness to dive into this relationship face first, but if nothing else, it provides a bit of context.
When entering this relationship, Lindsay did so with something between a damaged and a broken heart.
As you'll hear Lindsay and romance, they have a history.
Before your relationship with James.
Did you have many romantic relationships with with others and if so, can you talk about kind of your your history before James with romantic relationships?
LINDSAY: I didn't have that many relationships, to be perfectly honest.
I don't like love and it doesn't like.
People keep telling me that I don't deserve love because I'm not the relationship type and just because I fail to be as bland and sweet seeming and saccharine as like all these other women who are in relationships.
I end up staying single for like a long, long time.
JORDAN: Like was there a time that you ever had like a long term or semi long term more traditional relationship like can you, can you think of?
A time that you did.
LINDSAY: Kind of, but.
It was just an online relationship.
He kept telling me that we were going to meet in real life, but of course we never did.
It was just a really stupid, superficial relationship that I probably took way too seriously for what it was.
JORDAN: So you would say, I guess based on everything you said you would, you describe yourself as unlucky and love.
LINDSAY: I suppose so it's just.
It's just like people say, I'm not the relationship type.
JORDAN: Now, I'm only speculating, but I can't help but feel as though the dissatisfaction Lindsey felt in her romantic life made meeting James even more consuming than the typical honeymoon phase one experiences.
And a new relationship?
With Lindsey being such an outspoken supporter of her neo-Nazi ideologies, the dating field was certainly narrowed.
And then, when you add her intense interest in the Columbine shooting and violence, finding a compatible partner must be comparable to finding a rusty needle amongst a collection of haystacks, which realistically seems like a very good thing for society as a whole.
Now, also in reading between the lines of her statements on romance, I sensed some strong bitterness and perhaps even some signs that she felt a low self worth in this regard.
But as we continue our narrative, Lindsay and James, they appeared to be a match made in Hell.
The interests they shared which would.
Make them oh casts and any social circles I've ever been in actually brought them together.
As you'll hear, the pair came to believe that their bond had supernatural influence.
They believed the spirits of the deceased Columbine shooters Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold found.
New life with.
Are you able to, in words, explain what exactly made your relationship so strong that you were willing to both kill and die together?
Maybe could you just try to explain what James means to you and how that happened so fast?
LINDSAY: We just felt like it was destiny, that it was faith that Hume and I met and that we both had similar goals.
And we started planning being things really, really early on.
It wasn't until like a day or two after we started planning that we realized, OK, we were meant to die together.
We just became really important to each other because of that and the way that our personalities kind of meshed together.
We were kind of like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, and in some respects I would be Eric Harris and James was like Dylan Klebold.
And we thought we were actually them somehow.
Not exactly reincarnations, but more like their spirits had found their way to.
US and that we were them.
JORDAN: Are you able to explain any further what you mean by their spirits found their way to you?
Like in in which way did you feel you were connected to the Columbine shooters?
LINDSAY: I believed that I had the mind of Eric Harris inhabiting my body somehow, and that as time went on and I went and I was planning things more and more, he like started taking over me more and more.
I just felt like I I wasn't myself, I was him at some point and that this is what I was meant to be doing my whole life.
JORDAN: Very interesting.
And did James feel the same way or or was that something you were kind of projecting on James as the role of Dylan?
LINDSAY: He started feeling the same way as well.
JORDAN: At this point, we learned as much about the relationship as I feel necessary to provide context to the mass shooting and suicide plot.
The pair would begin to form when we return from a short break. Lindsey will begin walking us through the plot that would soon lead to James's.
Death and her.
I'll rejoin this story, but I'm not going to dive right into this next segment.
Things are about to get tough.
Lindsey will soon begin to walk us through exactly what the pair were planning to do in the food court of the Halifax Shopping Center.
Now I know during the course.
This series Lindsay has shared a lot that I, and likely the majority of others found to be very upsetting.
And it's not just what she says, it's her manner of speaking.
The flat effect in the direct matter of fact approach, it makes it all the more distant.
But this next portion in particular, I think, will forever echo in some of the darkest corners of my own mind.
LINDSAY: Second, one of the first things we did was start thinking of possible locations.
I left most of that up to him because, again, it was it was going to take place in his town.
I didn't really know the area because I'd never been.
So I left, kind of left that up to him and he kind of threw some ideas out there.
One of the ideas he threw out there was a hospital.
He liked the idea of being able to shoot and stab patients who are just laying there in their beds.
But I kind of said that sounded fun, but I didn't really think that in my heart.
I just thought.
No, that wouldn't really.
There wouldn't really be much point to that.
Another place he mentioned was a library.
I I thought that shooting up a library would send the wrong message and I just didn't want to copy Columbine too closely, so I didn't really go with that one.
And he also suggested maybe in elementary school, because there was one not too far from where he lived.
I didn't want to do that either, because I didn't want to send the wrong message.
But one location that I ended up agreeing to was a mall, which we all know turned out to be the Halifax Shopping Centre.
JORDAN: What about the mall to you?
Was it was attractive as far as like the message it would send?
LINDSAY: It was kind of this symbolism of Western decadence and the modern world in general, just the idea of this place where people go to consume.
It seemed like it seemed like approach.
It would be protest against capitalism, against consumerism, against greed.
I believe it was the film dawn of the dead that had zombies attacking a shopping mall, and it was supposed to be like this metaphor for our modern society and how obsessed with consumption.
Is, so I thought that would be perfect.
JORDAN: But with the location decided, the next thing to plan is how you're actually going to you know, you being in Illinois, in the United States and him being in his parents house in Halifax, your next thing to overcome would be actually making it happen.
What were you planning to to do as far as like weapons and?
How the the massacre would unfold?
Like what was your, what was your plan in that regard?
LINDSAY: James already had weapons.
They were a couple of guns belonging to his father and so it would be best.
It would have been best if I were to go there instead of him trying to come to the United States with his weapons.
Uh, So what I had to do was purchase a plane ticket to get to Halifax, and I had money saved up from holidays and birthdays, so that's what I used.
JORDAN: And I understand that a part of your plan was to end the massacre by killing yourselves before being arrested.
Can can you talk about how you came up with that, why you wanted to do it and what would have happened?
Like how how would you have ended this?
LINDSAY: Well, the decision to kill ourselves at the end, that was something that James had wanted to do, like the whole time, that was his main motivation.
I think he really just wanted.
And his life, and I wanted to be able to end my life with him.
And what we were going to do was we were going to save our last bullets for ourselves and we were going.
And just like Columbine, we would have shot ourselves on the count of three.
JORDAN: Well, in again getting back to the to the planning, James had some weapons, you had a location decided when in your conversations with James, I'm sure you were talking about what was, what you were going to do and what was going.
To happen what?
Were you planning inside the mall?
What were you planning to do if this had?
Worked out, what would you both have done?
LINDSAY: I left most of the strategy to James because, again, it was his area.
It was, I wasn't familiar with the Halifax Shopping Center, so his idea was that we go into the food court bathrooms, we change into the clothes we were going to where we get our weapons ready, and then we just kind of come out.
Then open fire on the food court.
JORDAN: Did you have any plan as far as who you would target or what you would say or whatnot?
Like did you have a plan in that regard?
LINDSAY: I think we're just going to shoot pretty much whoever we saw, but we both kind of like have this sort of ideal victim in our heads people that we would.
Would especially want to kill James. Just wanted to. He really. James really wanted to kill middle-aged women, especially those who might have been Christian, those who might have had a family, things like that. And I there were several different kinds of people I wanted to target. One was.
Maybe anybody who was particularly just genic looking.
I just have these ideas about eugenics and like what kind of features mean that someone has good genetics versus bad and I don't know.
Anybody with like?
Poor looking genetics would just be a.
Target for me.
And another thing I was thinking of was, I don't know, maybe shooting some basic ******* and being like, haha, you look fat.
When you bleed.
JORDAN: Anyone who's ever enjoyed a quick lunch in the food court of a busy mall, or simply anyone with respect for human life, is likely feeling a little more than uncomfortable at this point.
What she said and how she said it, and quite simply, what could have happened, it's unfathomable to me, but it's hard not to notice that the plot.
Wasn't elaborately planned.
There didn't seem to be any real strategy, and what planning they did do seemingly had no consideration to logistics.
In fact, to this day there's ongoing conversation about if this even could have been carried out had Lindsay made it out of the Halifax airport.
Based on a review of the Facebook chat logs, which I've read in their entirety multiple times, it seems as though the planning was divided between the horror they planned to inflict and the aesthetics of the plot.
Lindsay and James.
They had a strong vision and they took inspiration from the dark interests they shared, and they spent a considerable amount of time.
But I can't help but describe as some sort of twisted attempt at branding.
When I get back to the discussion, Lindsay will explain the vision they had for this plot look and sound.
LINDSAY: We had our outfits planned down pretty much perfectly.
James had this kmem shirt that he was going to wear that said God like on it, and he also had a screened mask that he really liked and he had these some camouflage pants that he wanted to wear and I guess combat boots.
And then I what I had was this.
White shirt with.
An eagle on it, and it said terror on the bottom and I also had.
Not these black skinny jeans that I would wear with it.
Since the shirt was kind of kind of longish, I had to wear skinny jeans with it.
And I also had these black boots that I wanted to wear and a skeleton mask.
JORDAN: Was there any symbolism to the to the clothing you wore, or was this just something you guys thought looked cool?
LINDSAY: We wanted to wear outfits that would be similar to something that Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold would have war.
JORDAN: And I think you're even planning what music you were going to either play or listen to.
Can you tell me about about the playlist that that you and James had worked out and what what point that playlist had?
LINDSAY: James and I decided to start putting together a playlist that would kind of go with what we were planning.
It was something that we were going to listen to, like while we were planning this and maybe listened to it on the way there, but we were all.
But we also decided that we were going to post it to our blog so that other people could listen to it as well.
And they would have no idea, like, what that playlist was actually for until it actually happened.
And then they'd realize, oh, all these songs kind of have a similar theme, and they all kind of go with what happened and.
And yeah, it was just.
Something to cement where we the kind of the aesthetic of what we were doing.
JORDAN: It seemed like the idea.
Of of cementing what you're doing.
Thing and and.
Dropping like little, almost like little hints on your on your blogs with something that was important to you.
Can you tell me about some other things you had posted online as a way to, I don't know if advertise or promote what you're going to do is the right word, but basically to like cement what you were planning to do.
cause I I believe there was also.
Artwork in writing you had posted related to this.
LINDSAY: Yeah, we also left little bread crumbs, if you will, on our blog.
I kind of made this this image, I guess.
It kind of looks like a movie poster where it had a picture of me and James and we were in black and white and there was like this blood spatter in the background and the title of it was Darunter gang, which of course.
Is the name of our plan, and it said Valentine's Day.
It's going down.
JORDAN: I think one of the other things you did on your blog was you had a note published that would automatically post, you know, the day after the attack at the mall on Valentine's Day.
Can you can you tell me about your decision to to write that final message and and maybe tell me a bit about what you said in it?
LINDSAY: I decided that I would write some sort of text post about my motivations for why I was doing what I did and my thoughts about it and I I never actually finished typing it.
I was too busy with James to really.
To really do much writing.
Yeah, and and so yeah, I never finished the whole thing.
I had it saved as a draft.
It was never, it was never in a publishable state.
And I don't really remember that much of what I put in it.
I think I talked like a bit about hatred in general and how hate is the drive to exterminate all weaknesses.
I remember that part, but I don't really remember that much of it.
JORDAN: If anyone listening is interested in seeing that pseudo movie poster Lindsay created, it's actually what I use for this episode cover art, and for anyone interested in reading Lindsay unfinished manifesto, I've posted a link to it in this episode show notes.
I found it interesting and perhaps even revealing to note that it doesn't include the references.
In Neo Nazi ISM or Columbine that seem to give inspiration to all aspects of this plot.
It does however include references to love, which again makes me think of the grim comments Lindsay shared earlier about her romantic.
And then one will likely consider the fact that the shooting was to be carried out on Valentine's Day, a day without any significance to Neo, Nazism or Columbine.
I myself had long suspected the attack to be at least partially fueled by a hatred of love and romance.
But when I asked Lindsey?
If that was the case, she firmly denied it and explained that the plot was actually not even planned for Valentine's Day.
It was actually switched during the Paris planning when Lindsey failed to buy a plane ticket before a price increase.
The press have often referred to this as the Valentine's Day massacre, but I understand it wasn't originally planned to occur on Valentine's Day.
What was the original date and what led to it being delayed?
LINDSAY: The original date was February 1st.
There wasn't any particular significance for that date other than it was just the earliest date that I could possibly get to Halifax.
However, James had the idea of changing it to Valentine's Day, first of all because there would be more people in the food court that day, and second of all because it would be more shocking.
The public to do with Valentine's Day.
JORDAN: And the like the idea of like you getting the plane ticket was, was that like a a big problem for you to be able to afford the ticket or or did you have the money and just neglect it to buy it in time or?
LINDSAY: I had the money, but I was just a little hesitant to purchase it because I was afraid of something possibly going wrong.
JORDAN: And you didn't want to like, buy the ticket and lose out on your money if he backed out or something?
Now, with a date, a location, outfits, artwork and a music playlist all agreed upon the largest obstacle in the plot still remained, and that's getting Lindsay from the United States to Halifax and housing her for what would have been her final night.
The decision the pair came up with inserts another shocking detail to this story.
James, his parents were to be the first victims of the massacre.
LINDSAY: The first thing I had to do was buy a plane ticket from Chicago to Halifax. Pretty simple, although it was quite expensive so I could only afford A1 way ticket.
And then from there I had to figure out how to get from Geneva to Chicago to the airport.
I decided that I would take a train from Geneva to Chicago because that would be the the cheapest, easiest way of doing so.
And then from there I would continue to take the train.
To the airport.
JORDAN: OK, so your plan was get the train from Geneva to Chicago, get on the airplane and come here.
Where was it going to go from there?
Like 'cause again, you had two.
We'll call them.
Well, James, of course, but also another Co conspirator in Halifax named Randall.
How did they fit into the plan?
Of getting you there, like what was, what was going to happen next if if you made it to Halifax?
LINDSAY: Randall was to meet me at the airport and he was to give me the.
The the sort of directions for getting to James House.
And the original plan was for James to kill his parents so I would be able to stay over at his house.
But that was that didn't really transpire.
There was a bit of a hiccup in the plan when and James Dad stayed home home from work that day, and so James wasn't able to kill his parents.
So the plan was changed so that I would be staying with Randall instead for that night and then I would be able to go over to James.
JORDAN: Then echo the next day, OK?
And I don't know if you're comfortable telling me, but I know you aren't that close with Randall, but how did he fit into into the plan?
How it like, how involved was he in this?
LINDSAY: He wasn't to be involved in the actual shooting at all.
His plan was to shoot himself like the day before.
Actually, no, not to shoot himself.
His plan was to have James shoot him the day before and then.
And then from there and then from there, I guess some James wanted it so that Randall would make a video recording of what we were doing.
JORDAN: What do you mean by that?
Like make Randall would make a video recording of what?
LINDSAY: James wanted Randall to, instead of killing himself the day before, to stay alive and and make a video recording of James and I shooting up them all together.
JORDAN: Do you know what the plan was to do with this video?
Like, was he planning to like, post it or do it live on online or something or?
LINDSAY: I wasn't sure exactly.
We just, I guess James, just wanted there to be like some kind of video archive of what we were doing.
JORDAN: I didn't.
That's that's new to me.
I didn't know about that. Yeah, it was.
LINDSAY: It was new to me as well.
I didn't find out until.
I was at like the police station.
JORDAN: I'm going to change gears in this episode.
At this point so far, we've heard Lindsay described her relationship with James, as well as the birth and development of the Paris mass shooting plot.
For the remainder of the episode, we're going to follow Lindsay from her home in Illinois to a jail cell in Halifax only.
Weeks after the pair met, the time has come for them to execute the plot.
With a one way plane ticket, a small bag and a horrifying plan, Lindsay would begin her journey to Halifax.
LINDSAY: The first thing I had to do was get all my stuff together and sneak out of the house.
I decided that I would do this in at three in the morning.
And what I did before was I told my parents, oh, I'm going to be moving some of my stuff downstairs and so we could like, like box it.
And they were like, OK, do you want us to leave the light on?
And I was like, no, I'm, I'm good.
And so I was able to get downstairs without anybody noticing, and I went out the back door.
And I from there I had to walk 3 miles to the train station with my bag.
It was it took a very long time.
It was exhausting, but nonetheless I made it.
And then from there they took the train all the way to Chicago and then I took a series of trains to the airport.
JORDAN: Alright, so when you made it to the airport at this point it's I guess like first thing in the morning by the time you arrive there?
LINDSAY: I don't remember exactly when I arrived, but it was pretty early on.
I had like plenty of time to just sort of hang around in the airport before my flight was there.
And then from there I got on the flight, so I.
I went to, I think, Detroit and then from there I think I went to New York and then from New York I was to go to Halifax.
JORDAN: When you're getting on the train and the airplanes and all that.
What was going through your mind like, were you thinking?
Were you excited about what you were going to do?
Were you anxious about it?
Or were you just not even thinking about it and just?
Reading your book like I?
Just try to describe you know what you were feeling and thinking about while on the way here.
LINDSAY: At first I was very eager, very excited.
I was just very, very thrilled to, like, be leaving home.
And then, I don't know, it's as I was.
I was like schlepping my bag all the way to the train station.
I just felt, OK, this might be more difficult than I had originally planned, but I was still determined to make it.
And then from there, when I was on the plane, I just, like, slept pretty much the whole time because I was so exhausted from carrying that bag 3 miles.
JORDAN: And your excitement, was it a boat?
Like, of course, James is your boyfriend who you've never been with physically in person.
But then you also had this plan to kill together.
Was your excitement about being with James physically?
Was it about the killing?
Was it about reflecting on how people would view the events after it happened?
Like what parts of this was so exciting and appealing to you?
LINDSAY: Oh, everything was exciting.
JORDAN: And at this point in getting here, was there, did you feel like anyone was suspicious of you or were you able to kind of get this far without any problem?
LINDSAY: I got that far without any any problems whatsoever.
The only time I actually did have problems because I was arriving in Halifax.
JORDAN: You're expecting to see Randall basically waiting for you, but that's not exactly what happened, so why don't you tell me where the trouble started?
LINDSAY: First thing I had to do was get past customs, and the thing was I was asleep for pretty much the whole flight, so I didn't really have the.
Have the time to fill out the little form so I there's so I just like filled it out as quickly as possible.
I didn't really think of a convincing cover story or anything, so when I got the customs, the agent there, he thought something was he thought something was off because I had very little money with me, very, very few items.
And that I only had a one way ticket so.
I ended up being detained.
And I had to speak to Kev.
There was this one lady there.
She was just horrible.
She was just, she just kept questioning me about like, what I was going to do.
And I'm just like, I'm here to.
I'm just here to meet my boyfriend.
We're going to spend Valentine's Day together and she's like, what are you going to do though?
And I'm just saying they're thinking.
Lady, you seriously don't know what people do on Valentine's Day.
Has it been that long?
And then from there I ended up, yes, being.
Paid and they were going through like all of my stuff and I guess they really didn't like some of the items that I had with me.
They didn't like my books, they didn't like the little hat that I had that had a swastika on it and so from there.
Here come the police actually came, and I ended up being arrested for uttering threats.
JORDAN: When they arrested you, did they explain what was going on and did they explain that they knew of your plan?
LINDSAY: They said that they knew what I was doing, that they had read through all of my, all of my logs and things like that, and.
It was very, very strange because I was arrested for uttering threats.
I did not utter any actual threats.
I knew the legal definition of a threat, and I knew that I had done no such thing.
So I thought, OK, I might actually might get away with this.
JORDAN: Was that your fault?
Like were you thinking you it maybe was still going to happen and you were going to be OK?
LINDSAY: Yeah, I thought I would be able to just get my way out of it because really, what had I really done, other than have some conversations on Facebook and get on a plane, I didn't really think that I would be.
In bad much trouble.
JORDAN: When police arrived to the airport and took Lindsay into custody, it was certainly a shock to her.
The planning the pair did seemed to give no consideration to the realities of international flights and as such Lindsay appear to have been unprepared for the questioning that someone traveling on a one way ticket with next to no money or luggage would expect.
But any shock she felt likely turned a panic when the police informed her that.
They were well aware of her.
Had already accessed her Facebook chat logs.
And seemed to know.
Exactly what she was doing in Halifax.
What we now know is that an anonymous tip was made to Crime Stoppers informing law enforcement that a young woman named Lindsay S.
Was on her way to Halifax to carry out a shooting in the Halifax Shopping Centre.
The identity of this tipster is still a mystery, but it's something Lindsay has thought about considerably.
I understand as well that you weren't entirely secretive about what you were planning and you had spoke to some other people about it.
Can you talk about?
What you said to other people, how they react it, and you know who these people were because ultimately one of them ended up leading to the demise of the plan by reporting you.
LINDSAY: Both James and I, who were talking to other people about it, I was very, very careful about it.
I was careful not to name a specific location or a specific target.
But I kind of hinted at what James and I were going to do, but I never outright said we're going to kill people.
And my friends I I told my friends on the Skype group I had, and they all they all seemed actually pretty supportive of it, though none of them actually articulated that thought exactly.
James I guess, leaked more details of our plan because he's he really wasn't as careful as I was.
JORDAN: So ultimately somebody had made that tip that somebody named Lindsay S would be coming from somewhere in the states to do this in Halifax.
At this point, do you know or do you have any idea who the tipster was and do?
You even care to know.
LINDSAY: I'm still trying to figure out who it was.
See, I know the details of the tip and that gives me some clues.
Like, I have enough information to know that it was someone who knew James but not me very well.
That it was someone who must have been.
On Facebook because most of the information that they had about me came off of my Facebook page.
File so I have some inkling of who might have done.
It, but I can't name anyone specifics.
JORDAN: Whomever this tipster was, their willingness to pick up the phone and do the right thing likely saved lives and certainly prevented this horrifying story from becoming something even worse.
And thanks to that tipster.
This is where the plot to shoot and kill at the mall ends.
Before we wrap up the episode, however, there's still a lot to cover as Lindsey still wasn't formally charged and the whereabouts of James they were still a mystery, or what Lindsey didn't know was that while she was being questioned by border security at the airport, Halifax police were forming a perimeter around the home of James Gamble.
You're taken from the public by the police from the airport to the I'm guessing they took you to the police station.
Why don't you tell me about what happened when you showed up at the at the police station from the airport?
LINDSAY: I don't really remember that much about first arriving, but I remember I was in a holding cell for a little while.
They had to search my clothes and things like that, and I was like given this little gown that I had to stay in while they were going through my clothes, and then I was eventually able to put my clothes back on.
And I went upstairs to be interrogated.
And the interrogation didn't happen in like, all one chunk.
They let me.
They let me have breaks every now and then so I could rest.
JORDAN: What was like the interrogation like?
What kind of things were they interrogating you about, or what were they asking you about?
LINDSAY: They asked me a lot about.
About my plans.
So my actual plans were and I said, oh, I planned on.
I'm killing myself with my boyfriend on Valentine's Day.
And they kept asking me about, like, my interest in Columbine and the things that were on my blog and things like that.
There were different there were different cops there.
And of course, as anybody who who had watched a TV show about such things to.
Know is that.
Each koblick has like a different style.
For interrogating a suspect.
Some of them were, some of them were very aggressive with me, some were more passive aggressive, but overall I really did not give them any useful information.
JORDAN: At this point, you're probably thinking like Randall and James or like in other cells, getting interrogated or something.
When did you find out what happened to Randall and what happened to your boyfriend James?
LINDSAY: Well, I knew that Randall got arrested with me because he was at the airport at the same time that I was.
I did not find out about what happened to James until, I don't know, maybe halfway into the interrogation.
Because one of the things I kept saying was don't ask me, ask James and.
Eventually one of the cops came in and he just told me James is dead.
His head off.
JORDAN: What did you like when you heard that?
What went through your mind?
LINDSAY: I thought he was lying.
See, one of the things that I did was I spoke to a lawyer over the phone and he told me not to believe anything that the cops told me because they can legally lie to me.
And so I thought, OK, this is just a trick somehow.
JORDAN: So when the police came in and said, you know, James can't answer these questions, he's dead.
Initially you weren't believing them.
Do you recall when it got to the point where you're like, oh **** like they're telling the truth, James died.
LINDSAY: But I don't really recall that moment at all.
It was, I guess, just something that one of the other cops might have said, that it just finally dawned on me that, OK, this this actually happened.
JORDAN: When, like, when does the gravity of all this hit you?
Like, is there a moment where you're just realizing, like, oh **** like, this is a really big deal, you know?
James is dead.
Like, do you do you remember a time where it all just kind of fell on your shoulders?
What had actually happened?
LINDSAY: There wasn't any moment in particular.
I think it all just kind of trickled onto me slowly.
JORDAN: Do you remember what it like?
Can you talk about what it felt like to?
Be faced with this.
LINDSAY: Well, at first I thought, OK, this is game over.
I can't go home.
I can't, I can't get out of this.
So I thought there is really, really nothing I can do.
JORDAN: And when it got to that point, did you just tell them, you know what had happened?
Like, was there ever a point where you're just like, forget this?
Like, I'll just tell you guys everything?
LINDSAY: No, not at all.
I still refused to give them any information because I still thought, OK, I the less I say the better.
But I guess it was Randall who ultimately spilled the beans.
Or that's just what they told me.
JORDAN: All right.
So some time would have passed from you being arrested with uttering threats and these interrogations.
When did you realize what legal battle you were facing?
LINDSAY: I was charged with conspiracy to commit murder.
I think it was after Randall had said something about our plans.
JORDAN: There must have been like, after your arrest.
There must have been a point where you had to, like, call your parents from jail or whatever.
Like, do you do you recall doing that?
And like, how?
How that happened and what what that was like to kind of face what was happening.
LINDSAY: I kind of refused to call my parents until I was actually at court.
JORDAN: So did you not talk to them while while you were being held?
LINDSAY: I was given, I was given the.
Chance to call them and I like refused to.
JORDAN: Wow, I didn't...
I didn't know that.
Probably just you.
Knew that wasn't going to be a pleasant phone call.
RANDALL: They were fun.
They laughed at my jokes.
NEWS READER: Vincent Appleton met James Gamble and Randall Shepherd six months.
Though since then they would hang out and go to live metal shows.
RANDALL: I've come to the understanding that I probably didn't really know them very well.
NEWS READER: At all, the last time Appleton saw Gamble and Shepherd was three weeks ago.
RANDALL: It was the exact same as any other time that I went out and they were there.
NEWS READER: 20 year Old Shepherd and 23 year.
Old Lindsay, Savannah Roth.
Are both charged with conspiracy to commit murder.
19 year old Gamble was found dead in his home after police surrounded it early Friday.
Police say gamble and Savannah Roth and American were planning to open fire in the Halifax Shopping Centre before killing them.
Selves professor of psychology Steven Smith says it's possible the alleged plan was hatched within a specific group of people without anyone else finding out.
STEVEN: You have very extreme views, or you want to engage in very extreme behavior.
It might be very difficult for you to find other people in Halifax that think that way.
But if you can go to the Internet where you now have access to, you know, hundreds of millions of people, those people you know, those other extreme people will be on the Internet and therefore it'll be easier for you to.
NEWS READER: A blog that is linked to Gamble shows graphic images of guns, sexualized violence and discussions about the Columbine School massacre.
Police say they think Souvanna, Rath and Gamble met online.
Why they allegedly hatched the plan is still under investigation.
STEVEN: The point that this was already at the very specific plan stage suggests that it was, you know, quite plausible that they were actually going to do it.
They had a date, they had a place, they had the materials, they needed to do it, so that's.
NEWS READER: Where there's high risk, shepherd and Susannah Roth will both appear in a.
Halifax court tomorrow.
JORDAN: It's time to start wrapping up the episode.
Since we started, we've learned about the unique relationship Lindsay and James Gamble formed, including her thoughts and the dark forces the pair felt were guiding them.
Then we heard disturbing details.
The mass shooting the pair plotted to carry out before ending their lives just as a Columbine shooter.
But fortunately for all who put a value on human life, we were also able to follow Lindsay from her home in Illinois into police custody in Halifax.
With this episode being titled Lindsay James and the Valentine's Day massacre, it's at this point in the story that will stop.
Both Lindsay and Randall are arrested and charged with conspiracy to commit murder.
And as far as James Gamble, his life was the only one lost when he shot himself in his home as police closed in around him.
Now we're not for the good deed of the anonymous informant and the strategic errors on the part of the conspirators, it's hard to consider what could have happened.
When we return for our next episode, Part 4 in this series, our story will again pick up from this point that we're leaving off with Lindsay facing justice and beginning her new life after planning death.
LINDSAY: I knew that mine was a very, very odd case and then the the bulk of the evidence was just the Facebook log.
There was very little other concrete evidence evidence aside from that, so I thought I actually had pretty good chances.
My lawyer seemed pretty confident that he would be able to get those logs excluded.
Because the police had made several mistakes in acquiring that ever.
So I was very, very hopeful at first.
I remember my lawyer telling me about the judge that we ended up having for the case, and he really did not sound hopeful about it given what he knew about that judge.
But I thought we should take our chances with it anyway.
I just wanted to see what would happen on that particular.
Dates where we were supposed to try and get the logs excluded.
Of course, that ended up being shot down and that's when I changed my plea to guilty.
JORDAN: And with that, we'll conclude this episode of night time.
But I do want to end with some short messages.
I want to dedicate this episode to the anonymous informant who did the right thing and prevented a tragedy.
Whoever you are, if you're listening to this, my hats off to you and I hope you know how much of a difference.
You've made in so many people's lives.
If you ever want to step out of the shadows, I'd be happy to meet with you confidentially to personally thank you over a coffee.
If you decide to contact me, your identity and the fact that we even met will remain completely and absolutely private.
I'd also like to send my condolences to the family and friends of everyone involved.
In this story.
The families of Lindsay, souvenir of James Gamble and Randy Shepherd, by all accounts, are average, loving families, likely similar to the ones that we came from.
4. Life After Planning Death
JORDAN: Before we begin, a quick warning.
In the past night time as welcome guests who brought with them some controversial baggage, but this series is altogether different.
References will be made to Neo Nazism, mass murder, and self harm.
If these topics are triggers to you, either sit this one out or at least proceed with caution.
Welcome back to an ongoing series exploring the life and crime of Lindsay souvenir of the young woman convicted of conspiracy to commit murder as a result of her role in the foiled Halifax Shopping Center Valentine's Day mass shooting plot.
In the last entry in this series, titled The Story of Lindsay, Souvenir of Part 3, Lindsay James, and the Valentine's Day massacre, the enigmatic souvenir off again joined us from behind the walls of a Canadian federal prison.
During that episode, excerpts from a series of interviews I conducted with Lindsay were used to describe.
The events and decisions directly associated with the mass shooting plot.
Over the course of that episode, Lindsay described forming a relationship with her 19 year old Co conspirator James Gamble, and outlined the various decisions the pair made during the planning of this foiled plot.
When we left off in that episode, Lindsay had just finished walking us through the steps she took in the execution of the plot.
Steps that would lead her from her home in Geneva, IL, to a jail cell in Halifax Nova.
Again, it was thanks to an anonymous Crime Stoppers tip that authorities were made aware of the plot and were able to apprehend the incoming American at the Halifax airport.
The only death related to this plot was that of her Co conspirator James Gamble, who took his own life while police surrounded his home.
Like, when does the gravity of all this hit you?
Like, is there a moment where you're just realizing like, oh **** like this is a really big deal, you know?
James is dead.
Like, do you.
Do you remember a time where it all just kind of fell on your shoulders?
What had actually happened?
LINDSAY: Well, at first I thought, OK, this is game over.
I can't go home.
I can't get out of this, so I thought there is really, really nothing I could do 'cause I still thought, OK, I the less I say the better, but I guess it was Randall who ultimately spilled the beans.
Or that's just what they told me.
JORDAN: All right.
So some time would have passed from you being arrested with uttering threats and these interrogations.
When did you realize what legal battle you were facing?
LINDSAY: I was charged with conspiracy to commit murder.
I think it was after Randall had said something about our plan.
JORDAN: It's from this point that will rejoin Lindsay in her dark, strange story tonight.
In this episode of night Time, our focus will be on Lindsay Savannah Roth life after planning death.
NEWS READER: This appeared to be a group of murderous misfits that were prepared to wreak havoc and mayhem on our community.
JORDAN: Following the chronology of Lindsay's life in crime, we are starting this episode just days after her arrest in Halifax.
As we heard described in that last episode, she'd been arrested, interrogated and is now in custody in a different country, nearly 3000 kilometres from her home, facing charges of conspiracy.
Murder for Lindsay life after planning death began in a small prison cell in Halifax, NS her preoccupation with the dark and antisocial interests that we've heard so much about. Immediately, they've been replaced by extended periods of confusion, uncertainty, and a perpetual state of waiting.
Could you just talk through that first, a year or so before your trial?
Like what was, what was going on in your life and just what was life like for this first year after being arrested for a mass shooting plot?
LINDSAY: At first it was very agonizing because they were keeping me on suicide watch at first because of all the nature of my charges and I didn't even have a mattress.
It was just.
Like this pad on the floor that I.
Had to sleep on and and I didn't have it like anything to occupy my time.
I didn't have any books.
I wasn't even allowed to have my glasses at the time.
And I just had no idea what was going on, no idea what was happening.
Every now and then they'd like, Take Me Out and bring me to the psychiatrist, or they'd have me meeting with my lawyer and I was just so confused and overwhelmed.
I spent most of my time sleeping and eventually they just moved me to administrative seg, which is well, pretty much.
The same thing and I.
Eventually they let me have a book, but it was still very, very agonizing.
JORDAN: How long did this last?
LINDSAY: It lasted for several weeks, I think.
I can't give you an exact time frame because I kind of lost track of time while I.
JORDAN: It sounds like when somebody describes like solitary confinement is kind of like you're just alone to just sit there confused with your thoughts.
LINDSAY: Yeah, we actually do have like some rights while we're in our instag like that, like we're entitled to like so much yard time, so much exercise.
But but I had no idea what my rights were, of course, so I just kind of spend more time just sitting there.
JORDAN: And from there I guess it must have come to a point that they realized you weren't a risk of suicide and they started to kind of move you with the regular population.
In the jail.
Is is that?
LINDSAY: Kind of, yeah.
They put me in the on this one unit where there were like people who I don't know, I guess.
This couldn't be on any of the any of the regular units and I was just kind of there to see how I would interact with them before they would moving onto a more.
JORDAN: Typical unit.
And now given the the nature of your crime and especially given the fact that this was really big news in Nova Scotia and even in Canada when this happened, I'm thinking the other prisoners and and even the guards, they must have known who you were, like what kind of reception?
Did you did you get from people like did?
You feel like?
You know, a bit of an enigma walking around there.
Or were you treated any differently?
LINDSAY: It was different with different people, but the most, but most people who knew who I was, they were mostly just curious about me.
Like the big question was always why?
Why were you going to do it?
JORDAN: And what about your actual legal case?
Like, did you have any idea of what was expected to come of your of your legal case and what were you told?
LINDSAY: Well, I was told the bare bones of what was going to happen.
I just told there was going to be a preliminary inquiry and then eventually things would go to trial.
But what confused things was the sheer amount of waiting that I had to do, and how many court dates were just there to set dates for future appointments.
So it was.
Just very confusing.
I didn't understand why I kept having to go to court for just setting dates and it took forever for my preliminary inquiry to even begin.
JORDAN: As a disoriented and out of place, Lindsay souvenir off haunted the common areas and program rooms of Nova Scotia woman prison.
She was left with little more than time to reflect on her life, her crime and what she'd lost as a result of her role in this plot, when her conversation LED us to discuss regrets in grief.
Lindsay had yet another surprise in store for me.
Of course, as anyone listening to this has noticed, she has shown little to no emotion during the hours we spent on the phone together.
But unexpectedly, that changed, although it's only subtle.
Lindsey Voice started the break, and for a moment, I believe she began to cry.
Was there ever a point where it kind of just, like, washed over you?
Like, holy **** Like, what did I get myself into?
Or was it just kind of like a gradual thing where it wasn't a, you know, a sudden realization?
LINDSAY: I kind of just accepted it right away.
My main thought was, OK, I've made my bed.
I'll lie in it.
I didn't really see the point of of like, acting all I don't know of being at all shocked or horrified at everything.
JORDAN: Another thing that would have been affecting you at this period of time is there's there's no secret.
You've made it obvious that your relationship with James is something incredibly important to you now.
Here you are just moments away from meeting him and.
Doing what you both plan to do, how you plan to, you know to end your relationship and your lives together.
Was that something hard for you to deal?
With like were.
You mourning his loss while going through this or?
How did you deal with that?
LINDSAY: At first, I didn't really feel much.
I didn't really feel like I had any rights to be sad or angry whatsoever.
But eventually I just started letting myself, letting myself actually feel the grief that came from it.
JORDAN: You had talked about how the gravity of it kind of slowly came over you and you didn't like really yourself feel too bad about what was happening.
You were making your bed and lying in it.
What regrets did you have initially, be it regrets about James or the predicament you found yourself in?
So can you talk at all about?
Any initial regrets you had and what they were and you know?
At how it made you feel.
LINDSAY: I remember thinking a lot about oh.
What if I had done this?
Differently things might have gone a bit better.
What if this had happened?
What if I had done this?
Just the typical sort of thoughts that someone has whenever whenever they lose someone dear to them, or whenever something goes very awry in their lives?
JORDAN: So it was more so regrets related to losing James.
Yeah, definitely is what like specifically what kind of things were you grappling with that?
Like you know, if we had it done this or if I had it done that, are you comfortable sharing any kind of specifics?
LINDSAY: I really wish that one of the things that I had covered with James was like a what if scenario.
Like, what if somebody ends up alerting the cops about us?
I would have told him not to panic, because he definitely had a tendency to panic if things went even slightly awry.
And of course his panic led to him taking his own life.
So I regret not being able to tell him to stay calm and try to work through things.
And another thing I regretted was.
Well, if you look at the chat logs, you'll see that James and I were very romantic with each other, but I never was able to articulate the words.
I love you.
I was planning to do that once I actually met him in person.
I thought it would be a nice surprise for him, and while I was traveling there, I was very excited about being able to.
Say those words to him and said Bathai was another thing I regret I did not telling him.
JORDAN: The first years of Lindsay's incarceration may have provided her with plenty of time to adjust to her new life and reflect on the one she left behind. But given the unanswered questions related to her future, it was a time filled with uncertainty.
Plain and simple, the case against Lindsay Savannah Roth was incredibly unique and many were left scratching their heads when considering how Canada justice system could respond to this, as Lindsay described in that prior episode.
In her mind, what did she really do, aside from, say, some disturbing things on Facebook and get on a plane?
But regardless of Lindsay's thoughts on the case, a series of court appearances was all it would take to turn this from a trial into a sentencing.
And in much the same way her crime terrified the people of Halifax, the trials and tribulations associated with her legal battle, it captivated them.
LINDSAY: I knew that mine was a very, very odd case and then the the bulk of the evidence is just the Facebook log.
There was very little other.
Concrete evidence, evidence aside from.
That so I thought I actually had pretty good chances.
Seemed pretty confident that he would be able to get those logs excluded, because the police had had made several mistakes in acquiring that evidence.
So I was very, very hopeful at first.
JORDAN: So the initial kind of legal battle was whether or not these logs would be able to be used as evidence, because again, without the logs there would.
There's basically nothing 'cause your entire contact with James.
For the most part was was on Facebook.
Do you eventually these logs were.
Included as evidence against you.
Do you remember kind of finding out that the logs are going to be against you and your case just went from pretty good to really bad?
Do you remember that happening?
LINDSAY: I remember my lawyer telling me about the judge that we ended up having for the case, and he really did not sound hopeful about it given what he knew about that judge, but I thought we should take our chances with it anyway.
I just wanted to see what would happen on that particular date where we were supposed to try and get the logs excluded.
Of course, that ended up being shot down and that's when I changed my plea to guilty.
JORDAN: Ultimately, what was it that you pled guilty to?
What were the charges?
LINDSAY: The charges were conspiracy to commit murder.
JORDAN: And so with the logs included, you changed your plea to guilty and that kind of changed the narrative of kind of the legal battle because now there's not going to be a trial, you would just go directly to sentencing is is that right?
Yeah, so that must have been a pretty big realization.
You, now that you know you you pled guilty, you know you're going to face the music, I guess, of of your crime.
Did it did a lot of time pass from between your guilty plea to the sentencing and and if so, can you kind of talk about what you expected to happen?
Especially as far as a sentence.
LINDSAY: There was quite a bit of time that passed between my guilty plea and my sentencing a year, I think, and at first I didn't think it was going to be that bad.
My lawyer said, OK, we might get around 14 to 16 years and that's what I was expecting, but of course in the end I ended up being sentenced.
NEWS READER: The defence was asking the judge for a prison sentence of between 12 and 14 years, claiming this mass murder plot was poorly planned and unlikely to ever happen.
The Crown recommended a term of between 20 years and life and Justice Peter Rosinski sided with the prosecutors sentencing.
Savannah raft to life in prison.
Rosinski said her lack of remorse worked against her, noting what he called Savannah's ongoing dangerousness. It's a big victory for prosecutors.
NEWS INTERVIEWER #1: The court was unequivocal that this kind of conduct here in Canada by an offender who is not claiming to be remorseful or announced it will never be accepted.
NEWS INTERVIEWER #2: It seems like something that's only in the news and occurs elsewhere.
This made it very real, brought it home to us that our community is at risk, was at risk, and that's something very serious.
Yes, it was only narrowly averted.
NEWS READER: The case is every parent's worst nightmare. Savannah laugh and her Co conspirator James Gamble became obsessed with the Columbine High School killers.
Justice Rasinski said he's satisfied they would have carried out their plan to kill as many people as possible on Valentine's Day at the Halifax Shopping Centre.
The plot was foiled by an anonymous tip to police followed by Gamble suicide after police arrived at his family home.
A third person involved in the plot, Randall Shepherd, was sentenced to 10 years in prison.
Savannah Ross gets credit for already serving three years in.
She's eligible to apply for parole in seven years, although the judge says prospects for her rehabilitation are not promising.
He ordered intensive psychological counseling and only supervised Internet access.
The sentence comes on the same day as the Columbine anniversary, timing the Nova Scotia prosecution.
Service calls. A total coincidence.
JORDAN: Can you tell me about what you thought when you heard that sentence be issued to you and, you know, like, did you feel defeated, depressed or were like everything else?
You're like, I'm just going to take it on the chin, so tell me a bit about what it feels like to sit in a.
Courtroom and have the judge.
Deliver a life sentence to you.
LINDSAY: I didn't feel much of anything really.
JORDAN: It was.
It's that easy.
You just it was just like another day for you.
LINDSAY: Yeah, pretty much.
JORDAN: I'm going to change gears slightly at this point in the episode and switch the focus from events that occurred in the past and instead consider what Lindsey is up to in the present day.
And of course, we'll hear her plans for the future.
But let's start with present day.
What is prison life like for an American neo-Nazi obsessed with Columbine?
And with an unhealthy.
Interest in mass murder?
Well, to be honest, in Lindsay Savannah rats case, it doesn't sound a whole lot different than what she was up to before this all started a course macide from the rigidly structured days and the lack of Internet access.
You're just like before you went in, like your life.
It seems like you're kind of keeping a lot of the same interests like.
So maybe just talk a bit about what kind of things are you working on and doing?
LINDSAY: Well, I finished writing this one novel.
It's called grit and glory.
I spent so much time working on it.
I was at one point I was writing about 10 pages a day.
And right now it's about like 77,000 words, I think, which is a pretty good length for a novel and.
JORDAN: What is it?
What's what's the book about?
LINDSAY: Well, it's about a beauty Blogger named Glory who secretly has an interest in murder and Gore in all sorts of dark things.
And on this Gore website, she meets a hacker named Grit, and together they plan a series of murders.
JORDAN: That that sounds familiar, in a way to another story.
I know of a girl from Illinois who met a guy online.
Is this maybe?
Does this story have any connection with your life story and your relationship with James?
LINDSAY: It has some connection to my life story.
It's largely inspired by it, but most of it is fictionalized.
JORDAN: So, inspired by it, but fictionalized, I guess there are elements of your real story that found their way into a book about a pretty similar situation to your own.
LINDSAY: To some degree, yes.
Some of the dialogue was taken almost word for word from my chat logs with James.
JORDAN: And also I I think it's kind of like one thing that I would be interested in seeing is where your real life story with James End it before anything, anything happened like with your arrest at the airport, I'm guessing in the book.
That doesn't happen like when you were writing about.
These two people meeting and in actually going on a spree and you know, or whatever it is that happens in the book, were were you possibly reliving or fantasizing about what may have happened with you through the characters of this book, like if you weren't arrested.
LINDSAY: I don't really think so.
There were a lot of details in the book.
That are that.
Are quite different from what James and I were doing.
And so once I got to a certain point, once I got to the point where Gloria actually leaves her home to go meet grit, things kind of went completely fictional.
I was able to, kind of.
Of of like.
Like, put on my writers hat and just, like, be a writer, not really writing about myself.
JORDAN: Like a lot of your the nature, like the details of your crime, a lot of it was, you know, written out and kind of.
Although, like, like thought about almost as as imaginatively, like, this is what we're going to do.
This is how it's going to look.
This is how it will play out.
Like, do you feel like there's any chance that your your creativity in terms of writing and coming up with these dark stories, like do you think that that may have influenced?
Your crime, like, is there a connection between, you know, the part of your brain that comes up with these dark stories in the part of your brain that led you to, to pursue this, this massacre with James?
LINDSAY: I think it might have, especially when you consider that I was already thinking of the things that I would say to my potential victims.
I think it kind of comes from from like the same part of my brain that comes up with these stories.
JORDAN: Seeing as Lindsey just spoke about her novel, I'll share a bit of an update.
The interview you're hearing was recorded several weeks ago.
Since then, Lindsey has sent me a few chapters of the book and my goodness, I can honestly say I have never read anything like it.
Not even close.
Like she said in that prior excerpt, it very much reads like a mildly fictionalized or slightly exaggerated version of her own life story.
Except it's much more nightmarish and not nightmarish, as in dark and violent.
I mean nightmarish, as in disorienting and just deeply disturbing.
But regardless, that's what Lindsey is doing now, reading and writing. Just like before all this started, except until at least the year 2025.
Her bedroom has been replaced by a Canadian prison cell.
And that brings us to the next segment. Based on her current sentence, which makes her eligible for parole in 2025, Lindsay does have a faint light at the end of the tunnel, one that gets a little brighter with each passing day.
So that leads me to ask what, if anything, she has planned for her eventual freedom?
Do you spend a lot of time thinking and preparing for when I get out of here or or is it too far away for you to spend any you know time thinking about that?
LINDSAY: It's not really something that I think about.
JORDAN: Do you, do you have any plans?
Like I know it's a ways away, but do you have any plans for what you want your life to be like when you get out?
LINDSAY: I'm hoping to have my novel published, that much I know.
But other than that.
I really don't like to think about that far ahead in the future.
I prefer to just focus on the day-to-day life in here.
JORDAN: And the day-to-day life in there like is it, do you kind of view it out like that like one day at a time like is it is it rough where you have to kind of?
Grind each day away or or are you living like a fairly normal life?
LINDSAY: Sometimes it gets a bit difficult, but for the most part it's it's just everyday life.
It's nothing too, nothing too big.
JORDAN: And do people like, you're in a different prison now, far from Nova Scotia?
Do people know who you are?
Like, are do you stand out in any way?
Sure, I guess everybody in there has a story, but do you feel like you stand out to others?
LINDSAY: A little yes.
Some people know a little bit about who I am and.
Why I'm here?
And of course people talk, especially in prison.
JORDAN: Well, you're an American in a prison in Canada.
Have you is going back to the US something you want to do and is that even an option or are you going to be here in Canada until your sentence is over? Like can you kind of talk about that aspect of it?
LINDSAY: Once I'm on parole, I will be going back to the states, no question about it.
I've already I already know that I'm going to be deported once my time here is up.
JORDAN: So when you repeal or when when you receive parole, no matter what the conditions of it, you're you're out of Canada.
Those of you listening who followed Lindsay story before these episodes or have read about her since are likely aware that her case is still before the courts due to her appeal of the life sentence.
In fact, several parts of her story that I was interested in discussing with her had to be avoided because they may be brought up at that appeal, which seems likely to begin in March.
Probably weeks after this episode is released, what you are about to hear at this point is about all she's willing to say about her appeal.
The biggest thing I guess in your life right now, legally, is your is your appeal.
Can you tell me what what's going on with the appeal?
Like what exactly are you appealing and what what do you hope comes of that?
Like what is the kind of the best case scenario?
LINDSAY: I'm appealing my sentence, not my conviction.
I'm hoping to have it reduced, but I'm not going to be, say, be saying very much about it and what's going on with it because, again, it's still under way.
JORDAN: But the appeal doesn't change that.
You're pleading that.
It's not like a change of plea.
You're just pleading, kind of.
The the the sentence or the appealing the sentence in like kind of the more administrative parts of it.
Is there any idea of when this will happen?
Like when will we get news on what's happening?
LINDSAY: I think my next court date is in March.
I don't remember the exact day.
JORDAN: Now it's time to start wrapping up this episode, and with it this series.
Since we've started, we've learned a lot of uncomfortable things about both the Valentine's Day mass shooting plot and its surviving would be shooter Lindsay Souvannarith.
But there are two last pieces I want to use as a sort of grim bow to place on this series.
The 1st is a message from Lindsey to anyone affected by her crime in any way.
For people listening who live in Halifax and, you know, have been shocked and scared by your plot in your trial and sentencing, you never spoke on the stand.
Do you have anything to say to people who in some way had been either directly or indirectly had been affected?
By your crime.
LINDSAY: I will say that I am not the one who is the greatest danger to the public.
The people have more to fear from their own governments on their own leaders than they do from all of the mass killers in the world.
JORDAN: To end the episode, I want to use a.
Short clip that.
Really serves 2 purposes.
Many have asked whose idea was to commit a mass shooting Lindsay or her now deceased boyfriend, James Gambles.
When I asked Lindsay that question, the answer she gave really was what I expected.
But she touched on a broader idea I had about this fatal pair, the idea that it took two uniquely damaged minds to transform this plot from dark fantasy into a terrifying reality.
In the mainstream coverage of this crime, you very much so have been painted as the rig leader who you know, who possibly even manipulate it.
James, some have said even using your sexuality have manipulated him.
And how do you see the relationship between you and James?
In terms of which of you were the dominant one in terms of in the context of planning this attack?
LINDSAY: I would say it was about equal between me and James.
We both contributed our own things to the plan.
I believe that people see me as the more dominant party just because that I would.
Is more outspoken, more confident, especially in my writing, in my speech.
So look to outsiders, then.
Maybe I was the one controlling him.
But here's one thing that I believe in.
I believe in like the eastern principle of yin and Yang.
Now in Western culture, we believe that Yang energy, the more forceful outgoing sort of energy, is more dominant.
But in reality, yeah.
And Yang Energies balance each other out.
It was it was less me overtaking James, that it was our own personality, sort of blending together and sort of assisting each other.
JORDAN: And with that, we'll conclude this episode of night time.
I want to dedicate this series to the anonymous informant who did the right thing and prevented a tragedy.
Whoever you are, if you're listening to this, my hats off to you, and I hope you know how much of a difference you've made in so many people's lives. Again, I invite you to contact me privately and confidentially.
So that I may provide my personal thing.
I'd also like to send my condolences to the families and friends of anyone involved in this story.
To that point, I also invite anyone close to this story to contact me, especially so if you're interested in sharing your memories or thoughts with night time listeners via future episodes that provide updates to this story.
To Lindsey souvenir off I hope the various programs you access while incarcerated help you become a better person that's more compatible with our society.
And I hope.
That when the point comes, you get free.
You're able to safely enjoy it now.
On a lighter note, I'd also like to thank Lindsey for all the bizarre emails her appearance on the show is.
Brought to me.
I've had about an equal amount of people right to complain about having her on the show, as I did from people who seem to be in love with her and are requesting assistance in getting in touch with her.
5. Unloading James and Lindsay's "Arsenal"
JORDAN: Welcome back to an ongoing series exploring their life and crime of Lindsay souvenir off the young woman convicted of conspiracy to commit murder as a result of her role in the foiled Halifax Shopping Center Valentine's Day shooting plot.
In the last entry in this series, the story of Lindsay Souvenir, a part four life after planning death, we completed our three piece interview with the enigmatic souvannarith, who had broken her silence to share her story with us from behind the walls of a Canadian federal prison.
During her time with Lindsay, we heard a hell of a lot.
Her childhood, her views on Nazism and Columbine, her relationship with James Gamble and their mass shooting plot.
Her arrest, her legal battle, her time in prison.
It's been a real wild ride, and just like any respectable wild ride.
As we traveled across Lindsay story, we didn't take much time to slow down and examine the scenery, but that's about to change.
Which, now that the story is told, we had the perspective and the time to more carefully consider the many topics and questions that had surfaced during the story.
I consider this as a sort of pivoting point in my coverage of Lindsay's dark but fascinating story.
The direction will now take will lead us through a series of episodes dedicated to specific concepts.
I felt worthy of further examination, and to help me with the unpacking, I've invited a series of guests with a much more experience on these topics than me.
Some of these upcoming episodes will cover the Columbine or subculture.
Internet radicalization, Linzie history told by people other than her, and a whole lot more.
But we'll get to that stuff in upcoming weeks.
I decided to start this coverage by looking a bit closer at the mechanics of James and Lindsey mass shooting pool.
And I put mechanics in air quotes.
It became clear during this series that Lindsay and James spent much more time considering their wardrobes, music and artwork than they did on a strategy for their murderous plot.
And that fact has made many people question what would have or even what could have happened had.
They've been able to pass through airport security and connect with her Co conspirators.
But thankfully these are points left of speculation.
But regardless, the fact does remain that something horrible was close to happening, and the potential for it was there as James did have access to firearms, specifically a shotgun, a rifle, and enough ammunition to have forever changed Halifax.
And that's where we're going to direct our attention tonight. In this episode of night Time, we're going to be joined by the Canadian firearms expert Trevor Furlotte, and together we're going to unload James and Lindsey's Arsenal.
In a few moments, we'll get to our conversation with Trevor, but I want to give a bit of a background before we dive into this.
Namely, I'll tell you what we know about the firearms involved in the plot.
And how we know about them.
During part three of the series, titled Lindsey James and the Valentine's Day massacre, Lindsey had explained that the pair chose to carry out the attack in Halifax as James had access to guns owned by his father.
And of course, it would be easier to get Lindsey to Halifax than it would be to get James and the guns into the United States. What a world.
However, during our episode Lindsey didn't give much detail on the weapons, the amount of ammunition, or how exactly the pair plan to use.
But that said, we have access to nearly every word Lindsey and James said to each other.
They didn't once communicate by phone or by video chat.
In fact, aside from the initial communications on Tumblr, the entirety of their relationship played out on Facebook Messenger and the 1200 Plus page log of their chat.
It gives us a detailed view of nearly every aspect of this plot.
So to obtain some facts about the firearms James had access to, Trevor and I had to look no further than an archive of this Facebook conversation and the selfish gene sent to Lindsey holding the weapons.
So to provide a bit of context before we get to the conversation about the firearms, I'll share the first mention of the weapons just as it occurred in the conversation between James and Lindsey.
The reading you're about to hear is a portion of the conversation occurring only two days after the pair began chatting at this point.
In the chat, the pair were communicating about nothing of consequence.
It was basically what do you do for fun getting to know you type conversation.
However, when discussing fashion of all things, James first tells his new friend Lindsey about his ambitions to commit a mass shooting and describes the weapons he would use.
LINDSAY: I think it would have been too big for me anyway.
JAMES: How much would one of those black civil war jackets cost?
LINDSAY: I have no idea prices on these.
Things tend to be sort of.
Random you might get.
Lucky and find one at a low price, but I'd expect to spend.
A few 100.
JAMES: I'll see if they have any at the Army surplus place next time I go.
LINDSAY: Then we can coordinate outfits and look ******
JAMES: That'd be sick.
LINDSAY: And just sort of terrify everyone.
JAMES: One of my favorite hobbies.
LINDSAY: Where do you usually scare people?
JAMES: Just in public in general.
LINDSAY: Because I was just thinking, if you had a usual hanger or something, I'd show up there too, and then people would be like, oh God, there's two.
Of them now.
JAMES: That would be perfect.
LINDSAY: And we just sort of exchange conspiratorial glances before staring at them.
JAMES: Hopefully sending them running.
LINDSAY: What a great way to spend a day just terrorizing normal, inferior people.
JAMES: I hope to do that on a major scale someday.
I have everything I need as well.
LINDSAY: Do tell.
JAMES: Rifle, shotgun, outfit, ammo knife.
I only have 13 bullets for the rifle though, so I'll have to make them count.
It's also a single shotgun can only fit one shell at a time, but it's better than nothing.
Wish I had a partner that could take the shotgun while I take the hunting rifle.
Way less chance of getting attacked, jumped if I had a partner.
LINDSAY: I've never fired a gun before.
I've lived such a pitiful, sheltered existence.
Though it's something I like to think about.
JAMES: I haven't either, which is why I'd have to be extra precise.
JORDAN: The next excerpt I'll share occurs a few days later, eerily on Christmas Day no less.
At this point in the conversation again, only days after meeting, Lindsay and James had just come to the agreement that they'd carry out some sort of mass murder event together.
In the excerpt, you'll hear read, Lindsay and James are putting together the first pieces in their plan.
Here's how they decided who would use which weapon.
JAMES: I wish it could happen.
LINDSAY: Anything can happen when we.
Put our minds to it.
JAMES: Very good point.
LINDSAY: Besides, you're working with me.
I've already done a lot in my life.
This should be easy.
JAMES: Now we just need money.
LINDSAY: I'm pretty sure I'll already be getting some for graduating, but either way I'll need to get a job within a month or so.
Maybe get some of my stories published?
JAMES: That could work.
LINDSAY: I'll try to look like a nice, productive member of society before I end up wreaking havoc.
JAMES: I've tried and failed that already.
LINDSAY: You feel like you don't belong with society, right?
If that makes sense.
JAMES: Yes, I want no ******* part of it.
Get a job, go to school.
I just want to leave this place and take people with me.
LINDSAY: We I always had a feeling I'd die young.
Like it's what I was meant to.
JAMES: I feel the same way, like I was never born with the mindset, ability to interact with people properly, function properly on my own, or get into a relationship, have kids, get married.
And get a job.
I don't want any of that ****
I want to sleep forever.
LINDSAY: It was just about two years ago that I attempted suicide.
But I lived a year later.
Succumbed to alcohol poisoning twice.
Now I'm realizing that I didn't die then because there's a different way I was meant to die, and with us together, it can happen.
JAMES: I feel the same way, like I've known where all my dad's weapons were for about six months and I've barely been holding off using them.
Maybe this could be what I was meant to hold off for, I don't know.
LINDSAY: I mean, I'm not really one to believe in spiritual hocus pocus, but, you know, just from talking to you these past few days, I feel like Faith's involved here.
Or like we must have known.
Each other in a past life or something.
JAMES: Yeah, it's possible.
I just want to find out what happens after death so bad.
And if there is nothingness, I'll be too dead to care.
LINDSAY: And I came out of my years long depression at just the same time I started posting all that Columbine stuff.
I think it's a sign.
JAMES: Where would you want to hit if you did come here?
And what weapon would you want? The lever action hunting rifle with 13 bullets, or the single action shotgun with 25 birdshot shells?
LINDSAY: I really have no idea this.
Is all rather unfamiliar to me.
JAMES: You can have the shotgun then, more ammo.
LINDSAY: Sounds good.
I'm still somewhat drunk.
JORDAN: These short pieces are enough to give us a view of the firearms available to the plotters in a basic sense.
However, James Gamble also took many photographs of himself posing with the guns.
Many of these photos ended up in the chat logs via picture messages, and many others were posted to his Tumblr page.
When I shared the photos with our soon to be guest, Trevor Furlotte, he instantly recognized the shotgun and the rifle as very common models of firearms.
In fact, Trevor has each of these in his personal collection.
So Needless to say, Trevor knows a lot about these firearms, so I guess there's no need to spend any more time setting this up.
Let's get to the conversation with my friend Trevor for a lot.
A highly respected firearms enthusiast, advocate and expert.
TREVOR: My name is Trevor fraught, and I am the vice president of the Russian Bush County support and Gun Club, one of the largest gun clubs in Atlantic Canada.
I'm a certified range safety officer.
I'm a firearms instructor, a Co host on a firearms related podcast, and a avid competition shooter and recreational or occasional hunter.
JORDAN: You know Trevor, when I was looking into this story, one kind of aspect that comes out.
A lot is the idea of would the pair Lindsey and James even have been able to, you know, pull off what they were threatening to do given the firearms they have?
And and and I knew I know nothing about firearms.
So I sent you the photos of of James holding the two guns in question.
Were you able to identify what they are?
TREVOR: Not only was I able to identify them, I own both of those firearms in question.
One is very common firearm in Canada.
It is a single shot Kuy 12 gauge shotgun.
So single shot means that the barrel on the firearm is essentially a pipe.
It holds one round of ammunition.
At a time, it's a break action.
You push a lever on the back of the receiver.
The gun breaks in two.
Put a round of ammunition in it, close it up, cocked the hammer, press the trigger.
Then you have to manually open it again.
Put it in another round of ammunition, close it up.
And fire again.
It's very it's fallen out of fashion.
In recent years because of the advent of fancier pump action pump action shotguns and semi automatic shotguns that goose hunters and upland hunters would use.
But for decades, and that was probably the most popular shopping in in Canada, a lot of Canadian homes had Cooley shotgun.
And very common hunting shotgun for shooting grouse and rabbits.
JORDAN: So that was yeah.
That was the shotgun.
What about the the other?
Like more rifle style, but what's that?
TREVOR: Yeah, the other one appears to be a savage model 99. Now they came in a in a couple of different calibers.
Looking at it, I think it's 300 savage, which is not a very common caliber these days. The one that I have, for example, was made in 1954 and that one looks to be able to the same vintage.
And the action on that firearm is a lever action.
So it's not self loading necessarily.
You put the cartridges into the top of the receiver and.
Then there's a lever.
Think of like a cowboy gun from back in the Old West of the Spaghetti Western movies.
How when the cowboy would shoot then you would have to manually manipulate this lever and what that lever does is it it pulls a a fired cartridge over the chamber and when you close the lever it loads another cartridge.
So every time you you fire.
The gun you you press the trigger.
Then you've got to.
Manually cycle this lever to tackle the empty bowl.
And chamber another round of live ammunition to the chamber.
Not terribly slow fire, but are incredibly slow to reload.
So this firearm had a lot of things going against it for their intended purpose.
The media was throwing around mass shooting, mass shooting, and I don't want to play semantics with, you know?
How many people have to die for it to be considered a mass shooting?
But listening to all the episodes, and I listened to them all again today on my way home, they had 13 rounds of ammunition.
At one time they talked about saving 2 for themselves, so now they're down to 11 rounds of ammunition.
He was going to try and kill his parents, so if that had worked he would have been down to 9 rounds of ammunition.
And then he was.
James was supposed to kill Randall so they would have arrived at the mall with eight, eight rounds of ammunition.
So they would have had enough to fill the firearm once and shoot 5 rounds and then put four more in.
Had he got through?
The first five rounds, when he stopped to reload it would have them already.
It would have been so slow to reload that everybody just would've ran for the exits.
And the shotguns is arguably faster, but it's to reload because you just crack it open and put another bullet in.
But it's one bullet at a time, so very slow.
JORDAN: Going to the shotgun for a second, like I've never touched one, but to crack it open and take a bullet, you know, take a bullet out and whatnot, like, how much strength would you have to have to do that?
Like, I'm thinking Lindsey.
She's really tiny.
I'm guessing she's 90 pounds.
Like, would it be easy for her to crack open?
Gun and take a bullet out as somebody who again, she said it herself in the Facebook log.
She's never fired a weapon, so she'd be a complete amateur.
TREVOR: She had a couple of things working in store.
So one, so you and I I mean, this will be an audio show, but you can actually see me right now 'cause.
We're doing this via Skype with a camera.
So this tab on the back of the receiver here, that's what you have to depress.
And as you can see there, it does take some effort to actually get it.
So she would have to struggle with that.
And then she manually, you know, puts in the shell.
Well, now, what if she's not shown how to use this?
Pull the trigger all you want.
Just 'cause you put a bullet into this gun does not mean it's going to fire.
If she doesn't have a lot of firearms experience, she wasn't brought up hunting with this on this particular model, firing with her father, she would almost certainly, under the stress of what was happening, forget to do this and that is.
Caught the hammer.
So once the hammer is cocked then when you depress the trigger the gun with fire.
Now you have to open it up again.
Well, this one ejected the spent casing for me, and then I would drop another one in so you'd be fumbling in your pocket for loose rounds of ammunition.
I don't know, the jacket or hoodie or something and you're, you know, she said she was gonna wear skinny jeans, not conducive to holding ammunition and getting it in.
And out of your pockets.
So they really.
Their lack of experience in firearms really were contributed to not understanding the logistics and the poor logistics that went into this.
So a lot of people said I don't know if.
Pull it off and you know other school shooters and other mass shooters have had fibers, experience, have gone to ranges, have taken lessons.
They didn't have time to do that.
She's never shot a gun.
This 12 gauge, 90 or 90 pound girl, he's going to knock her around.
The other thing is.
When they start lighting rounds of ammunition off inside a building.
Their auditory they, I mean, they're they're actually going to be in physical pain from the ringing in their ears from shooting a gun inside a building.
12 Gauge is is loud.
The rifle is incredibly loud, so that would have also caused extra stress and distraction to Oh my God like this thing is is knocking me around and my ears are absolutely ringing.
JORDAN: So yeah, I.
Get the shock on that part.
I really understand.
So I like I can envision you opening it and putting the new bulletin and all that stuff with with the rifle, which seems to be the more, I guess, the more better suited of the two guns for what?
They were planning.
When he hasn't loaded and he has say five shots in there.
Can those shots be one after the other, or is there anything you have to do before you take a shot and go on to the next one?
TREVOR: Well, why don't I load it up and actually show you how it works and then we can discuss it how?
Would that be OK?
JORDAN: Sounds great.
TREVOR: Now obviously for the listeners, I am not loading a firearm in my home.
I have dummy cartridges for the purposes of this exercise with Gordon here.
It's illegal to load a firearm.
Where it's not legal to discharge the firearm.
So alright, so the first thing we have to do, Jordan, is we've got to get the receipt, the action will open so we can insert the cartridges into the firearm.
And you know one of the problems that they may run into, but I'm assuming that James probably had experienced this fire and there's a little tab down here that's a safety and if you.
Don't know about that.
You can't even open the action.
So you gotta depress the safety.
Now the action is open.
Now you put the bullets in one at a time.
See how fast this is going?
And I'm experienced in firearms and with this particular gun, but it's just the way it is.
You just cannot.
Load this thing fast enough and I'm loading this off a table.
I'd have to be pulling the cartridges out of my cold pocket or.
Something so alright, so now I've got five in there.
close this up.
So now there would be a bullet in chamber.
So what happens, Jordan, is you would press the trigger and now you've got to do this.
Wash my hand.
And then close it again.
Press the trigger.
Open that up.
This would be hilarious if anyone was watching.
And the gun is jammed
I can't even get.
That that dummy round over the Chamber.
JORDAN: So right now, there's a guy who's much bigger than you, on top of you, elbowing you in the face.
TREVOR: More often than not.
You know, I learned this from my threat assessment training the and we learned in this.
In this case too, they were suicidal and they did plan to shoot themselves when they were done.
And there's been many instances in the United States where some of those in issued a place the second they're confronted with.
From any kind of resistance, they shoot themselves. There's one story where that person AR15 jammed and a civilian who was licensed carry handgun point is hanging.
Soon as he got the air 15 unjammed, he shot himself with it.
So, yeah, you can see it's kind of cumbersome.
Now, in fairness, these are already fired cartridges and they swell up a little bit, so they don't go in and out of the Chamber very well.
So it's not really a fair test.
JORDAN: But it still gives a great idea, like even just hearing how long it took you to load it, that's again, that's you an expert sitting down at a table doing this.
If you're standing people screaming, you have a mask on 'cause, he would have been wearing a screen mask.
It's going to take a lot longer and like you said, you know, the malls clearing out at this point, somebody may grab you.
And even in his his logs, the chat logs, he was terrified of the idea of people giving resistance and possibly getting their hands on him.
So I don't know it it definitely hearing you're seeing you hold the guns.
And load them it it gives me a different kind of perspective in your mind with the with the weapons that they had.
But if they had gotten in the mall with those weapons?
How do you, how do you see it playing out?
Do you do you think it would have been the massacre that the media maybe LED it to believe or Lindsay and James thought it could have been?
TREVOR: Well, with only eight rounds of rifle ammunition, we don't know how many rounds of 12 gauge and what kind of 12 gauge.
If they went in there with birdshot, birdshot, old gauge ammunition, it's called birdshot for a reason.
It's really good on birds and that's about it.
So there would have been injuries, but probably no death from from the 12 gauge unless they were like literally point blank.
Which no one is going to stand still and and let them get shot, you know, let somebody shoot them so.
And he assuming they got in there with all 13 rounds of ammunition.
And assuming they could hit some targets, I think probably the worst we've seen would have been maybe five people shot.
I don't know how fatally.
I don't know how proficient he would have been.
I don't know if he ever fired that firearm.
JORDAN: Yeah, he's. I think he.
Said he had never shot.
It I I believe his.
Experience with the gun is walking around his bedroom, holding a gun, taking pictures.
TREVOR: Yeah, and hopefully not practicing to load it so, but as I said, any loss of life is too much obviously.
But thank goodness they they were not planned, they didn't understand firearms.
And I mean they obviously were going to use what they had access to and they should not have had access to.
It's been claimed that the firearms belonged to his father.
So somehow, obviously, because he took pictures of himself with his father firearms, he had access to these firearms, unlawful access.
The only person who can access your firearms is the licensed firearm owner, so I'm not sure how up to speed.
Maybe that home was with Canadian firearms laws and and safe.
Stores laws, but he had access to to them and.
I think that.
Had he got through the 1st 5 rounds and somebody close puts a chair across the back of his head and they mass?
Shooting it over.
But you never want to, you know.
You only I'm not.
I'm not advocating that by any stretch of the imagination.
Get yourself as far away as fast as you can and don't try.
And be a hero.
It's very real possibility that someone could have definitely tossed the chair into his face and taken him out.
So chances are it would have been a ***** and they would have got nothing done.
But I mean, even if they got one person killed, that's one too many, right?
JAMES: I'm 6 feet tall.
TREVOR: Just about look how big this gun is.
JAMES: Like well, how?
TREVOR: Am I going to get this gun in the mall?
JORDAN: Not not only that they were going to take the bus to the mall.
And they also had plans to bring him a bunch of Molotov cocktails.
TREVOR: Oh Jesus.
JORDAN: On the bus.
TREVOR: Now the shark unknown.
Let me show you something about the shotgun.
The shotgun could've been brought into the mall because.
It wouldn't be hard to put in some kind of duffel bag.
cause the unique thing about a shotgun.
This kind of shotgun is what's this?
That part comes off.
What's now my the longest part is this barrel, and this barrel is between 20 and three inches.
TREVOR: So less than three feet.
JORDAN: For people out there, Trevor, who are interested in guns, maybe they don't realize that there's a popular Canadian podcast for firearms enthusiasts.
Where can they hear more of you?
TREVOR: Well, that's slamfire radio.com, so we're in all your usual podcast catcher apps, and of course on our website and Facebook and Instagram.
JORDAN: Second, I want to bookend this discussion by again restating the fact that any loss of life is tragic.
If one shot had been fired in the Halifax Shopping Center Food Court, it would have been unimaginable.
In our conversation, we simply set out to consider what exactly these weapons would have been capable of in the inexperienced hands of Lindsay Souvenir Roth and James Gay.
Fortunately, an anonymous tipster made a call to Crime Stoppers and stop this plot dead in its tracks.
Thanks to anonymous tipster, these firearms are being unloaded in a speculative discussion as opposed to being done by a SWAT team on the scene of yet another mass shooting.
Now, when we return for our next episode, we'll continue to examine the concepts associated with the story of Lindsay souvenir off and the Valentine's Day shooting plot.
But until then, we'll conclude.
This episode of night time.
I want to end with a few thanks.
A big thank you goes out to Trevor for a lot for taking the time to join us and provide his unique insight on the capabilities of these firearms.
If any of you listening are interested in firearms related discussion, subscribe to Trevor Show Slamfire radio.
It should be available wherever.
You get night time.
A huge shout out goes to the Canadian bands Vox Omnia and Paragon cause for providing the musical and ambient themes for this episode.
You can check out both great bands by following the links in this episode show notes.
A big thank you to Tyler of the Westside Fairy Tales Podcast and Lisa of The Secret Life of Weddings podcast.
Tyler and Lisa played the parts of Lindsay and James in the reenactments of the Facebook chat she heard earlier.
Now, I'll be honest, I'm never crazy about reenactments, but I thought including a few short pieces.
Would add some context to my discussion with.
Suffer and I think the actors hit a home run on it.
Now, on the topic of these reenactments, please let me know what you thought of the ones included in this episode, and let me know what, if any, you'd like me to include in upcoming episodes related to this story.
Now I'll end this with the biggest thanks of all.
I want to send a huge thank you to everyone who's listening.
Without you, I'd have no excuse to spend so much of my free time on this show.
For anyone out there who wants more night time, please check out the Patreon group for.
As little as.
A dollar a month you can support the creation of the show and access the supporter exclusive feed, which provides ad free early releases of episodes in addition to prior episodes no longer available on this main feed you can visit by joining patreon.com.
Slash Night Time podcast.
With that said, I'd like to thank the current patrons of the show and welcome the newest members to the group, Richard, B, Keith, Nolan, Alyssa, Martin, Angie, and Kelly from Slamfire Radio.
I appreciate your generous support at night.
And for anyone else who'd like to support the show but can't help financially, you can give me a big hand by telling your friends about me and leaving a positive review on Apple Podcasts or equivalent.
If any of you listening wanna step to date with my activities on and off the show, follow me on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram.
I use the handle at nighttime pod.
If you have any story ideas or feedback on the show, I'd love to hear from you at email@example.com.
And until next time, take care of each other.
Hug your loved ones tight and.
Let me know if you see anything weird.
Look what I was thinking I could share online.
If you ever decide you want to do it, whether it's you or them, you could do a demonstration with the exact guns, like do a video or something.
TREVOR: I totally want to do that, but I want.
To do it with a.
Like, like, let's say she just got.
Off the airplane.
Alright, look, I'm going to.
Show you how to use these guns.
What have we got?
20 minutes and I'll show you how to use these guns I can't demonstrate shooting them for.
You 'cause we're in an apartment.
JORDAN: And yeah, they don't have enough bullets to.
TREVOR: Right, here's the ammo, here's the guns.
I got a timer that I use for competition and I'm gonna be screaming.
I'm going to be putting you under intense mental stress while you're doing it.
Go load the gun.
Load the gun.
Load the gun.
Shoot, shoot and people are screaming.
And freaking out to see how.
JORDAN: And that would be really cool if.
If you get an opportunity and you do it like that, that would be awesome.
TREVOR: I want to do it with.
You guys, that means I've.
Got to get us on another scope for range.
JORDAN: Oh, that would be really cool.
TREVOR: OK, well if you're if you're up for it, let me try and set it up.
JORDAN: Yeah, whenever.
Whenever you're in town, we'll do it.
TREVOR: Well, there's an an indoor range that I go at before matches on Saturdays and I'll be back in town at the end of the month for a match.
JORDAN: Well, let's do it.
TREVOR: All right, we'll set something up.
I'll send you the exact date soon.
JORDAN: Yeah, dinner's on me.
TREVOR: Oh, sweet. Alright, cool man.
JORDAN: Awesome buddy.
Thanks so much.
TREVOR: Thanks bud.
JORDAN: Bye bye.
6. Lindsay and the Columbiners
JORDAN: Welcome back to an ongoing series exploring the life in the crime of Lindsay souvenir of the young woman convicted of conspiracy to commit murder as a result of her role in the foiled Halifax Shopping Center Valentine's Day shooting plot.
In the last entry in this series, Park 5 unloading James and Lindsey Arsenal, we were joined by firearms expert Trevor Furlotte, who helped us understand the capabilities of the rifle and shotgun.
Jean Gamble had planned to contribute to this plot.
And how the?
Plotters inexperience may have come into play had an anonymous.
Tips do not change the course of this story.
In this episode, we'll review an altogether different aspect of Lindsay souvenir off story.
Rather than focusing on the specifics of the Valentine's Day shooting plot like we did in Part 5, we'll instead look at the subculture that both Lindsay and James were members of, an association that had served.
Initially bring them together and then to provide them with some of the dark inspiration for their plot to shoot, kill and die together in the Halifax Shopping Center Food Court.
Tonight, in this episode of night Time, we'll enter the strange world of Lindsay souvenir off and the column binders.
COLUMBINE FAN: Another shout out.
About my Eric Harris pillow room of my pillow.
JORDAN: During our time with Lindsay, we were left with a lot of uncomfortable things to consider, and that's even if we exclude the mass shooting.
Hearing her discuss her connections with Nazism was very upsetting to a large portion of the show's audience. My e-mail inbox can prove that if anyone needs to see it, but at least to me, when I consider our current social climate, her ideological views don't seem as rare as I had always thought them to be.
Turns out in 2019, racism, sadly, is alive and well.
The thing that really surprised me, however, was her association with the subculture referred to as column biners.
The world of the column Biners was completely.
New to me.
And Lindsay story served as my introduction.
Shortly after Lindsay's arrest, when the news of the foiled plot began spreading, the press quickly began to refer to Lindsay and James as being obsessed with the Columbine High School massacre.
Initially I had simply thought this was the presses way of saying it was some sort of copycat type crime.
But as I followed the developments in the case and further researched the players in this story, what I quickly learned is that there is in fact a large community of people from all over the world who use their intense interest.
In the Columbine massacre as a sort of twisted glue to hold their large social network together.
Now, of course, I've seen many message boards and groups dedicated to the discussion of specific crimes or missing persons cases.
But the column biners they're different.
This seems to be more like fandom, or even hero worship, than it was about curiosity or research.
It's honestly unlike anything I've ever encountered, and unlike anything I'd ever have expected.
To anyone listening to this that is unfamiliar with the Columbine are's, this episode will be full of surprises. And for those of.
You who are aware?
Of them you'll.
Likely learn some new things about the history of this subculture and how various aspects of the Columbine attack influenced Lindsay and jeans and their plot to kill.
In a few short moments, we'll get to a discussion I had with Rachel Monroe, an American writer and investigative journalist who spent a tremendous amount of time researching the column biners, and who recently completed work on a new book that will feature Lindsay Savannah Roth story.
But before we get to my talk with Rachel.
I want to take some time to give a crash course on the Columbine school shooting and provide a bit of background on how that tragedy influenced Lindsey souvenir off and James Gamble.
NEWS READER #1: Good evening, everyone.
The reaction of so many people today was, Oh no, not again.
Another high school Columbine high in Littleton, Co, this time on the edge of Denver.
It has been a horror, the gunmen [were] fellow students, who rushed the school and opened fire for reasons we do not know yet, for reasons we may never know.
Two of the young killers are dead.
The sheriff says it looks like a suicide mission.
NEWS READER #2: Eyewitnesses say the two gunmen, wearing black trench coats and black mask, came in shooting and began working their way through the school.
Teachers raced ahead to classrooms yelling for students to run.
Someone pulled a fire alarm.
STUDENT WITNESS #1: They started coming in the library and opening fire and shooting out bombs(?).
STUDENT WITNESS #2: There was a guy at a table right next to us, nice to meet her and they just shot him and then walked away and then.
He was just sitting in cold blood.
NEWS READER #2: For hours after the shooting began police.
Were picking their.
Way through the building, looking for the suspects, students who were hiding or trapped, and more victims.
What police and everyone else are looking for now is a reason it violence that toured this quiet school and suburban neighborhood of heart just weeks before graduation.
JORDAN: I think it's safe to assume anyone listening to this.
Has at least a.
Basic understanding and probably some unsettling memories of the Columbine High School massacre, but just in case you're unfamiliar, I'll give you enough information to provide the necessary context for the rest of the episode.
Now that news clip you just heard described some of the chaos that resulted from one of North America's, if not the world's, most well known school shootings.
It happened at Columbine High School, in a town with a population just under 25,000 in Colorado on the morning of April 20th.
1999 two 12th grade students, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, earned a series of homemade explosives they placed in and around their high school.
The first was placed in a Greenbelt several kilometres away from the school.
This was planned to go off 1st and distract emergency response.
Unders II were two duffel bags containing bombs made out of propane tanks. These were placed within the school's cafeteria, and we're time to go off during the lunch hour rush.
In the third bombs, they were built into Eric and Dylan cars.
These were timed to explode as emergency crews descended in response to the cafeteria bombs.
As Eric and Dylan entered the school that morning, armed with knives or variety of firearms and backpacks filled with pipe bombs and ammunition, their plan was to open fire on those fleeing the chaos caused by the cafeteria bombs.
Fortunately, as things turned out, the cafeteria bombs which would have led to an unimaginable number of fatalities, had failed to detonate.
However, that didn't stop Eric and Dylan from roaming the halls, taunting and shooting anyone who crossed their paths.
In the end, after unleashing roughly 47 minutes of terror, Eric and Dylan would take their own lives in the schools library.
Left in their wake, Columbine High School had lost twelve students and one member of faculty, with many others seriously injured.
Now the Columbine attack, it's gone on to change the conversation that surrounds social issues such as school shootings, gun control and bullying.
But it has also gone on to inspire an ever growing list of copycats.
Lindsey, Savannah Roth and James Gamble, perhaps, are among the most upvoted on that list.
In fact, it would be difficult to understand the story of Lindsey James and the Valentine's Day shooting plot without at least a decent understanding of Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold in the Columbine Massacre.
Nearly every aspect of Lindsay and James planning in some way took inspiration from or played amaj to Eric and Dylan.
When I initially reviewed the 1200 page log of the Facebook conversations between Lindsay and James, one of the things that stood out to me was the near constant references to Eric and Dylan in the way in which these references of all.
It started out by Lindsay and James comparing themselves to this murderous couple they idolized.
But as you heard Lindsay described, it quickly got to the point that Lindsay and James believed that in some supernatural way, they had become Eric and Dylan.
It's admittedly very strange and equally.
It is difficult to put in my own words how this deepening obsession presented itself in the plotting of the Valentine's Day shooting.
I think the best way I could explain this to you is to present three separate excerpts from Lindsay and James Facebook conversation to provide examples of how these references to Columbine occurred.
The first excerpt I'll share is from very early on in James and Lindsey relationship.
Only days after connecting and still at a time prior to the birth of their mass shooting plot, the pair briefly discuss some of their friends and do so using the comparisons of Eric and Dylan before.
Ultimately Lindsay and James choose their.
Individual roles in their new relationship.
But to provide some context to this piece, in the world of Columbine, Eric Harris is often said to be the more aggressive and bloodthirsty of the pair, with Dylan Klebold taking on more of a supporting role, motivated more so by his eventual suicide than the actual massacre.
JAMES: How strong is it?
LINDSAY: Depends on how much wine you add to it.
By the way, I can't remember if you've seen photos of me in my black trench coat or not.
JAMES: I think I have.
LINDSAY: There's some on my Facebook page and others on my.
You really should get Skype though.
JAMES: I used to have it.
I'm not a fan of phone calls or interactions where people can see me, hear my voice.
LINDSAY: See, I was just thinking that if you had it, I could introduce you to some people like Sutcliffe.
Judging from Tumblr.
I know you follow her.
She's been a friend of mine for several years now.
JAMES: The name sounds familiar.
LINDSAY: This is her, in case you've forgotten.
Fun fact, she almost shows a birthday with Eric Harris and she acts just like him sometimes too.
And her name happens to be Erica.
JAMES: That's really cool, actually. It's hilarious that Dylan's birthday is on 9/11.
LINDSAY: She's also the reason why I changed.
My Tumblr icon to.
Dylan so I can be him while she's Eric.
Even though I feel I have more in common.
JAMES: With Eric, I feel like I am a combination of the two of them.
LINDSAY: We all are in some way or another, but I'd like to think of it in terms of the relationship dynamic between them.
Like I'm the Eric to some other people, Dylan and Dylan to some other people.
If that makes sense.
JAMES: Yeah, I get it.
I don't really have that, unfortunately.
LINDSAY: How come?
JAMES: Not close enough with anybody?
LINDSAY: Hell, neither am I really like I never made any friends in college ever.
All my friends are online, basically.
JAMES: I only have one friend in real life.
He isn't down for the whole mass murder thing.
But he'd be Dylan, no doubt.
He's taller than me and has long blonde hair.
LINDSAY: And I could be here.
Eric, how about that?
JAMES: That'd be nice.
JORDAN: The next excerpt I'll share occurred weeks later.
At this point, their planning is well underway, and Lindsay and James are beginning to make references to becoming Eric and Dylan rather than simply taking on the role.
In this excerpt, they joke about meeting up with Eric and Dylan in Hell and discuss what they may.
Say to them.
LINDSAY: My slave.
JAMES: I am.
LINDSAY: The one and only.
Like I said, we're so, so lucky.
JAMES: Think about the chain of events that led us here.
LINDSAY: And how we took on the.
Personalities of Eric and Dylan.
JAMES: Exactly which is.
LINDSAY: Been happening all throughout my life without me even realizing it.
JAMES: It's crazy. I got into Columbine way back in 2007.
If only I knew that I'd carry out something similar in a decade.
LINDSAY: I wasn't even into Columbine until like.
These past few months.
Though I had friends who were.
JAMES: Did you know basic things about it though, like their names?
LINDSAY: Yeah, I only started seriously researching it after when for some reason I felt the need to put a school shooting into my novel.
JAMES: And we wouldn't be talking now if you didn't.
It's funny how things work out.
LINDSAY: Whether it's fate or luck or coincidence, it's something.
JAMES: It has to be.
I never really believed in that stuff before.
Maybe it's just an extraordinary coincidence.
LINDSAY: Or it could.
Have all been determined from the beginning.
JAMES: That is also very possible.
All the religious nutjobs will think we are possessed by Satan and that will be burning in hell.
LINDSAY: If we were, at least we'd be able to hang.
Out with Eric and Dylan.
JAMES: Can you imagine what's up guys?
We just beat your high score.
LINDSAY: Hey, Eric, I was you.
For the past few months.
JAMES: What if souls are real and we will end up wandering the earth for eternity?
Death is so ******* fascinating.
JORDAN: The next and final excerpt I'll share has a much different tone.
Not at all playful like what you just heard.
What may come as a surprise to people following this story is that Lindsay and James were incredibly supportive and caring, at least towards each other.
James was very.
Open about his depression and his struggle to delay suicide, and Lindsay always seemed willing to hear.
Him out and.
Provide a shoulder to cry on, so to speak.
In this next piece, which occurred just weeks before Lindsey board at the plane to Halifax, you'll hear James describing his longing for death, and you'll hear Lindsey attempting to comfort him, all in the context of Columbine.
JAMES: I want to die already.
LINDSAY: It'll be better when we die together.
JAMES: I can imagine it when everything is over and we'll find some secluded spot in the mall to go to.
LINDSAY: Comforting each other, knowing we'll be together in death.
JAMES: Do you think you'll be crying?
I'll hug you if you do.
LINDSAY: We'll share one last kiss.
It'll be beautiful.
JAMES: We'll set my phone up in front of us.
Say our final things, then shoot ourselves on camera.
I wish I could be hugging you right now.
I need it bad.
LINDSAY: I'd hug you and I'd hold you.
JAMES: Thank you for not finding me weak, even though I cry constantly.
LINDSAY: It's OK to cry.
JAMES: Thank you.
LINDSAY: I'm always here for you it's what Eric would do for Dylan.
JAMES: I wonder if they ever cried together or what their final moments were like.
LINDSAY: I guess we'll find out.
JAMES: Do you ever feel like after death, you'll get all the answers to all your questions you've ever had?
It'd be nice.
JAMES: I think I'll go to bed soon.
LINDSAY: All right.
JAMES: I'll message you when I wake up tomorrow.
LINDSAY: Good boy.
JORDAN: Those three clips, as unsettling as they are, were shared simply to illustrate the extent that Eric Harris Dylan Klebold in the Columbine attack consumed the thoughts and planning of Lindsay and James.
Had I not looked so closely into this particular story, I would think this obsession was simply a one in a million.
But as I said earlier, Lindsay and James are not as unique as we may think.
There are actually a lot of people who look to the Columbine shooters in a similar fashion.
So now that we've discussed Columbine and how it's found its way into Lindsey and James is planning, we have the necessary context to zoom out and take a better look at this subculture that Lindsey and James were or are members of the Columbine owners.
To assist in helping me unpack this topic, I've invited someone who knows as much, if not more, about the Columbine UHRS and about the story of Lindsay souvenir off than anyone else.
She's an American based journalist who's wrote extensively about the Columbine UHRS and has a book featuring the story of Lindsay Souvenir off set to be released.
In the coming months.
After a short break, we'll be joined by Rachel Monroe.
RACHEL: My name is Rachel Monroe and I am a journalist based in Texas.
I write a lot about crime, among many other things.
I've been following this particular case for a while, and it's going to be part of a book that I'm writing that's coming out in August called Savage Appetite.
JORDAN: Very cool.
Now, how does a journalist in Texas find out about a girl from Illinois coming to Halifax to commit a mass shooting?
How did you learn about this?
RACHEL: Ha ha ha.
Well, I had been interested in and following the subculture of Columbine are's I I first heard about them actually in 2012, so seven years ago and and had been.
Interested in them as an Internet phenomenon for a while.
And then, then, then.
When I heard that some Combiners had actually planned a shooting, it really caught my eye.
cause, I had we and we can talk about, you know my, my take on combiners, but one of the things I had thought.
For a long time and you know.
But what they talk about online is very different from what to do in real.
Life. And so it really.
Made me sit up and pay attention.
JORDAN: Your prior work, like before all this happened with Lindsey, with like, your work with column binders.
How did how did that start?
How did you get in?
Like, is there any reason you became interested in that subculture?
RACHEL: Well, it started.
When I had been living in Baltimore and there was a school shooting that happened as they happened in the.
States fairly regularly.
It wasn't a big, splashy one, and we have so many school shootings in the US now that there are these local ones that never.
Never make the big news.
And so this one happened a few miles away from me and I was.
I just went online to get more information about it and there wasn't a whole lot, but I did find all these Tumblr search results started popping up and that surprised me.
Like, OK, why is this just breaking news on like a trending on Tumblr?
And then I thought one of the people on Tumblr.
Mention something about like the Columbine are community, you know?
I hope this doesn't reflect badly on the Columbine are community.
What is the combiner community?
And so it was just one of those things that happen sometime.
I think a lot of us do this.
You stumble on something weird on the Internet and then next thing I know.
Like 3:00 AM and I've just been, like scrolling for hours, you know, looking at, looking at this weird world that was out there that I had no idea about and just finding it really strange and fascinating.
And troubling and interesting all at once.
JORDAN: Yeah, it's kind of like the same way I found out about it 'cause.
For me, it was, you know, a a plan shooting at my mom at the mall.
I started researching it, and that's when I learned of the Columbine are community, so I kind of had the same experience as you and I I remember when I stumbled upon it, it just seemed like one of those things that are almost too strange.
To be true, like, I couldn't imagine this existing, but you know, and then as you dig in and you see, you know the subculture for what it is, it's, it's very real and you know, and it's not, you know, 10 random people.
It's it's a massive group of people.
RACHEL: Yeah, definitely.
And the more that I started researching it, so I found a there's an academic view.
I think it's French who wrote about how Columbine came to exist online, people who who wrote about Columbine Online and the years after it happened, and according to her.
They're the original Columbine are community, although I don't think they were calling themselves column binders at that point. But there were people on YouTube. This is maybe like 2007, 2008, 2009.
And this was like it tended to be a lot of young men who identified with the Columbine shooters and made videos of themselves striking similar poses.
Uhm, we know that the Columbine shooters were really into videotaping themselves, so these are almost like tribute videos done in the same style.
And then eventually, there were a bunch of copycat shootings, school shootings, other mass shootings in the United States by people who were.
Involved in this fandom, young men who were involved in the standards. So You Tube started cracking down on Columbine content, and according to this researcher, by 2011 it was pretty much gone.
There was nothing, if you were posting anything sympathetic about Columbine, it would get taken down really quickly and so the community.
That had popped up there, vanished. But what I found was at around 2012 when I started looking into it, it had kind of re emerged.
Come on, Tumblr and became a Tumblr phenomenon.
And the interesting thing that was happening there was that instead of being primarily, you know, angry young men, it was it was a lot of like lovesick young women and that.
Was what really surprised me.
JORDAN: Very, yeah.
So they just once they got kicked off of YouTube, so to speak, they kind of reborn on.
I guess Tumblr, which is I didn't.
I didn't know anything about Tumblr either until Lindsay story, so I feel this story makes me feel very old.
RACHEL: Yeah, I mean Tumblr is, as far as I can tell, I think it's the social media, one of the social media networks that tends to skew quite female.
I think it also you a little bit female, but this one more than most.
It's also just the way that it's set up.
It tends to be really popular with fandoms.
And so fandoms for, you know, Harry Potter or One Direction or whatever.
And and so You Tube is sort of more suited to like manifestos, right?
Because it's kind of one person with the, with the video, the Tumblr is this very community oriented.
There are a lot of in.
People are always like reblogging means that other people made it's like very heavy on the meme making, which as you know, Lindsay.
I was really into and I'm kind of talented at and I.
You know, disturbing way, uhm into that. And the other thing that happened in 2012 that kind of influenced this community that I found was that did.
You ever watch the TV show?
American Horror Story.
JORDAN: I saw like a season of it.
RACHEL: OK, yeah, so the first season there is a character that like that cute guy.
And he he.
It's a the storyline is directly referencing Columbine.
That young man is sort of more it's like he's a slightly ambivalent heartthrob, but he's like the heartthrob of that season.
And so a lot of people have this theory that the Columbine fandom on YouTube and the fact that it was like all these girls.
On the, on the.
On the Columbine shooters came out because these girls were watching this TV show.
They're like, oh, look at that cute boy.
They start researching the show it leads them to.
Columbine and then they.
Then they're like, oh, I have.
A crush on these real school shooters.
JORDAN: Oh well, I don't remember that storyline of the show.
Could you just explain that character and how he relates to Columbine?
RACHEL: Yeah, I mean it's pretty undiluted and the.
Entities are going to be spoilers.
If anybody hasn't seen this show that came out, like, you know, seven or.
Eight years ago, he's he's just like.
Kind of a.
This a Moody dreamboat guy who hangs around this haunted house.
And makes eyes at the teenage daughter, the high school aged daughter.
And then it, you know, come to find out that actually he's a ghost.
And he's a ghost because he had been depressed and bullied at school, and he brought a gun to his school and shot a bunch of his classmates in in the library.
You know, that's like that.
They're they're hiding under tables.
I mean, it's directly referencing Columbine.
There's a scene in the show that's very clear, and then he ends up being killed by the police.
He's a ghost, but he's like a cute ghost.
He's also like a ****** It's like he's like.
A ****** Columbine.
Heartthrob ghost very complicated show.
JORDAN: Yeah, well.
What's what's really strange is I made it no secret that the conversations that I had with Lindsay and those original episodes that were heavily added, it it's what you hear in the episodes is probably an hour and a half of probably 4 hours of conversation, but one of the things that I edited out was she was.
Talking about what she's been doing in prison and she had talked in the episodes, people heard her describe a book she wrote called Grit and Glory that really mirrored her and James's story.
But another thing she told me about that didn't make it to the episodes as she's working on a book.
She just, she called it haunt me harder, and it was about if my, if my memory serves me.
It's about a young girl who has recently moved into a house and the host was haunted by a school shooter, and it sounds very, very similar to what you're describing and as that that's just.
I don't know if it means anything or they're just kind of interesting.
With you following column that the Columbine are subculture this this closely have you seen many other cases of people actually you know attempting or performing a mass shooting that were clearly inspired by or were members?
Of the Columbine or subculture?
Like have you seen other Members of this group?
Commit related crimes.
RACHEL: Well, and I guess what I should say is there have been a lot of UM school shooters, people who commit mass, mass violence.
Every single one.
I can think of besides dealing with a.
Young man, so I'll.
Say he who, who?
And they all.
There have been many of them who have been interested in Columbine who had.
Posted on message boards or on you.
Tube or has been shown to have research.
Or otherwise been fascinated with Columbine. So there's there's definitely a link. I think there's something with like several dozen school shooters since 1999 when Columbine happened, had said that they were inspired by Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. So there's certainly a link there, but the Columbine years that I was.
Interested in they were almost all girls, and they were.
Almost all you know like.
Under 18, like I had girls.
Some of them quite young, they were up to something more complicated, it seemed to me.
I mean, obviously it's really disturbing when somebody when when a teenage girl says that she has a crush on somebody who's famous for murder.
I mean, that's just on the surface, really awful and troubling.
And it would.
Be really easy to.
Dismiss them as being wannabe mass murderers themselves, or being crazy or just seeking attention, but I don't know.
I thought that there is.
Like for me, I ended up thinking of.
A lot of what I saw back in 2012 as being a way that.
Girls who were suffering from depression or bullying.
Girls who were who were angry but didn't quite know how.
To say it.
Instead of saying I'm really sad or I'm really angry.
They would say.
I have a.
Crush on this boy who's like, famously sad or famously angry.
I mean this is like.
A classic thing that girls do when they're teenagers.
You kind of can't own your own.
Desires or something.
So instead of being like, I want to play guitar, you have a crush on a boy who plays guitar, right?
And so I kind of thought.
Just as a dark version of that.
It doesn't make it any less troubling, but it makes it a little bit more.
Understandable in a funny way.
JORDAN: Do you see any like this sort of thing?
Do you see any positives coming out of a group like a subculture, like the column biners like does it give to these people who are hurting and kind of loners?
Does it give them something positive in the end or is it all bad?
In your opinion.
RACHEL: I don't think that it is all bad. I mean, it's tricky right at the time and back in 2012, I wrote about them a little bit and I said, you know, these are girls who are finding a community to talk about their pain, to talk about their depression, talk about, you know, their dark thought. They are often, like, really supportive.
Of each other.
They would post things about a hard day they had at school or bullying and other members.
Of this community.
Would validate them or tell them that they were beautiful, or just be kind to them and so in that way.
It did seem.
Like there was some positive that came out.
Of it, but then.
Over time as I kept kind of checking back in.
I saw more and more things that I found really troubling.
I mean, there would be, you know, every time that somebody there was like a new mass shooting, a little fandom would pop up.
And I I remember being really disgusted when Dylan Roof, who shot the people in the church in Charleston.
Uhm, he immediately, if you go on Tumblr, he immediately had a fandom.
You know, of these girls saying like.
I don't care that he.
Was terrible and and racist and a white supremacist, you know, he just needs love.
He just needs my my love.
So these girls were saying, you know, I'm not a racist, but I I just love this murderer who is.
And I don't know, I stopped my my.
Kind of initial.
Rosy take on it started.
To diminish a little bit, to be honest.
JORDAN: And and do you see?
A subculture like the specifically the Columbine UHRS, do you think that it has the potential to be almost like a a breeding ground for these types of events?
Like to like, I'm just thinking if there's a group of young women, primarily, who are, you know, idolizing people who commit mass shootings.
Do you does it seem like it would have the potential to encourage lonely young men to do things to appeal to this group?
Do you like, do you know what I mean?
Like, does it do you see this as encouraging?
RACHEL: Yeah, that's interesting.
Well, you see that a little bit with what Lindsey and James did, right?
Like they a lot of, and I've read their chat transcripts too, and a lot of what they did was thinking about how what they would do would be perceived by the column biners how how it would be reposted, how everybody would.
Look at their pictures.
How everybody would want to read Lindsey's novel and and so.
I mean, that's certainly an instance of.
Some motivation right there. Uhm.
JORDAN: Yeah, they they made it clear that there the plan that they had was more about how it would be perceived by fellow column liners than how it would be perceived by the members of the public that would, you know, be reacting to it.
RACHEL: Yeah, well, I mean, I.
Think they also that there are.
Some places in there where they're talking about being.
International news or?
You know, is Lana Del Rey gonna write a song about us?
But yeah, I mean, it's tricky, right?
It's this is something that we're dealing with on the Internet all the time.
How do you preserve space for people to express alternative ideas and use it?
Maybe we find uncomfortable.
But that, you know can.
Deserve to live in the in the public.
Sphere and then how do you?
Kind of shut down speech that crosses the line.
Where where is that line?
And I don't know if if we figured out a good way yet.
Tumblr last August did say that did make a statement that they were.
Going to be cracking down on content that explicitly glorified mass shooters.
And you know, I've never been a person who's like that into censorship.
Uhm, but I have to say I was kind of like, yeah, I sort of think that's a good idea.
JORDAN: Yeah, I I think when I hear of like censorship in that level, I think it's a good idea for Tumblr.
But it's also like the whole whack a mole thing.
It's, you know, if that's no longer on Tumblr, there's just going to be some other venue for it.
So I think it's an individual company.
Shutting down or blocking this type of thing?
Content, I think it's it's more so to protect that company than it is to shut down that language and that you know content from existing.
I think that the the Internet is just, you know, it's it's so big and it it turns our small little towns and our bedrooms into these massive metropolises where, you know, there's anybody into any random thing so.
RACHEL: Right. Well, yeah.
JORDAN: You know, the Columbine or subculture could never, in my mind anyway, could never exist without the Internet because these people from across the world need to be brought together much like another subculture that.
Is you is very unique as like, you know, like the furry, furry movement or whatever, like the people those people like without the Internet.
How would these people realize that they all like dressing up as animals and acting like animals together?
You know, it's a completely different thing than the Columbine or thing, but it's just like, I don't think there's a way when you bring a bunch of people.
Together, I think they're going to find each.
RACHEL: I mean I guess the the.
Maybe the counterargument to?
But when you look at something like the Combiner community, there are some people who, some people in that fandom or whatever who maybe wouldn't will get there no matter what.
But I think then there are some other people who get kind of.
Will then just be just kind of.
On a whim.
Or because, like something catches their eye, or.
And then the next thing you know, they're like kind of deeply into this thing and and.
If you minimize their chance.
If you minimize their chance to stumble on, you know this.
Internet world where people think murder is great, then then maybe they'll find a different way to channel their anger, or to talk about their.
The problems in their life.
JORDAN: Yeah, and that's a good point, especially in looking at this through the lens of Lindsay story, because her fastener obsession, I guess, with Columbine only lasted her a couple of months and she described it in my interview where she was looking for Columbine information while researching her book and then she ended up.
Was getting sucked into this other world, which kind of led to two or three months of obsession with Columbine ending with her getting on a plane to go to Nova Scotia to commit a mass shooting.
So I guess yeah, like if if that content hadn't existed on Tumblr and was instead through some weird backdoor on the Internet that was hard to.
Maybe a vulnerable, sensitive person you know wouldn't have found it.
RACHEL: Right, and trouble.
She would have had all the troubles in her life anyway, but maybe they wouldn't have taken this expression and it's it is just alarming how?
An obsession that's so brief can really.
Change so much.
JORDAN: The the prior work you did and the writing you did about column binders in that subculture, does that still exist somewhere?
Like, is there somewhere that people who want to learn about this more can read what you've done?
RACHEL: Yeah, I wrote an essay called Killer Crush on a website called Ball A WL AL and that was that was about my my initial discovery of the the subculture and full of my thoughts about it and and how the surprising ways.
In which I related.
To some of these girls, even.
Though they also really.
Creeps me out.
JORDAN: And you mentioned you're writing a book that will include Lindsay story and I I believe a pretty major way, although the the books still a little ways out.
What you got to say?
About the book at this point.
RACHEL: So the book comes out in August 20th and it's called Savage appetites.
I've been calling it a meta true crime book.
It's about the obsession with true crime, particularly women obsession with true crime.
It's always been really interesting to me how I guess your podcast is an exception, but so much of the.
Uh, content out there is about crime has is made by women or has an audience with primary primarily female.
Which is surprising, right 'cause most murderers are men, and actually most murder victims are also men.
So violent crime is sort of a male world, but then reading about consuming stories about violent crime is the very female obsession.
And so I.
Looked at four different women over the course of the past 100 years who each became fascinated with a crime that it didn't happen to her.
And so the the most recent one is Lindsay.
And they each became obsessed, kind of with a different figure in the crime stories is a woman who became obsessed with detectives and somebody else.
Became obsessed with victims.
Somebody else who became kind of a defender took on the defender role, getting somebody out of prison, and then Lindsey, who obviously became obsessed with some killers.
JORDAN: Where will people be able to get this?
Or or is it too far too?
Far away to tell you.
RACHEL: Can you can preorder it right now, actually, believe it or not, on Amazon or.
In your favorite.
Local independent bookstore.
Just look up savage appetites.
My name is Rachel Monroe.
JORDAN: I want to end this discussion by again restating the fact that neither Rachel nor I believe that all column binders are on the path to committing violent acts.
However, it's hard to not see a connection between what Lindsey and James Plan to do and their obsession with the Columbine shooting.
An anonymous tipster made a call to Crime Stoppers and prevented something like Columbine from occurring at the Halifax Shopping Center.
In our next episode in this series, we'll continue to examine the concepts associated with the story of Lindsay souvenir off and the Valentine's Day mass shooting plot.
And with that.
We'll conclude this episode of night time a big thank you to Rachel Monroe for taking some time out of her busy schedule to discuss the column.
Binders with me.
I'll be anxiously awaiting Rachel book and planned to invite her back tonight time after its release to discuss the book in more detail.
A huge shout out.
To the Canadian bands Vox, Omnia and Paragon cause for providing the musical and ambient themes for this episode. You can check out both great bands music by following the links in this episode's notes.
A big thank you to Tyler of the Westside Fairy Tales Podcast and Lisa of The Secret Life of Weddings Podcast for again playing the parts of Lindsay and James and the reenactments you heard.
Now I'll end.
7. Lindsay, the Internet, and Radicalization
JORDAN: Welcome back to an ongoing series exploring the life and crime of Lindsay souvenir of the young woman convicted of conspiracy to commit murder as a result of her role in the foiled Halifax Shopping Centre Valentine's Day shooting.
In the last.
Episode in this series titled Part 6, Lindsey and the Column Biners.
We were joined by investigative journalist Rachel Monroe, who helped us better understand the strange but widespread subculture that Lindsey Savannah Roth found both a home and a Co conspirator in.
But despite having covered Lindsey connection to a group that looks up to the perpetrators of a horrific school shooting as folk heroes, we aren't done with the anti social group she was or is a member of.
Lindsey, as anyone who's been following this series knows is a Nazi.
In fact, she's perhaps even more devoted than she appeared during her appearances on the show, as the majority of this discussion surrounding her ideological views was not included in the episodes.
There were several reasons for that editing decision, but chief among them is the simple fact that I was much more interested in how she became a Nazi.
Then I was about the specific beliefs of a Nazi.
So at this point in the series, we've already heard Lindsay described her personal views on the route she took towards Nazism.
But we're going to dig a bit D.
Tonight, in this episode of night Time, we'll enter the frightening world of Lindsay, the Internet and radicalization.
In the days and weeks after releasing an episode of night Time, I often hear from people connected to the stories I've covered, be it friends or family members of the people involved, citizen detectives who follow the case, or journalists or researchers that are connected to the story in some capacity.
My coverage of Lindsey Savannah Roth story certainly was no exception.
I heard from people from all across the spectrum.
The guest of this episode tonight was in fact one of them. Mack Lamoureux is an investigative journalist with vice.com. Mac is well known and probably as respected.
As he is hated for his work investigating the far right and other extremist movements in Canada, we originally connected as Mac was interested in the role the Internet played in Lindsay's connection to Nazism.
And after speaking to him and going on to read a few of his pieces covering websites and people connected to Lindsay, my eyes were opened to a different facet of the story.
I hadn't given as much thought as I probably should have.
Now, I found it all fascinating, and as such, I assumed many of you well as well. So I invited Mac to share his work and some of his ideas on the internet's role in radicalization.
With all of you.
But our talk is about more than just the Internet facilitating extremist radicalization.
Mac knows a lot about people and websites directly related to Lindsey souvenir off, and when you hear about it, you may change your opinions on some aspects of her story.
Now, I only covered Lindsey interest in Nazism in a very light.
Scratching the surface type way and I didn't inject many of my personal opinions, but I will say this obviously Lindsey ideological belief seems to conflict with her personal identity and background, and perhaps because of that it's easy to roll her eyes in moker for labeling herself in Nazi.
But as you'll hear in the discussion with Mack, Lindsay was actually closely connected with some very dangerous and very influential members of the Internet far right neo-Nazi underbelly.
The mainstream coverage of her story and this crime didn't seem to get into this part of her history.
Those of you listening.
Followed this story closely.
May be surprised by some of what Mac and I get into.
So without any further ado, let's bulk on Mac Lamourous and get into a discussion about Lindsey, the Internet, and radicalization.
MACK: I'm Mack Lamoureux.
I'm a reporter with Vice Canada.
Before that I was with CBC Edmonton.
I report quite a bit on far right extremism, both within Canada and the United States.
Lately, that's kind of meant reporting on Adam, often whether or not that neo-Nazi terrorist cell is in Canada.
Uhm, the anti Islam militia within Alberta, the 3%, you know, the anti Islam St Patrol Group, sort of old and that sort of thing.
JORDAN: So yeah, yeah.
How did how did you get into like this, this radicalization and these far right groups?
Like how did you get into researching this stuff?
MACK: So probably would have started.
3-4 years ago in around 2015 where I noticed online that there was kind of a jump in far right groups in Canada.
And I was.
Actually looking for that because I knew.
Knew that in 2008, when Barack Obama was elected in the states, there was a massive jump in far right groups and malicious.
So I thought when?
OK, when Trudeau got elected and we went from a right wing government to a.
Left wing. Let's see.
If maybe we're gonna have a similar.
Jump, and lo and behold.
We did, and I noticed that one.
This sort of Odin.
We're actually recruiting in a far right.
Facebook Group I had.
Joined to kind of watch and so on.
More or less.
Just tried to join them and I did, uh, I went under a fake name and I joined their group for a day and got their bylaws, published them and kind of.
Out of this.
Group that they were forming within Canada.
And ever since then, I've just been reporting on these groups, and through that I've ended up speaking to a bunch of.
Former neo Nazis.
Who left the left?
I've spoken to, you know, militia members, I've spoken to former neo-Nazi terrorists, I've spoken to quite a few people on the far right spectrum.
If you will.
So I guess that would be my entryway into kind of looking into far right radicalization.
JORDAN: No, you and I met through Lindsay story and and when we did meet you, you've already known a lot about Lindsay story and had even wrote a I think a piece or two before we even met about it.
Like how did you, how did you learn about?
What happened with Lindsay in Halifax here at the you know, the plot at the mall, like how do you recall first learning about?
MACK: I think I found out about it in the same way most people found out about it.
I just read about it on the news and I just remember thinking this is nuts.
And then it more and more stuff kept coming out.
You had Cox swastika.
Iron March, neo Nazis.
Uhm, Columbine obsession.
And I just remember being, I wouldn't say obsessed, but it was definitely like.
A story that I think.
I and many other Canadians were just.
We followed quite.
Closely, because it was just so wild.
JORDAN: Most recently you wrote an article about about Lindsay that kind of looked at it from the angle of how Internet radicalization may have played a role and you know where where she ended up, you know, in prison here in Canada.
But even before that article you did a in depth piece on fascist forge.
And iron March. And that kind of relates to Lindsay, because that article made quite a few references to an ex-boyfriend of hers named Slava Rose, which is the guy she hinted at in the episode.
As an online boyfriend that you know was foolish and it ended badly, but why don't you tell me a little bit of boat, fascist, forge iron merch and slab rose, and how this all relates to Lindsey Savannah Roth?
MACK: So it all kind of goes down to the man that you were referring to, Alexander.
Slava Rose, who's this?
Kind of mysterious Russian man who is incredibly influential in the modern day neo-Nazi fascist movement.
Would you ever want to call it the the most extreme side of?
You the white nationalist movement, he come founded a website called Iron March and I believe around 2015. Now Iron March is it's a site completely inspired by this notion of acceleration of.
Just Advent, like their tagline was race war.
Now they they didn't want a slow process to a white, ethno state.
They wanted to help it out through terrorist actions, more or less.
You can say how much of it was talk, how much of it was real, but.
That's essentially what their.
And Severes also through this, ended up writing several books that put forward this neo-Nazi, fascist ideology.
Uh Squires Tail was one of them.
Read it and put out a.
You know, like a neo-Nazi Zine.
Called noose rope culture was another one.
And on Iron March, this website that was partially founded by this man Adam often was formed, which is probably the one thing people have heard in connection to you iron much now.
Adam Waffen is a neo-Nazi terrorist organization that was founded on here.
Very similar to the ethos I just described.
Actually has blood on its hands. In 2017, five people were killed as a result of this terrorist cell of young men that were radicalized online and radicalized each other. It's almost a death cult, you could say, and so.
This is the type of ideology we're speaking about.
And so one of the interesting things in regards to slavery is Lindsey and him, according to quite a few people who were in the community and have written about it online, we're in an online relationship.
How serious it was, we don't really know.
It's she very seemingly hinted at it in her interviews with you and online there's been.
Talks that it was.
Kind of more important for her than it was for him and ended in a pretty bad way. And yeah, it's it's a very interesting connection and through you know, Iron March to this day it still has ramifications in the far right world. It was taken down in 2017 following.
The Atomwaffen attacks we don't.
Know if for.
Sure, it was a cause, but we know that's when it went down and it's inspired copycat forums, fascist forges, something that I've just recently reported on that one of the sections online is.
An entire archive of slab gross writing.
He's people haven't heard from him several years now, but he's still influential in this scene and this was somebody that even how serious or not, Lindsay had a relationship with and obviously had to spend at least a little bit of time with him.
Influential he was in.
Her thoughts of, you know, acceleration, of direct action, of actually picking up a gun and doing something, would be very interesting to see, sadly, right now.
We don't know, though.
JORDAN: Yeah, it I think more than anything it just kind of shows the circle that she was mixed up with online.
And a lot of people, I think, hear her talk about Nazism and and all this and think she's it's just like the ramblings of a lunatic.
But Lindsey was involved with a lot of people who really thought deeply about this stuff. And like you said, Slavo's interview in is a, you know, an influential figure in this whole movement and exactly as you said.
I don't know how close they were, but I know it's close enough that when they did split up, Lindsey basically.
A pretty intense campaign against his new girlfriend, that she the girlfriend he had after her.
And a lot of people online will have come across the different memes she made and stuff, you know, harassing this girl or whatever you want to call it.
But another thing too, and I don't know a lot about Atomwaffen, but I do know that the the the the style or the aesthetic.
They use is very similar to the way she was planning to dress like they wear the little skull mask that she had brought to Halifax.
I don't know if how she's connected or if she is with them, but I just to me it makes it seem.
Like, after reading your articles, it makes me feel even more uncomfortable about Lindsey's connection with, you know, the neo-Nazi movement. Like it seems much more real after reading what the the different things you wrote about these groups.
MACK: That's The thing is, they kind of speak in such a way that it doesn't really seem real.
Could unless you understand like they're vernacular.
They try and treat it almost in this kind of high level intellectual movement, like.
I I know what?
The term esoteric Hitlerism means, and that haunts me, that I have to know what that means because.
It and it's just.
And they also, yeah, as.
You're speaking, they have an.
Entire aesthetic called terror waves they call like.
Is how they refer to it.
It's it's this entire sub community.
It's this entire little subculture within themselves.
Uhm, I don't want to like connect it to like the punk scene or any sort.
Of music scene.
But it's almost similar to that.
Like they have their own way of speaking, they have their own kind of ideology, they have their own way.
Of dressing up their own hierarchies.
It's it's an interesting little movement if it wasn't.
So terrible, yeah.
JORDAN: And it's like when I think of Lindsay, like she was mixed up with these very, in my mind, very dangerous, extreme groups.
Then at the same time, she was mixed up with, you know, the Columbine there's like, it's just she managed to kind of weave herself into some pretty dysfunctional online communities, it seems.
And yeah, yeah.
And that's kind of what brings me to, I guess, the topic of your most recent article about Lindsay, the idea of people being radicalized through their exposure to these groups on the Internet.
So what could you just talk a bit about about your thoughts on that in your thoughts on?
The Internet connection with helping to radicalize someone like Lindsey.
MACK: So radicalization in the Internet is kind of a huge issue.
It's something that we're just now addressing and not even in regards to just.
A right wing extremism.
One group we've seen really, really utilize the Internet for radicalization really well is, you know, as Islamist extremists.
Isis is a perfect example of people that use the Internet to radicalize think of.
The young girl in Calgary who was radicalized in his own home and went to Syria and I believe he was killed that.
Are fighting for the Cal State.
What you have is you have these communities that you're able to create this echo chamber online around yourself and just through normalization.
Start to believe these ideas are real.
There's two major styles of recruitment into radicalization is active and passive online.
You can have active recruitment, which is going to be recruiters on Twitter and everything that are spreading their message that are talking to you that would be like, you know, come here, those are people on the floor.
From that are like, you know what, maybe you should read this book or watch this video online.
Read this thing by slow growth as we were talking about, but then you have passive recruitment which is think of.
Just a white power song on YouTube that somebody comes across and most of us, let's say 80.
Of us are going to say.
I don't like that.
Places all. Hell, let's not.
Let's report that 2020 more people might be like.
OK, well, you know what?
I don't believe in this.
Kind of interested, let me.
Just continue down this and.
Then it's going to keep going down until maybe there's one or.
Two, who are going to?
End up on iron margin fashion sports just through this radicalization.
And that's kind of what in your conversations with Lindsay seem to happen, seem to start with.
Just her coming across a.
Just coming across a picture on Deviantart.
And it wasn't even.
A national socialist?
Image it was.
This just this picture.
She liked and she liked it.
And she followed the author and it.
Turned out of all.
Things the author was a Nazi.
And she struck up a friendship with him.
And online, you know, you can be whatever you want to be and.
That's kind of.
How a woman with Lation background could end up being a neo-Nazi and.
Through this she sounds like she just got into online communities, which just.
It radicalization works through process of normalization.
And so just some more normal these ideas become.
The more you start to believe them, the more convincing they can be.
And that sure seems what happened to Lindsey.
JORDAN: Where you spend so much time, you know, hearing these stories and digging into this stuff.
What can be done to prevent this from happening? Like I'm thinking like you can shut down a site like Iron Forge, but there's 1000 more that are just going to pop up.
Like, how do you stop a vulnerable person from finding their way down that radical that you know, that radical rabbit hole and eventually gets sucked up in it?
Like, how can we stop this?
MACK: Well, that's exactly it is.
Actually, a lot of researchers describe the process of taking down these radicalization sites, these forms, you know, YouTube channels, secret Facebook groups, whatever.
You have it, it's a process.
It's almost like whack a mole. They report them, they they bring them to you know, either a hosting site, they bring them to YouTube and.
Sometimes YouTube or the hosting site or Facebook or whatever, we'll.
Get rid of them, but.
New ones will pop up and also you run the risk of sending these people more underground.
Maybe next time you won't find them and they're going to be more extreme and they're going to feel backed into a corner.
So research has proven that where you want to stop the radicalization process is the portion of time when they're just starting to get into it, when they're just kind of falling down the rabbit hole once you have people.
Decide on actions.
If you say that young man who went to Syria from Calgary once they have decided I'm joining this and have made concrete plans to do so, it's very difficult to.
Stop them and to dissuade them because they've made commitments.
It's the process.
It's the time before that when they're just starting to.
Watch the videos.
Just starting to read the literature.
Just starting to get in there and.
The way you.
Do that is something I don't think we've fully grasped yet.
There's been very interesting.
Thing kind of programs that have worked to stop this.
There's been people online that have made YouTube videos that show what life in the caliphate is really like for ISIS.
UM recruits and they used actually targeted ads to target people that were read.
Doing propaganda or and reading and watching videos to get these ads to them, to show them, you know what?
It's not like what they say.
Talk to us, we'll.
Get you through and in.
All other things.
Some groups have people undercover within these forums working.
You know, undercover on through keyboard of course.
But in these forums and I then got a cut trying.
To dissuade people from joining.
And so there's stuff like that, but it's a problem.
We're still struggling.
And there is, it's one of those ones where there.
Is no easy.
Answer There are things we can do.
And there's things that point to what make a person more likely to be radicalized.
One of them is distrust.
Uhm, which we're seeing a lot of these days, but.
It's the $1,000,000 question, right?
JORDAN: You were familiar with Lindsey story before you heard the multi part interview there on my prior episodes was there anything she she said that really surprised you about her views on you know race and how she came to form those views?
Like was there any part of that that really surprised you were really kind of backed up.
Anything kind of that you thought about radicalization?
MACK: It it was definitely not.
That different from other stories I've heard?
Uhm, it's definitely a very modern one, which makes it interesting and makes it something I think that we can learn from.
And kudos to you for providing that.
I think we can learn a lot from the conversation with her, but for the most part it's very similar to how a lot of modern radicalization.
Uhm, the interesting thing was how much of it was.
Pairing the neo-Nazi radicalization with this kind of death cult obsession with Columbine, that's very, very interesting to me and I hope somebody kind of takes the time to research.
I honestly think the biggest thing that surprised me was actually just an affectation.
How she spoke.
It was chilling.
She spoke about.
You know, firebombing a Halifax mall, shooting as many people as they can, and then James walking over with a knife and executing the rest of.
Them like I would speak about.
You know what I'm going to make tonight?
And it was just, I guess, the level of.
Dis attachment from the actions is something I typically hear when I speak to somebody that has been radicalized or somebody that has been D radicalized and speaking about their former actions, and it will never not be incredibly chilling to hear.
JORDAN: I want to end this episode by again dedicating the series to the person or persons responsible for the anonymous tip to Crime Stoppers.
Without your intervention, things certainly would have gone differently.
I'm covering a.
Foiled mass shooting plot and not the real thing.
And with that, we'll conclude this episode of night time.
JORDAN: * 8. Lindsay's Biggest Fan!?
Welcome back to an ongoing series exploring the life in crime of Lindsay Souvannarith, the young woman convicted of conspiracy to commit murder as a result of her role in the foiled Halifax Shopping Centre Valentine's Day shooting plot.
Although the last entry in the series was produced over a year ago, I stumbled upon something almost accidentally, that encouraged me to again revisit this case.
In short, I've seen now that Lindsay story or Lindsay Place in the world of mass murderer slash mass murderer wannabes has now come full circle.
Let me contextualize it like this.
Lindsay Souvannarith has made no secret about her obsession with the perpetrators of the Columbine High School massacre.
Lindsey, of course, was a member of the Columbine are subculture, which we learned as an online community who looks at the Columbine shooters as some sort of dark heroes.
But for Lindsay and her Co conspirator, James Gamble, this obsession didn't stay online.
In fact, nearly every aspect of their plan seemed to draw inspiration from what happened in Columbine, most notably the way Lindsay and James put great value and attention into how they would be remembered.
By future generations of people obsessed with mass murderers.
But fortunately for anyone who planned on spending Valentine's Day at the Halifax Shopping Center Food Court, Lindsey and James were much more interested in how they would look, what music they would play, and what photographs they take, then how they'd actually get to the mall with loaded firearms.
So for someone who's.
Not a member of these circles of mass murderer fandom.
You may think.
Lindsey and James are seen as failures, viewed more so as a pair who showcased a craving for a twisted form of attention than anything else.
Well, if you think that would be accurate, this episode may surprise you.
Lindsey Souvannarith, believe it or not, has fans.
I've personally received countless emails and messages from people hoping I'd be able to share some chapters of the book she sent me or pass along the Facebook.
Chat logs that are referenced in the past episodes.
Some of those messages seem to be born from curiosity, some were creepy, and a few of them were downright cringey.
But none of the authors of those emails or messages seem to have the passion or dedication to Lindsay Souvannarith that the young man we're going to meet shortly has.
The story behind this episode is quite simple.
One day on Twitter, I happened upon an account that used a photo of Lindsay Savannah Roth as the profile picture.
And when I clicked on their account, I saw that they almost exclusively post photos and content that seems to celebrate Lindsay.
I suppose it was.
A miniature version of the online shrine she seemed willing to kill for.
My first thought was.
Who the hell would make this?
But that thought was immediately followed up by I want to talk to whoever the hell would make this, and that's what we're about to do.
So let's get to it.
Tonight in this episode of night time, one of the tentacles of this twisted story comes full circle as we're joined by someone who may very well be Lindsey Savannah rants.
JORDAN: Heiko, I'm so glad you're joining me and being open about this.
This is going to be.
A interesting talk before we get into it, though.
Tell me just.
In a basic sense.
Who are you and where are you?
HEIKO:OK, so I read in Germany, it's like 4 in the morning here.
JORDAN: Oh my goodness, I had no idea I would have chose a different time.
You should have told me.
HEIKO: No, it's OK.
And I'm 17 years olds and I don't really know what to say.
JORDAN: Just a regular 17 year old from Germany who's up late at night talking to a Canadian podcast.
HEIKO: Yes, yeah.
JORDAN: I think that sums it up.
HEIKO: I think so too.
JORDAN: Well, let me jump right into it.
Why is it that you spend so much time and effort online discussing Lindsey Savannah wrath of all people?
What? What? What?
Led you to this?
HEIKO: It's a really great question.
You know, I think everything is like, message me about the podcast.
I've been like, really thinking about what to answer because I know this would be like the first question.
And honestly, I don't really know.
I just have this tendency to, like, when I find, like, this new topic that interests me, I just, like, get really, really intensely interested in it.
And then, like, I kind of lose my interest in it, like, after long.
But just why haven't really been active?
But it's just what I think.
But I think Indians knew so much about Lindsey and about finding out all this stuff about her.
She she was so very obviously like radicalized and.
Always talking about like, wanting to hurt people or if they're doing these very, like radical beliefs.
Just been talking about it for such a long time since I was like, what, 15 years old on her D&R then everything. And it was shared in like all.
Her social medias.
And it just kind of went past everyone his entire time until she decided to take that flight to Canada.
And it's just kind of crazy to like see everything in the build up to everything happened.
JORDAN: And you're interested in her like when you when you talk there, it's, you know, an interest in her, her story and in in what led her to this crime.
But I suspect that there's other sides of that to your interest in her 'cause you like, I think in some of your posts I.
That you would have a photo?
And did you not describe her as baby Lindsay in some of the photos?
HEIKO: I said they wouldn't do.
That was just me.
Like referring to her age?
cause, I like really old photos of her.
HEIKO: And it was just kind of like, baby owns like this feels like a very young kid and there's like 14 to 15 years or something like that.
JORDAN: OK, I wasn't sure.
HEIKO: Didn't, I didn't.
JORDAN: I wasn't sure how to.
HEIKO: Mean it in a romantic way.
JORDAN: OK, I didn't, I didn't know how to, how to read that, but would you like, do you see your interest in her as interest in a unique Crime Story or do you feel like it's a bit of a fandom 'cause?
Because when I look at what you put online, it's it seems to me to to lean more in the, like the fandom side of things.
HEIKO: I I definitely make means.
Well, there are lot.
But I feel like there's not many people who, like, are interested in her crime molecular case as much as I am.
So I really, really say that it's a family just because there's not many fans.
Simply it's maybe me and like some other mutuals that I have.
Uhm, I mean a lot about her.
I just say a lot of stupid **** like just for fun when talking about her.
But I don't.
I like to like separate how a lot of people think of like their true crime food.
So, like, oh, what's your ears so hot?
And I don't know.
And I love to bumby and, like, the Columbine shooters had nothing wrong.
And they're very like.
Detached from the actual crimes, and even though our name a lot of buttons like you like, I don't think about her the same way the other people.
JORDAN: Do OK.
HEIKO: So it's.
JORDAN: Not, but you're not the only one like I I that's like.
What surprises me is that these kind of fandoms or interested parties exist, and even with someone.
Like Lindsay, who I don't think is that well known.
She has people like you as far away as Germany who are collecting her photos and making memes.
And you know you have some of her photos with like poetry you laid over.
Them and stuff it looks like.
HEIKO: That was also just.
Kind of like a ship post, but.
It's very poetic ship post.
JORDAN: It is.
And how did you learn about her?
I'm wondering like.
In small Town Canada, this event happened.
How did do you recall how you found out about her so?
HEIKO: So at first, so yeah, I already had a two prime entrance in two columns and I was like 14 or something that's been in and out of like the communities because it's kind of crazy there.
But one of my friends basically was like, you should make an account on Twitter 'cause I didn't even besuited before that.
Uh, because there's a lot of true crime people though you can talk to.
And at the time I was posting mainly though, like JD areas and stuff and then one of our regions randomly.
Brought up Lindsay.
Like just happened to be like, it's kind of crazy that no combiner here knows her.
So I searched up and I instantly was like, wow, this is so crazy I want to learn more about.
And that's just kind of a little bit.
JORDAN: You just said Columbine, or I I just want to ask you, like, do you identify?
As a Columbine are, are you a member?
HEIKO: Oh no, I had my Columbine afraid when I.
Was like 14, but I.
I I'm not. I just.
Don't care about it anymore.
JORDAN: So you learn about Lindsey through this mutual.
You decide you want to read about her.
Do you recall when, like, is there any certain point it went from, oh, this is an interesting case to, you know, I'm going to set up a Facebook or a Twitter account based on her, and I'm going to make memes about her.
Like, can you sense how it changed from?
Learn the boat to really into for you.
HEIKO: I think it was, you know, first universe in there pops up beside the couple of abuse articles and.
And then I see like, oh, there's like entire kiwifarms threads and for chat and locale and so like, they have like, so many pages of people just talking about it and like links and archives and everything.
And I was like, damn, like, this is not just like.
Some random person that has no like record in like social media or anything like people have dig back to things that she comes in, which is like 15 and find all that really old stuff.
And I was just like, this is like a lot that I'm interested in and I like want to just kind of collect the stuff that I learn about so that I'll have it right here because I think it's a little interesting.
And I just kind of started putting all the information that I found on like my Twitter.
And that's just kind of hard one. It's like it's.
JORDAN: Like you went down, you found a rabbit hole, you went down it, and now you're lost in it.
You, you come.
Out of the rabbit hole with a Twitter account full of pictures of Lindsay Supawna Roth and related memes.
Is it like?
Can you think of what?
Like you read about.
Crime and mass murder.
And you know, you mentioned Jodi Arias and I've seen you post about a lot of different, you know, like a well known.
What do you think it is about Lindsey that that got you interested?
Like is there is there something about her or something you found that got you into it?
HEIKO: I think that makes me interested.
It's also the same thing that got me sitting like Jody is, you know, a lot of popular figures.
Any crime community or like?
He's like guys.
That like, commit this mass murder, or like serial killers.
And what specifically crazy about Lindsey is her radicalization and how, you know, she's been like radicalized on the Internet and see like this, not saving lives and select 15 or something.
It's just really crazy, 'cause.
I see a lot of, like, young white men kind of go down this rabbit hole, 'cause you see a lot.
Of like even recent, like people that like committed, like mass shootings, like in like in just in 2020 and stuff like that.
And before that, a lot of them have like histories of also being radicalized on the Internet until like very, very far right spaces.
And a lot of the end of being violent and actually participated in this violence because of how normalized those on the Internet, they actually take it to your life and.
Seeing someone like Lindsay, who's a mixed Asian woman, participate in this is really rare.
And for her, as someone who often will also be excluded from the spaces that she elected, political spaces that she wants to pardon.
You try and also bring this violence into the real world from off of the Internet.
It's really just like insulting me, you know?
JORDAN: Oh, absolutely.
And what do you make of her?
Nazi beliefs does.
That sway your fandom, or whatever fandom you may have.
HEIKO: Uhm, no, because I think everybody who always he knows her, knows what she believes in, that all of their neutrals that I had that we're also interested in here are like on the opposite end of the political spectrum, like another meeting that I had that I told that I was gonna be on this podcast, she's like a communist and she's really been into that.
Recently, she doesn't believe in that Lindsey believes him at all, and neither do I.
Just kind of normal.
JORDAN: Yeah, well, I guess if I don't know a lot about like the online radicalization with the far right, but everything that I learned about it, it seems to tell me that a vulnerable person looking for a group to fit in with is like, this is kind of like they those people, that sort of people are preyed upon.
Uh, a part of me thinks that Lindsay was like almost like an innocent victim that got scooped up into this belief system.
But on the other hand, in talking to her and reading the things she wrote, it's like she's really intelligent.
And this is yeah, I that's that's one aspect of her story that I could never really wrap my.
Head around and I was I was curious what what you and and your mutual thing.
When you say your mutual, it's like this is just a group of online friends you have that are also into these kind of stories.
HEIKO: Yeah, they're just people that like a travel in one Twitter and they fold it.
Back we don't.
Even really the end, we just kind of.
I don't know, Sheridan saying.
Entrance and climb, just come around, interact.
JORDAN: Exist in the same space and when you say an interest in crime like as a true crime related podcast or I have lots of friends that are into this sort of thing, but it just seems like what you put out online.
Is well past any line that we keep here.
Again, your seems to be more towards like like a fandom, not a celebration, but it's getting really close.
Like do you are you into crime or are you into criminals?
HEIKO: A little climb.
I just think making jokes local world is funny.
I mean, like, I mean, maybe he's impressing.
Like, what is she gonna do?
Like self Murphy about.
It like I'm going to make jokes.
Everything gets flooding.
JORDAN: Do you have like a favorite piece of writing or photo of something of Lindsay's that that you've come across?
HEIKO: I I don't think so.
I think everything is.
It has a unique place in my.
Heart in its own way. Right.
The reason I ask that is 'cause.
That's like that's the kind of an answer that a fan like fandom when I talk about the band ACDC.
If someone like what's your favorite ACDC song?
I would have to say like all of them.
They're all perfect.
Uhm, I just.
I can't imagine.
You view like someone viewing.
Someone in Lindsay's position the way I would view like ACDC or Led Zeppelin or something, but it's it's it's not as rare I guess as I would have thought it thought it was.
Like people when I've learned about the Columbine owners and people who look to the the Columbine shooters as like, kind of like folk heroes.
I then learned that that's not as unusual as I would have expected.
What about like, do people in your personal life outside of your connections on Twitter and whatnot?
Do people in your personal life know that you're into this stuff as much?
HEIKO: As you are, well, yeah, I all of my friends share these kind of interests and just.
You need to climb also, just like now, real life, unsatisfied and.
I don't know.
We just don't.
We don't really make like a big thing out of it.
I know a lot of people will like come across something sweater accounts and they'll be like, Oh my God, how can these people be so obsessed with these criminals and make all these meetings about them?
But I don't really like.
Really treat it like a big thing.
I just kind of like I just make a little funny posts in theater and then I log off.
I I wouldn't.
Consider myself like obsessed with it or anything.
Yeah, 'cause a lot of people will have come across.
Twitter accounts or, you know, whatever social media accounts like the one you have.
In my initial thought would have been, who the heck are these people?
But I would never have thought it was a 17 year old guy from Germany.
But like, if I went, let's say I show up in your bedroom like you do.
You have like pictures of this stuff on your wall or in like.
You know, like books of news clippings.
HEIKO: I do not actually.
The only pictures I have in my wallet supposed of black, pink and Robert Smith.
JORDAN: OK, Blackpink what is that?
HEIKO: K pop band.
JORDAN: OK, well, I know Robert Smith.
I don't know K pink, but I'm not.
I'm much more.
Into the cure, than I am K pop.
HEIKO: I love that show.
JORDAN: Now one thing that you have in common with Lindsey for sure is an interest in like the people behind these.
Lindsey famously is a ******** Columbine are was obsessed with Eric and Dylan.
The Columbine shooters.
You have a a pretty similar kind of interest in Lindsey, at least it seems to an extent.
Like do you see any connection between the way?
She would have looked at.
The Columbine shooters with the way you view her, or do you see yourself separate from that?
HEIKO: I can.
I can see how it can easily deal with that, but I think the big difference is that when Lindsey looked at the Columbine shootings, she generally thought.
Like maybe she thought this, maybe she knew he did something wrong, but like she in her head like that was fine with her.
Like she thought, like what they did was like a good thing.
And like, she generally, like, idolize these people and it was like, I understand them so much and I can, I can.
I'm excited about that and I want to be a true, but it's like, I don't think another way of Lindsey.
I understand that Lindsey is not necessarily the person, and that's it.
I don't try to excuse her behavior.
Other things that you said or the crimes that she's attempted to do, and I don't ever want to end up like her.
And that's it.
That's no different this.
JORDAN: Do you feel like Lindsay has any kind of future, like when she gets out of prison?
Eventually there's going to be people like you who.
Are following her.
And her interest in what she's doing?
Like are you?
Do you think this is going to be the kind of thing where you're going to follow her, her work, and read her?
Writing, you know, even into the future.
HEIKO: I think so.
I mean, I I won't.
I don't want to, like, obsessively stalk her everywhere.
Like, try to, like, squeeze every single bit information out of her.
Like if she does get out of jail and get like Internet access again and everything and that's how their accounts and stuff.
I don't want to like be on their apps all the.
Time and like.
Freak her out.
Like, I don't know, posting pictures of her when she was 15 and even, like, tell us about missing that clean, just like, I mean, I don't know.
I can't really.
Besides, it's organology.
It's going to happen to her what she's going to make out.
Of her life, and I feel like my actions will really depend on whatever she makes.
Out of her life.
JORDAN: This is a nice way to put it.
Before we wrap it up, is there anything else you want to say or share about your thoughts about Lindsey or your interest in this sort of thing or the work that goes into creating one of those kind of Twitter accounts that make people say what the hell is?
Up with that.
HEIKO: The true crime community, especially like Twitter and Tumblr.
Is insane and crazy and a lot to build there.
You're gonna go there and you're going to find a lot of different.
Like, you're not going to find what you're expecting.
You're not going to find masterminds and have like secret, like uncovered, like information about people, like you're just going to find.
A lot of crazy.
JORDAN: Well, let me, let me ask you that.
Because you you run.
With kind of.
The the kind of people that.
When I go on Twitter and Tumblr, I'm like, who are these people?
Who like the type of people that would connect with you on this kind of content about Lindsay Savannah Roth or Jodi Arias or Adam Lanza?
Like, who are these people?
Is it all, you know, younger people, or do you even find out what people ages are?
HEIKO: When you're talking to them, a lot of them, like honestly, just openly share it, I don't think.
I've ever had a mutual on Twitter dollars over the.
Age of 20.
One like, ever.
JORDAN: Word OK.
HEIKO: It's really just a lot of.
Like teams and you see a lot of the teams are like posting, like all their I related these criminals so much and I feel them so much and I feel so much empathy for them.
Like the ones you see doing all this stuff that people like think are the bad side of the chicken community.
It's just a lot.
Of like teams.
That are very lonely and very misunderstood and.
Try to find themselves in people who kind of learn the same positions as them and then just.
Want to be extreme?
JORDAN: People like people just like Lindsay 'cause.
It sounds like you're describing her like isolated and alone and on the Internet, you know, in these dark, twisted corners.
Uhm, but I guess it's a yeah, it's it's a complicated situation.
But Heiko, I I think you surprised me.
You you seem so grounded.
When I found your profile.
I I've like, what am I getting into?
What did like, if you had to think of what divides you from the people that do this sort of thing or get into the sort of things that you're involved in, like Lindsey, and then take the next step and try to commit a crime, like what would separate you from those sorts of people?
HEIKO: You know a lot of people there, they they started finger blood.
It's less and less.
Important they see this as a real thing because they get so, like desensitized to seeing people making it.
Like a joke.
And I feel like I guess you can assume that I'm kind of guilty of that as well, but also I don't want to go down the path where I can't separate these real events from fiction anymore.
I like I I purposefully get myself away from it 'cause.
When I was like 14, I was like 14 years old and like, found Columbine or Tumblr.
And I had that mindset.
It's just like I was very young and I'm glad that I would grew out of it.
I think I really just like matured out of it back the time.
I also saw Columbine more as like this like.
Piece of fiction instead of a real event.
And now when I think back to how I used to.
Like fictionalize these two real men.
It's it's insane to me how at the time I didn't think of it as like a real event and I feel like it.
I don't want to be that.
I don't want to.
I I don't want to treat their pain and trauma as something like it didn't really exist, you know?
JORDAN: Yeah, well, that's.
I'm going to end.
With that, that was like a perfect note to.
End our recording on OK, one second.
If she like she she hears my podcast 'cause.
It's aired on the radio where her prison is.
HEIKO: Oh Lord.
JORDAN: Would you have anything to say to her if you could send her a message?
HEIKO: I thought about that also lot and I don't know, I just.
I hope I'm going to say this like in any perspective of things to hearing this, I'm going to speak.
Directly to her.
I hope that we value those, maybe a miserable person.
And I hope that the way how you look at life and you know how you look at other people, doesn't make you feel terrible.
Want to come out of jail?
And once you have the opportunity to put your life back on your feet, I hope you generally take that opportunity and don't let this.
The romanticisation of violence and hatred take over your bed because obviously it's not worth it, wasn't worth it for James, and it's not really good for you.
I know that.
JORDAN: I want to again end this episode by dedicating this series to the person or persons responsible for submitting the anonymous tip to Crime Stoppers.
Without your intervention, this would have certainly gone down differently.
Thanks to you, I'm here talking about a foiled mass shooting plot.
And as I've said before many times, I would very much like to speak with you privately and anonymously.
You can e-mail me at nighttime podcast at Gmail com and rest assured, any message you send will stay between us.
And with that we'll conclude this episode of night time.
But before I do, I want to end with thanks, a big thank you to Heiko for openly sharing their story and their thoughts with us.
Heiko, although you're into some strange stuff, sound a lot more with it than I imagine I would have as a 17 year old.
Stay safe out there.
JORDAN: There are people who may commit a crime to find adoration from people like you.
Uhm, do you think about that side of it?
Or you're just or you just like, **** it, this is funny.
HEIKO: I think like if somebody is like generally at the point where they will.
Consider acting out even crimes because they see or true crime community members, just like talking about some of the criminals that they're interested in.
They already needed help to begin with.
Obviously, I feel like it's not easy.
It's not hard for me to acknowledge that.
No matter how much share our post about Lindsay or collect pictures of her or information about her, I obviously know.
There's no way to excuse that she's done and what she's.
Attempted to do.
And I I make it pretty clear.
My account, I think, and I try to make up for the client already, just like and I already put in, I don't condone and I'm literally on the opposite end of the political spectrum is Lindsey.
I don't want anybody to think but but I think that which is fun or what she believes in this done if they genuinely feel.
As it's getting like a community or like a fandom.
Encouraging someone to like hurt other people.
They already had a problem.
To deal with.
Because most like no normal person that that doesn't struggle with their life and doesn't already struggle and doesn't really have something wrong with their brain decides to hurt people on like the basis of seeing like a true crime community.
And that's what.
I think at least.